Russell C McGregor Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 11 minutes ago, cinepro said: It's like poetry. Actually Cinepro, I've given your (ahem) "analogy" a bit more thought. Here is something that might actually resemble what has been discussed: Quote 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Well, since thou art a Victim, I won't say anything as insensitive as to tell thee to sin no more. Because that would just victimize thee all over again and enable the "rape culture" that those thine accusers are guilty of perpetuating. Has the penny dropped yet? 1
Storm Rider Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 (edited) 15 hours ago, JulieM said: Yes, but not responsible for being raped. The victim is 0% responsible, do you agree? The rapist is 100% responsible for the rape, do you agree? JulieM, that is the part of the this conversation where it appears that emotion takes over. The moment someone mentions using your common sense and not putting yourself in danger or in a risky situation, advocates cry foul, feign horror, and then accuse anyone that dares think such a thing as if they also think that a young lady is responsible for her own rape. A rapist is responsible for a rape - full stop. A victim and a survivor is clearly responsible for her own choices - she is not responsible for being raped, but she remains responsible for her own choices. When discussing this topic it seems like there is a mental block from addressing the two issues at the same time. I don't see any confusion between the two, but I always get the impression that some individuals have been programmed to say the same things without ever listening to what is being said. Why is so hard to talk about using your common sense, refrain from behaviors that increase the probability of bad things happening, etc.? Edited April 11, 2016 by Storm Rider 3
strappinglad Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 If the kid runs out into the road at night and gets hit by a perfectly sober driver who was driving well within the speed limit, will the police/court take the circumstances into account any differently that if the driver had been speeding drunk on the clear sunny day? Should they? The kid is still dead so NO. Right? 2
Russell C McGregor Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: JulieM, that is the part of the this conversation where it appears that emotion takes over. The moment talks about using your common sense and not putting yourself in danger or in a risky situation advocates cry foul feign horror and then accuse anyone that dares think such a thing as if they are responsible for their own rape. A rapist is responsible for a rape - full stop. A victim and a survivor is clearly responsible for her own choices - she is not responsible for being raped, but she remains responsible for her own choices. When discussing this topic it seems like there is a mental block from addressing the two issues at the same time. I don't see confusion between the two, but I always get the impression that individuals have been programmed to say the same things without ever listening to what is being said. Why is so hard to talk about using your common sense, refrain from behaviors that increase the probability of bad things happening, etc.? Simple: because that is the mindset that creates a "rape culture." Note that the imaginary "rape culture" isn't actually about rape; it's about the idea that women's choices have consequences, and sometimes those consequences aren't uniformly positive. So if you advise women not to go to certain parts of town alone after dark, then you are really saying that they are "asking for it" and that they "deserve to be raped," or something. The fact that such thoughts never entered your mind has nothing to do with anything. You're only a male, barely half a step removed from the level of a brute beast, so you don't understand your own thoughts. Your denial merely proves that you're trying to keep women in subjection. 4
Russell C McGregor Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 21 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I could see this being discussed in the discussion forum if someone wants to post it there. There is a rape epidemic going on over all campuses in America not just BYU and the problem is they try to solve it internally instead of going with outside police. Is there really a "rape epidemic" or is it a media beat-up? 1
Russell C McGregor Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 6 hours ago, smac97 said: I think this is inflammatory and unfair. Consider the source...
Bernard Gui Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 1 hour ago, JulieM said: Yes, but no one is responsible for a rape other than the rapist. They alone are responsible for this horrible act. I hate the insinuations here on this thread that the victim of a rape is at all responsible for being violated and raped. I just reread all the previous posts. No one on this thread has insinuated the victim is responsible for being violated and raped. 2
Danzo Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 1 hour ago, JulieM said: Yes, but not responsible for being raped. The victim is 0% responsible, do you agree? The rapist is 100% responsible for the rape, do you agree? The rapist is 100% responsible for his or her actions, the victim is 100% responsible for his or her actions, do you agree? 1
JulieM Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 4 minutes ago, Danzo said: The rapist is 100% responsible for his or her actions, the victim is 100% responsible for his or her actions, do you agree? Yes, 100%
Russell C McGregor Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 Just now, JulieM said: Yes, 100% So is it okay to warn women to stay away from dangerous places at dangerous times? If a woman does something wrong (yes, I know it's a difficult concept to grasp, but let's pretend it's possible just for the sake of argument) should she be held accountable for her wrongdoing? If a woman does something wrong and then someone else does something wrong to her, does that change her degree of accountability for her wrongdoing?
Yirgacheffe Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 11 hours ago, bsjkki said: https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=155 4. Victims of Sexual Misconduct In order to protect their own and others’ safety, individuals who believe they have been subjected to Sexual Misconduct should make a report even if they have simultaneously been involved in other violations of university policy, such as use of alcohol or drugs. Violations of university policy or the Church Educational System Honor Code do not make a victim at fault for sexual violence or other forms of Sexual Misconduct and will be addressed separately from the Sexual Misconduct allegation. Students know if they are sexually assaulted while breaking any other honor code violation, they will be investigated for it. Most likely, all victims of sexual assault will be interrogated to find out if they broke any rules. That is one of the cruelest things I've ever heard. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 1 minute ago, Yirgacheffe said: That is one of the cruelest things I've ever heard. You do realise that the second highlighted portion is just the poster's own assumption, and does not reflect anything in his source, don't you?
Bernard Gui Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said: That is one of the cruelest things I've ever heard. That final quote is not part of the BYU policy, but a comment by bskki. I agree, it is harsh and insensitive. It could be reworded to represent more accurately and humanely what would be the procedure. It is also an incomplete quote of the policy. Here is the rest that was omitted: Quote Individuals who believe they have been victims of sexual harassment may seek to resolve the issue privately under the informal resolution provisions of this policy or may report the issue under the formal resolution provisions provided herein. Individuals who believe they have been victims of sexual violence, or those who have suffered severe or pervasive sexual harassment creating a hostile environment, should always come forward and make a report under the formal resolution provisions.
JulieM Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: So is it okay to warn women to stay away from dangerous places at dangerous times? If a woman does something wrong (yes, I know it's a difficult concept to grasp, but let's pretend it's possible just for the sake of argument) should she be held accountable for her wrongdoing? If a woman does something wrong and then someone else does something wrong to her, does that change her degree of accountability for her wrongdoing? Each one of us are accountable for the decisions we make and the actions we take. A rapist is the one who is responsible for raping their victim. What does a woman doing "something wrong" have to do with another person making a decision to inflict harm or commit rape? Edited April 11, 2016 by JulieM 1
Russell C McGregor Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 3 minutes ago, JulieM said: Each one of us are accountable for the decisions we make and the actions we take. A rapist is the one who is responsible for raping their victim. What does a woman doing "something wrong" have to do with another person making a decision to inflict harm or commit rape? Nothing. What does a person making a decision to inflict harm or commit rape have to do with a woman doing "something wrong?" (Only hypothetically, of course.) 1
JulieM Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: Nothing. What does a person making a decision to inflict harm or commit rape have to do with a woman doing "something wrong?" (Only hypothetically, of course.) Nothing, (hypothetically or not).
Tacenda Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 2 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said: Is there really a "rape epidemic" or is it a media beat-up? http://fox13now.com/2016/04/10/professor-police-chief-discuss-next-steps-after-majority-of-rape-kits-in-utah-went-unprocessed/ Take a look at this report. One of the highest in the country, is what they said. Lack of testing or prosecuting is downright criminal. 1
Danzo Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 52 minutes ago, JulieM said: Each one of us are accountable for the decisions we make and the actions we take. A rapist is the one who is responsible for raping their victim. What does a woman doing "something wrong" have to do with another person making a decision to inflict harm or commit rape? I have found that often, ones behavior can affect other people's behavior. It might not be fair, but it seems people work that way.
Russell C McGregor Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 3 hours ago, JulieM said: Nothing, (hypothetically or not). Okay. So we are agreed that a woman's misdeeds don't diminish the culpability of a rapist. We are also agreed that a rape or sexual assault does not diminish a woman's culpability for anything else she might have done wrong. So what are we arguing about, exactly? Given (and it is a given) that absolutely nobody has tried to argue or imply that a rape victim is responsible for the actions of a rapist?
Russell C McGregor Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: http://fox13now.com/2016/04/10/professor-police-chief-discuss-next-steps-after-majority-of-rape-kits-in-utah-went-unprocessed/ Take a look at this report. One of the highest in the country, is what they said. Lack of testing or prosecuting is downright criminal. Thank you, Tacenda. I've read the link. Now what relevance does it have to my question? If we accept what the linked article says, Utah law enforcement have dropped the ball on sexual assault, and are now trying to get their act together. Which does not address my question. Is there really a "rape epidemic?" Or is it all just a media beat-up? Or perhaps a moral panic? http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-28/moral-panics-won-t-end-campus-rape http://time.com/100091/campus-sexual-assault-christina-hoff-sommers/
JulieM Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said: Given (and it is a given) that absolutely nobody has tried to argue or imply that a rape victim is responsible for the actions of a rapist? Nope, not a given. Here's one quote from this thread stating the rape victim shares responsibility for the rape and they are complicit in the rape (a rape is the action of a rapist.) "My point is that everyone knows that rape is absolutely, without exception evil, wrong, and unforgivable. However, to absolve the survivor of all guilt seems to run against common sense. I always taught my children that they were responsible for their choices and actions. If they put themselves in situations where they would make poor choices who is at fault? That was a common question in our home. If you make poor choices you have a responsibility for at least some degree of the results. You are not innocent; you are complicit in the results." Edited April 11, 2016 by JulieM 2
Storm Rider Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 8 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said: That is one of the cruelest things I've ever heard. Case #1 - You were raped last night? Yes Can you tell me the circumstances leading up to the rape? Yes, I was walking to my dorm room and someone grabbed me from behind, hit me over the head, dragged me into a secluded location and raped me. - No problems, no gnashing of teeth, no cruelty. Case #2 - You were raped last night? Yes Can you tell me the circumstances leading up to the rape? Yes, I was out partying, drinking beer and smoking pot, and this guy I did not know raped me. CRUELTY and evil actions on behalf of the BYU police. What? Where does this bizarre projection of wrong doing come from? Either way the individual is going to be asked about the circumstances leading up to the rape. I think we have a far different understanding of what is and what is not cruel.
JulieM Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I just reread all the previous posts. No one on this thread has insinuated the victim is responsible for being violated and raped. Really? The "results" below (from a quote in this thread) are a rape: "If you make poor choices you have a responsibility for at least some degree of the results. You are not innocent; you are complicit in the results." Edited April 11, 2016 by JulieM 1
Gray Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 It's clear to me that that something like the honor code policy would have a chilling effect on the reporting of rapes on campus. Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew. 3
ALarson Posted April 11, 2016 Posted April 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: Case #2 - You were raped last night? Yes Can you tell me the circumstances leading up to the rape? Yes, I was out partying, drinking beer and smoking pot, and this guy I did not know raped me. CRUELTY and evil actions on behalf of the BYU police. Asking that question is not quite being "interrogated" which is the word in the quote that Yirgacheffe was most likely reacting to. I think we can all agree that there is nothing wrong with asking the question above in an effort to gather facts and evidence, etc., and is a natural question to ask of a victim. And regardless of the answer, they are not responsible for being violated or raped.
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