BYU Rape Awareness Conference

[bsjkki]

My concern is this policy will make it harder for victims of sexual assault to report.  Most sexual assaults already go unreported.  

http://www.umd.edu/ocrsm/files/Why-Is-Sexual-Assault-Under-Reported.pdf

The original link contains many first hand accounts of what was said by the Title IX coordinator at the BYU conference and how it was interpreted by those in attendance.  It also contains accounts of students who reported their assault and how they were treated by the Honor Code Office.

I find Southern Virginia's amnesty policy very reasonable.  It had occurred to me how difficult it would be to get witnesses willing to support your charges, if they too were in violation of the Honor Code.

http://svu.edu/academics/catalog/titleix/

Amnesty

To encourage reporting of Title IX violations, anyone who reports sexual misconduct, either as a witness or complainant, will not be subject to disciplinary action by the University for their own personal use of alcohol or drugs at or near the time of the incident, so long as those actions did not, or do not place anyone else at risk regarding their health and safety.

 

[Tacenda]

57 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

My concern is this policy will make it harder for victims of sexual assault to report.  Most sexual assaults already go unreported.  

http://www.umd.edu/ocrsm/files/Why-Is-Sexual-Assault-Under-Reported.pdf

The original link contains many first hand accounts of what was said by the Title IX coordinator at the BYU conference and how it was interpreted by those in attendance.  It also contains accounts of students who reported their assault and how they were treated by the Honor Code Office.

I find Southern Virginia's amnesty policy very reasonable.  It had occurred to me how difficult it would be to get witnesses willing to support your charges, if they too were in violation of the Honor Code.

http://svu.edu/academics/catalog/titleix/

Amnesty

To encourage reporting of Title IX violations, anyone who reports sexual misconduct, either as a witness or complainant, will not be subject to disciplinary action by the University for their own personal use of alcohol or drugs at or near the time of the incident, so long as those actions did not, or do not place anyone else at risk regarding their health and safety.

 

Bravo to Southern Virginia!  This school has a lot of the same standards BYU has, hope BYU takes note!! 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Tacenda

[Storm Rider]

The daughter of a dear friend from my home town asked me to pick his daughter up and take her to BYU in Provo for her freshman year.  It was an exciting term for this young lady to come from the south and be in Utah - BYU even and get to know the saints in an environment where she would not be ostracized or belittled for her standards.  She gets to her apartment and meets her room mates.  Upon opening the refridgerator she sees a six pack of beer.  One roommate apologizes and asks, "that will not be a problem will it?"  

My friend's daughter lasted two weeks before she removed herself from school, got on a plane and returned to the south.  Why?  Because there are students that ignore, blatantly abuse the Honor Code of BYU.  If a student, any student, is going to attend BYU and does not observe the Honor Code they should be expelled to 1) protect other students who just want to attend a university that has a high standard, 2)  too many students are turned away from attending.  If you don't want to live by the standards of BYU then get out, go elsewhere.

A rape is one thing.  Violating the Honor Code is something else. If a student does not live by the standards they need to be removed from BYU or any other private school with a similar standard.  It does not matter who the violation is discovered.  A rapist should be punished to the fullest extent of the law without remorse.  If you violate the Honor Code at BYU then you should either withdraw or be expelled.  Too many want that opportunity to attend to allow those who are so careless and choose to ignore their promise to observe the Honor Code.  

Just because you were raped, robbed, beat, etc. does not absolve you of your own violations and/or crimes.   

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The daughter of a dear friend from my home town asked me to pick his daughter up and take her to BYU in Provo for her freshman year.  It was an exciting term for this young lady to come from the south and be in Utah - BYU even and get to know the saints in an environment where she would not be ostracized or belittled for her standards.  She gets to her apartment and meets her room mates.  Upon opening the refridgerator she sees a six pack of beer.  One roommate apologizes and asks, "that will not be a problem will it?"  

My friend's daughter lasted two weeks before she removed herself from school, got on a plane and returned to the south.  Why?  Because there are students that ignore, blatantly abuse the Honor Code of BYU.  If a student, any student, is going to attend BYU and does not observe the Honor Code they should be expelled to 1) protect other students who just want to attend a university that has a high standard, 2)  too many students are turned away from attending.  If you don't want to live by the standards of BYU then get out, go elsewhere.

A rape is one thing.  Violating the Honor Code is something else. If a student does not live by the standards they need to be removed from BYU or any other private school with a similar standard.  It does not matter who the violation is discovered.  A rapist should be punished to the fullest extent of the law without remorse.  If you violate the Honor Code at BYU then you should either withdraw or be expelled.  Too many want that opportunity to attend to allow those who are so careless and choose to ignore their promise to observe the Honor Code.  

Just because you were raped, robbed, beat, etc. does not absolve you of your own violations and/or crimes.   

I agree, but they should be separate, and as bsjkki posted above, Southern Virginia has solved the problem in my eyes with the Amnesty statement.  

I feel bad for your friend's daughter's experience, wish she had found other roommates and given it a second chance.  But it's quite shocking to hear really that students do this so blatently (six pack of beer in the fridge), I guess I'm naive.  I totally agree that students should live the honor code they signed up to obey, including those that were raped.  But I draw the line anytime that because of someone breaking the honor code, rape is less than.  Not saying you are saying this is so though. ETA:  The rape in marriage might parallel to this problem.  Many states had or still have laws that make the crime of rape less so if one is married.  But I believe a woman can be raped by her husband.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Tacenda

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The daughter of a dear friend from my home town asked me to pick his daughter up and take her to BYU in Provo for her freshman year.  It was an exciting term for this young lady to come from the south and be in Utah - BYU even and get to know the saints in an environment where she would not be ostracized or belittled for her standards.  She gets to her apartment and meets her room mates.  Upon opening the refridgerator she sees a six pack of beer.  One roommate apologizes and asks, "that will not be a problem will it?"  

My friend's daughter lasted two weeks before she removed herself from school, got on a plane and returned to the south.  Why?  Because there are students that ignore, blatantly abuse the Honor Code of BYU.  If a student, any student, is going to attend BYU and does not observe the Honor Code they should be expelled to 1) protect other students who just want to attend a university that has a high standard, 2)  too many students are turned away from attending.  If you don't want to live by the standards of BYU then get out, go elsewhere.

A rape is one thing.  Violating the Honor Code is something else. If a student does not live by the standards they need to be removed from BYU or any other private school with a similar standard.  It does not matter who the violation is discovered.  A rapist should be punished to the fullest extent of the law without remorse.  If you violate the Honor Code at BYU then you should either withdraw or be expelled.  Too many want that opportunity to attend to allow those who are so careless and choose to ignore their promise to observe the Honor Code.  

Just because you were raped, robbed, beat, etc. does not absolve you of your own violations and/or crimes.   

Unfortunately it appears that enforcing the honor code with that degree of strictness might be leading to rapists going unpunished. Gnats are being scrupulously avoided, while camels are being swallowed whole. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Gray

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The daughter of a dear friend from my home town asked me to pick his daughter up and take her to BYU in Provo for her freshman year.  It was an exciting term for this young lady to come from the south and be in Utah - BYU even and get to know the saints in an environment where she would not be ostracized or belittled for her standards.  She gets to her apartment and meets her room mates.  Upon opening the refridgerator she sees a six pack of beer.  One roommate apologizes and asks, "that will not be a problem will it?"  

My friend's daughter lasted two weeks before she removed herself from school, got on a plane and returned to the south.  Why?  Because there are students that ignore, blatantly abuse the Honor Code of BYU.

How sad.  Why would she allow someone else's decisions to cause her to quit school and return home?  I see that she was in a bad situation, but it seems there were other alternatives rather than doing something so extreme.  I wonder if there were other factors?

I'd advise my son or daughter to just worry about their own commitments to keeping the standards and honor code.  That's all they really have control over, IMO.  I do see that roommates can have some negative affects, but she most likely is  going to deal with this (or something similar) anywhere she goes to school or works (different standards and morals, etc.).

[bsjkki]

23 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The daughter of a dear friend from my home town asked me to pick his daughter up and take her to BYU in Provo for her freshman year.  It was an exciting term for this young lady to come from the south and be in Utah - BYU even and get to know the saints in an environment where she would not be ostracized or belittled for her standards.  She gets to her apartment and meets her room mates.  Upon opening the refridgerator she sees a six pack of beer.  One roommate apologizes and asks, "that will not be a problem will it?"  

My friend's daughter lasted two weeks before she removed herself from school, got on a plane and returned to the south.  Why?  Because there are students that ignore, blatantly abuse the Honor Code of BYU.  If a student, any student, is going to attend BYU and does not observe the Honor Code they should be expelled to 1) protect other students who just want to attend a university that has a high standard, 2)  too many students are turned away from attending.  If you don't want to live by the standards of BYU then get out, go elsewhere.

A rape is one thing.  Violating the Honor Code is something else. If a student does not live by the standards they need to be removed from BYU or any other private school with a similar standard.  It does not matter who the violation is discovered.  A rapist should be punished to the fullest extent of the law without remorse.  If you violate the Honor Code at BYU then you should either withdraw or be expelled.  Too many want that opportunity to attend to allow those who are so careless and choose to ignore their promise to observe the Honor Code.  

Just because you were raped, robbed, beat, etc. does not absolve you of your own violations and/or crimes.   

My son also experienced this.  He was a newly returned missionary and his roommates blatantly drank and violated the honor code.  He really struggled coming home from his mission and this experience at BYU-I did not help. As a mom, you hope roommates will be positive influences but they contributed to his struggles.  He made many mistakes and eventually got kicked out of BYU-I and he deserved it. (His roommates did not get kicked out.)  He struggled with the repentance process and is currently inactive but in all other aspects of life, he is doing great.  I hope he will eventually return to activity because he still has a testimony but finds going back to church difficult.  I honestly think he is too frightened of going to a disciplinary council.  Even with this experience, I feel the importance of providing a safe environment for rape victims to report and rapists being expelled and prosecuted, is more important than worrying about Honor Code violations.

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Yes, that's about as much like what I wrote as a carrot is like an orange.

The "kid" shouldn't have run out onto the road. The drunk driver shouldn't have been driving drunk.

The fact that the "kid" got run over by a drunk driver doesn't mean that the decision to run out onto the road is magically transformed into an excellent one.

In exactly the same way, the fact that the drunk driver ran over a "kid" doesn't mean that he's now a "Victim[TM]" who should be excused for driving drunk.

Are we clear now?

 

I am just merely stating that on a basic and common sense set of values.  Blaming victims is wrong,

[Jeanne]

13 hours ago, strappinglad said:

If the kid runs out into the road at night and gets hit by a perfectly sober driver who was driving well within the speed limit, will the police/court take the circumstances into account any differently that if the driver had been speeding drunk on the clear sunny day? Should they? The kid is still dead so NO. Right?

Right...and I really made a bad analogy here..but victims make mistakes..accidents happen..but basic accountability belongs to the one who broke the law.

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Unfortunately it appears that enforcing the honor code with that degree of strictness might be leading to rapists going unpunished. Gnats are being scrupulously avoided, while camels are being swallowed whole. 

Yet not reinforcing the honor code might create more opportunities for rape.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Jeanne]

Although I feel for the daughter of Stormrider's friend, I find it hard to believe that a six pack of beer would scare her away so quickly.  She is in for a rude awakening in this world...wish she had stayed and just stuck to her guns.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

It's clear to me that that something like the honor code policy would have a chilling effect on the reporting of rapes on campus. Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew.

Who is arguing that punishing the victim is more important than justice and safety? This is a straw man.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

Really?  The "results" below (from a quote in this thread) are a rape:

"If you make poor choices you have a responsibility for at least some degree of the results.  You are not innocent; you are complicit in the results."

I understand how you read it that way. Storm rider has explained what he meant.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Daniel Peterson]

On April 10, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Tacenda said:

 ETA:  I read the BBC article about BYU's Honor Code.  I don't think I'd dare send my daughter to that school after hearing about it.  

 

You're free, of course, to do whatever you like.

 

But the notion that BYU is a more dangerous place than other colleges or universities -- such that your daughter would be safer attending one of them in preference to enrolling at BYU -- is, so far as I can tell, simply and spectacularly wrong.  I believe that the statistics bear me out in saying that BYU is one of the safest college campuses in the United States.

[Gray]

53 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Yet not reinforcing the honor code might create more opportunities for rape.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

What is the honor code doing to prevent rape? We have laws on the books to punish rapists already. But that doesn't help if rape goes unreported. 

[Gray]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Who is arguing that punishing the victim is more important than justice and safety? This is a straw man.

Speaking of straw men, I never said anything resembling that. I think the unintended consequence is that rapists may be going unpunished because BYU is too strict about its honor code. I'm sure no one wants that outcome, but it's a potential unintended consequence. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Gray

[Sleeper Cell]

20 minutes ago, Gray said:

What is the honor code doing to prevent rape? We have laws on the books to punish rapists already. But that doesn't help if rape goes unreported.

As I pointed out earlier, it takes away the “mutual consent” defense -- at least as far as BYU is concerned.  It also strongly discourages drinking, illegal drug use, and other activities which make rape more likely to occur.

[Gray]

51 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said:

As I pointed out earlier, it takes away the “mutual consent” defense -- at least as far as BYU is concerned.  It also strongly discourages drinking, illegal drug use, and other activities which make rape more likely to occur.

I guess it would be good to have some data that those kinds of policies reduce rape likelihood. Maybe they do.

In any case, this isn't really about trying to get rid of the honor code. I think the concern is applying it intelligently so that rape victims are encouraged to speak up rather than stay silent. 

[toon]

23 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

That is what makes this so puzzling.  People find it perfectly acceptable to punish a rapist (I am one of these people - I think a rapist should lose all ability to rape another individual without exception), but they find it repugnant that a survivor will be punished NOT FOR THE RAPE, but for what she may have been doing wrong prior to the rape.  It is as if when one is a rape survivor you are immediately absolved of all wrong.

The topic is so emotional that the mere mention of  the victim being culpable of wrong doing merits  the accuser of immediate burning at the stake!  Why?  

Being a rapist is one thing and violating the honor code is another.  Because you got raped  does not mean you did not violate the honor code?  Why is this so difficult to grasp? 

It's not difficult to grasp.  It's that the disparity between the two acts is so great, and the fact that the rape victim has already suffered so much, that it makes little sense to pursue a relatively minor honor code violation.  And as a policy decision, criminally prosecuting and punishing rape outweighs any benefit gained by independently enforcing an honor code violation.  As a further policy decision, independently punishing a honor code violation likely has a silence the victim effect.

My kids knew that if they found themselves in a dangerous or otherwise bad situation that they needed to get out of, say at a party that had gotten out of control, they could also call me and have me pick them up, no questions asked.  I never had to do it.

My dad once had to pick me up at the police station after my friends and I had been caught drinking and having shopping cart races late at night behind a grocery store.  He never said a word to me about it -- just silence.  I suspect he recognized I had already had enough.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Daniel Peterson said:

 

You're free, of course, to do whatever you like.

 

But the notion that BYU is a more dangerous place than other colleges or universities -- such that your daughter would be safer attending one of them in preference to enrolling at BYU -- is, so far as I can tell, simply and spectacularly wrong.  I believe that the statistics bear me out in saying that BYU is one of the safest college campuses in the United States.

A comparative:  http://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/utah-state-university/student-life/crime/#

Our subject:  http://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/brigham-young-university-provo/student-life/crime/

There is no listing for BYUI because of the robust on-line undergrad programs skewing any results.

Since those three schools have the majority of LDS students, you aren't going to do much better than yBu's A- and USU's A ratings for safety.

Herr Professor Doktor Peterson is, as inevitably as always, correct.

[mtomm]

Ironically, using "Victim[TM]" is a very good example rape culture. 

Quote

 it’s situations in which sexual assault, rape, and general violence are ignored, trivialized, normalized, or made into jokes.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

11 minutes ago, mtomm said:

Ironically, using "Victim[TM]" is a very good example rape culture. 

 

That's a rather typically vile accusation.

At least, it would be if there were actually such a thing as "rape culture."

Which there is not. "Rape culture" is a fictitious phenomenon, fabricated for the purpose of promoting a moral panic.

Furthermore, as everyone who can read English can see, I in no sense ignored, trivialized, normalized, or made into jokes any rape, sexual assault or other violent behaviour.

As everyone who can read English can see, I in fact ignored, trivialized, normalized, and made into jokes the absurd "Victim" ideology that underpins your witch hunt.

[Yirgacheffe]

50 minutes ago, USU78 said:

A comparative:  http://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/utah-state-university/student-life/crime/#

Our subject:  http://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/brigham-young-university-provo/student-life/crime/

There is no listing for BYUI because of the robust on-line undergrad programs skewing any results.

Since those three schools have the majority of LDS students, you aren't going to do much better than yBu's A- and USU's A ratings for safety.

Herr Professor Doktor Peterson is, as inevitably as always, correct.

" Colleges with low amounts of reported crime are valued as being safer"

 

If woman are afraid to report rape, then it will have low amounts of reported rape.

[cinepro]

This is an odd conversation.  The "disagreement" seems to be the classic balance between mercy and justice.  If a student is sexually assaulted on campus (however rare that event might be), does the fact that they may face disciplinary actions based on the location or circumstances of the assault add undue punishment, or decrease the likelihood that the assaulter will be reported?

It seems the obvious solution is to accept the assault itself as the most extreme punishment for the victim's other infractions, and therefore justice has been satisfied. 

[Russell C McGregor]

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

My concern is this policy will make it harder for victims of sexual assault to report.  Most sexual assaults already go unreported.

I keep hearing assertions like this. But I wonder how credible they are. If "most sexual assaults already go unreported" then how would anyone know?

A moral panic is an extraordinarily dangerous phenomenon, and it's unprovable assertions like the above that feed it.

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

http://www.umd.edu/ocrsm/files/Why-Is-Sexual-Assault-Under-Reported.pdf

I've read the link. It's one page of assertions that raise more questions than they answer.

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

The original link contains many first hand accounts of what was said by the Title IX coordinator at the BYU conference and how it was interpreted by those in attendance.  It also contains accounts of students who reported their assault and how they were treated by the Honor Code Office.

I find Southern Virginia's amnesty policy very reasonable.  It had occurred to me how difficult it would be to get witnesses willing to support your charges, if they too were in violation of the Honor Code.

http://svu.edu/academics/catalog/titleix/

Amnesty

To encourage reporting of Title IX violations, anyone who reports sexual misconduct, either as a witness or complainant, will not be subject to disciplinary action by the University for their own personal use of alcohol or drugs at or near the time of the incident, so long as those actions did not, or do not place anyone else at risk regarding their health and safety.

 

OTOH, A number of recent high-profile rape accusations were subsequently withdrawn, in circumstances that made it seem likely that they were fabricated. Telling people that an accusation of sexual assault covers a multitude of sins incentivizes false reporting and seems like a fairly reliable way to increase the number and frequency of false reports.