BYU Rape Awareness Conference

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, Storm Rider said:

The following is the sum total of the article linked above:

• "I talked to them for two hours. … They asked me to tell them everything," Brooke said.

  The two men said they'd pray about her case, she said.

  The next day, she learned she'd been kicked out of school and couldn't reapply for two years.

  "I thought, I'm reporting someone who raped someone," Brooke said. "Why would they punish me?"

  ealberty@sltrib.com, jmiller@sltrib.com, rpiper@sltrib.com

Am I missing something?  This is not very much reporting.  

Oops...didn't realize that link only contained page 4.  Hopefully this should fix it.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?fullpage=1

[bsjkki]

I think the poster on that comment thread named AngryDad shares very pertinent information about how his non-honor code violating daughter was treated and the harm that was done.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

The following is the sum total of the article linked above:

• "I talked to them for two hours. … They asked me to tell them everything," Brooke said.

  The two men said they'd pray about her case, she said.

  The next day, she learned she'd been kicked out of school and couldn't reapply for two years.

  "I thought, I'm reporting someone who raped someone," Brooke said. "Why would they punish me?"

  ealberty@sltrib.com, jmiller@sltrib.com, rpiper@sltrib.com

Am I missing something?  This is not very much reporting.  

Yes. The part where she decided to try acid. 

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Yes. The part where she decided to try acid. 

What a terrible choice she made, but even worse on so many levels was the rapist.  As she was trying to escape he raped her again.  At least that's what I remember from the report.  If this went on, how did this evildoer ever get the ecclesiastical endorsement to attend BYU?   

Edited April 14, 2016 by Tacenda

[Stargazer]

On 4/10/2016 at 10:35 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

I could see this being discussed in the discussion forum if someone wants to post it there. There is a rape epidemic going on over all campuses in America not just BYU and the problem is they try to solve it internally instead of going with outside police.

Actually, there is no rape epidemic going on in American campuses.

There is, on the other hand, a sleight of hand expansive redefinition of what rape is. 

 

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Oops...didn't realize that link only contained page 4.  Hopefully this should fix it.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?fullpage=1

Okay, now that makes more sense.  Exactly how many Mormon young people at BYU are drinking and doing drugs?  This is disconcerting to hear about so many girls violating the Honor Code; the fact that there are Mormon young men raping girls is beyond repugnant.  

Does anyone have any percentages of students participating in this type of behavior?  How in the heck did any of them get into BYU in the first place?

[MiserereNobis]

This thread makes me so sad.  I haven't posted in a while but I have been reading.  And lest you think I'm a "bleeding heart" liberal, please peruse my previous posts.

I can't believe that some vocal posters on this thread want mercy to take a back seat to justice.  Mormon atonement theology has always been a bit murky to me (I've always found it oddly transactional), but I think there is an obvious connection here.  How far does God's mercy extend?  How much justice does God require?  How are we supposed to act when confronted with the conflict of justice versus mercy?  How would God treat us?

It appears that some posters here fall squarely on the side of justice over all else.  I would implore them to study Christ's interactions during His earthly ministry.  His greatest accusers were those who claimed justice over mercy, from the woman taken in adultery to His disciplines picking grain on the Sabbath.  His greatest rebukes were for those who claimed justice trumps mercy (except, of course, when He rebuked those who would make money off of religion).

Mocking victims by attaching a satirical "TM" to the word victim is reprehensible.  The Christ I know would cringe at such flippancy directed towards someone who has suffered one of the greatest injustices of their human and divine dignity.  We Catholics have had to deal with such terrible terrible actions within our own clergy -- please, Mormons, learn from our mistakes.  Don't let the ideas of justice, honor code (canon law), institutional protections, the appearance of purity, the possibility of false accusations... please don't let these things cloud your judgement and end up straining that gnat and swallowing a camel.  Or obsessing over the mote when the beam is so obvious.  Please, don't put your members through the hell that some of our members have had to endure.

The greatest commandments are love, not punishment.  The greatest commandments bring us closer to God; they don't drive us away from Him.  Please pity the weak, the fallen, the downtrodden, the victims, the outcasts, the honor code violaters, and please don't let some notion of justice keep you away from the greater law; the law of pure justice was, because of Christ on the Cross (the center of Christianity!), fully transcended by mercy and love.

Yours in Christ,

MiserereNobis (have mercy on us)

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by MiserereNobis

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

This thread makes me so sad.  I haven't posted in a while but I have been reading.  And lest you think I'm a "bleeding heart" liberal, please peruse my previous posts.

I can't believe that some vocal posters on this thread want mercy to take a back seat to justice.  Mormon atonement theology has always been a bit murky to me (I've always found it oddly transactional), but I think there is an obvious connection here.  How far does God's mercy extend?  How much justice does God require?  How are we supposed to act when confronted with the conflict of justice versus mercy?  How would God treat us?

It appears that some posters here fall squarely on the side of justice over all else.  I would implore them to study Christ's interactions during His earthly ministry.  His greatest accusers were those who claimed justice over mercy, from the woman taken in adultery to His disciplines picking grain on the Sabbath.  His greatest rebukes were for those who claimed justice trumps mercy (except, of course, when He rebuked those who would make money off of religion).

Mocking victims by attaching a satirical "TM" to the word victim is reprehensible.  The Christ I know would cringe at such flippancy directed towards someone who has suffered one of the greatest injustices of their human and divine dignity.  We Catholics have had to deal with such terrible terrible actions within our own clergy -- please, Mormons, learn from our mistakes.  Don't let the ideas of justice, honor code (canon law), institutional protections, the appearance of purity, the possibility of false accusations... please don't let these things cloud your judgement and end up straining that gnat and swallowing a camel.  Or obsessing over the mote when the beam is so obvious.  Please, don't put your members through the hell that some of our members have had to endure.

The greatest commandments are love, not punishment.  The greatest commandments bring us closer to God; they don't drive us away from Him.  Please pity the weak, the fallen, the downtrodden, the victims, the outcasts, the honor code violaters, and please don't let some notion of justice keep you away from the greater law; the law of pure justice was, because of Christ on the Cross (the center of Christianity!), fully transcended by mercy and love.

Yours in Christ,

MiserereNobis (have mercy on us)

 

I appreciate your point of view and your tender heart, MiserereNobis.

The TM for "Victim" is for those who use victimhood as a way to make money and gain recognition.  Including creating victims where there are none, in a form of cynicism that is very ugly, even using true victims as a way to make profit.  

Christ did not prefer mercy over justice.  Christ most certainly was the God the Old Testament, and it was He who struck down Uzzah for steadying the Ark, despite Uzzah's intent being benign.  The parable of the unforgiving servant is not a parable in defense of allowing mercy to steal from justice, but a rebuke for failing to forgive others as we are forgiven.  The story of the woman taken in adultery was not in defense of mercy over justice, but a rebuke for hypocrisy.    

It is a fact that Mercy cannot rob Justice.  It requires a Christ to satisfy Justice -- and so how are we imperfect mortals to reward wrongdoing by robbing justice?  Should we refuse to prosecute perpetrators of a crime because they are injured by their crime?  Cherry-picking whom to punish for wrongdoing, and who to let off scot-free?  To do so is to endanger the equal application of law.

That is what is being discussed here.  

Besides, it is only through the precious blood of Jesus Christ that Mercy can satisfy Justice.

[Gray]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I appreciate your point of view and your tender heart, MiserereNobis.

The TM for "Victim" is for those who use victimhood as a way to make money and gain recognition.  Including creating victims where there are none, in a form of cynicism that is very ugly, even using true victims as a way to make profit.  

Christ did not prefer mercy over justice.  Christ most certainly was the God the Old Testament, and it was He who struck down Uzzah for steadying the Ark, despite Uzzah's intent being benign.  The parable of the unforgiving servant is not a parable in defense of allowing mercy to steal from justice, but a rebuke for failing to forgive others as we are forgiven.  The story of the woman taken in adultery was not in defense of mercy over justice, but a rebuke for hypocrisy.    

It is a fact that Mercy cannot rob Justice.  It requires a Christ to satisfy Justice -- and so how are we imperfect mortals to reward wrongdoing by robbing justice?  Should we refuse to prosecute perpetrators of a crime because they are injured by their crime?  Cherry-picking whom to punish for wrongdoing, and who to let off scot-free?  To do so is to endanger the equal application of law.

That is what is being discussed here.  

Besides, it is only through the precious blood of Jesus Christ that Mercy can satisfy Justice.

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"

Jesus, as described in the gospels, does not have the same approach as Yahweh as described in the OT. 

[ALarson]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The TM for "Victim" is for those who use victimhood as a way to make money and gain recognition.  Including creating victims where there are none, in a form of cynicism that is very ugly, even using true victims as a way to make profit.  

Then why is the TM being used regarding these actual victims of rape?  How are they attempting to "make profit" from this?

(If someone is, I missed it and would really like to have a source that this is occurring here, thanks.)

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Then why is the TM being used regarding these actual victims of rape?  How are they attempting to "make profit" from this?

(If someone is, I missed it and would really like to have a source that this is occurring here, thanks.)

It's a generic markup.  There does seem to be a semi-professional victimhood culture going on in this country.  Is it applicable in this case?  I don't know.  I don't even think it's appropriate in the generic sense.  

The point is, there are people who cry Victim! when attempting to get out of culpability for their mistakes.  For example, a homeless young man whom we took in for a few days stole $300 from one of my sons, a theft which was noticed almost immediately, and the son in question tackled him to the floor and proceeded to search him.  The kid made protestations about how he had been treated badly by his family and this suspicion and physical treatment was bringing back memories of his mistreatment, and how my son was hurting him psychologically, yada yada.  Until the $300 was found on him, whereupon he finally shut up and ran out of the house -- stealing my son's jacket in the process!  

It's called "playing the victim card".

The young woman was truly the victim of a crime.  That's not in question.  She's playing the victim card in asking that her violation of an agreement that she had made be overlooked because of what happened as a result of her violation of the agreement.  This actually comes across as a bit ironic.  My acquaintance who turned himself into a paraplegic as a result of an accident that occurred while he was driving while intoxicated was nevertheless charged and convicted with DUI. Should the court have dismissed the charges because he hurt himself in the process of violating the law?  

I'm glad I don't have to decide things like this, because I truly feel badly because of what happened to her, and finding her in violation of the HC with whatever comes as a result seems a bit like piling on.  But people get in trouble all the time for doing things they're not supposed to do.  Does this mean that every person who violates agreements or the law should be treated with kid gloves because they are sorry they are caught?  Or even sorry that they did it?  We could empty the prisons on that theory.

[Stargazer]

30 minutes ago, Gray said:

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"

Jesus, as described in the gospels, does not have the same approach as Yahweh as described in the OT. 

Jesus was not in a position of earthly authority, nor in a position of ecclesiastical authority.  What would he have done if he were truly the King?  Would he have thrown out all the commandments in favor of forgiving every violation of them?

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Jesus was not in a position of earthly authority, nor in a position of ecclesiastical authority.  What would he have done if he were truly the King?  Would he have thrown out all the commandments in favor of forgiving every violation of them?

I don't have access to what Jesus might have done. All I can do is compare the Jesus of the gospels to the Yahweh of the OT. Jesus seemed to be a religious reformer, not throwing out the law of Moses, but arguing for a more lenient approach to it. 

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

It's a generic markup.  There does seem to be a semi-professional victimhood culture going on in this country.  Is it applicable in this case?  I don't know.  I don't even think it's appropriate in the generic sense.  

The point is, there are people who cry Victim! when attempting to get out of culpability for their mistakes.

I get that.  But, have you seen anyone doing this who is a part of this discussion (BYU cases)?  

[Tacenda]

Are you kidding me?! 

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3773615-155/prosecutor-says-rape-case-is-threatened

[mtomm]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Are you kidding me?! 

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3773615-155/prosecutor-says-rape-case-is-threatened

I'm sure this Victim[TM] just wants some notoriety and fame and to make money and stuff.  This is all just made up and this victimhood culture talk is just to make BYU look bad. It probably wasn't even rape but the new made up definition of rape.  I bet that prosecutor is anti-Mormon.

/sarcasm

Edited April 15, 2016 by mtomm

[BlueDreams]

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This thread makes me so sad.  I haven't posted in a while but I have been reading.  And lest you think I'm a "bleeding heart" liberal, please peruse my previous posts.

I can't believe that some vocal posters on this thread want mercy to take a back seat to justice.  Mormon atonement theology has always been a bit murky to me (I've always found it oddly transactional), but I think there is an obvious connection here.  How far does God's mercy extend?  How much justice does God require?  How are we supposed to act when confronted with the conflict of justice versus mercy?  How would God treat us?

It appears that some posters here fall squarely on the side of justice over all else.  I would implore them to study Christ's interactions during His earthly ministry.  His greatest accusers were those who claimed justice over mercy, from the woman taken in adultery to His disciplines picking grain on the Sabbath.  His greatest rebukes were for those who claimed justice trumps mercy (except, of course, when He rebuked those who would make money off of religion).

Mocking victims by attaching a satirical "TM" to the word victim is reprehensible.  The Christ I know would cringe at such flippancy directed towards someone who has suffered one of the greatest injustices of their human and divine dignity.  We Catholics have had to deal with such terrible terrible actions within our own clergy -- please, Mormons, learn from our mistakes.  Don't let the ideas of justice, honor code (canon law), institutional protections, the appearance of purity, the possibility of false accusations... please don't let these things cloud your judgement and end up straining that gnat and swallowing a camel.  Or obsessing over the mote when the beam is so obvious.  Please, don't put your members through the hell that some of our members have had to endure.

The greatest commandments are love, not punishment.  The greatest commandments bring us closer to God; they don't drive us away from Him.  Please pity the weak, the fallen, the downtrodden, the victims, the outcasts, the honor code violaters, and please don't let some notion of justice keep you away from the greater law; the law of pure justice was, because of Christ on the Cross (the center of Christianity!), fully transcended by mercy and love.

Yours in Christ,

MiserereNobis (have mercy on us)

 

I would agree. I've been silent about this as well. I was a BYU student accumulatively for 7 years from 06-15 and still live near it. I also know dr. Lauren Barnes...she was one of my supervisors while in my grad program.

A few days after this came out, I heard of a person who did end up suspended after reporting her rape on campus and I heard it from a fairly credible source. This and other cases deeply bothered me about the things that happen around campus that perpetuate silence on sexual assault concerns and silence in general about sex (which faking rape is part of that). There are several areas of disconnect that happen. There are also several things that BYU heads to that I'm pleased to hear about (I can't go into details about one of the main ones I have in mind due to confidentiality). There are other decisions that drive me batty. Like taking the teeth out of the women's services department recently. It's still there but the services rendered have become more superficial, imho, removing it crises and brief therapy options for people who come in. 

That said, I also wouldn't go to an extreme of condemning a school or not wanting my children to attend one day. BYU is a great school and my experiences were overwhelmingly positive. And rape culture and sexual assault/harassment problems are not a BYU-specific problem. I've had more sexual harassment happen off of BYU than I can remember on (in fact I honestly don't remember an experience beyond a man becoming uncomfortably sexual too quick that I met on campus who was a student). Could BYU do better? Yes, definitely. But it also has cultural factors that reduce the likelihood for rape. Such as really low alcohol use. And some of that is also tied to the honor code. 

I leAn towards general amnesty of rape victims and mandatory therapy if there are obvious risky behaviors involved. It's not a perfect solution but as you mentioned I would rather err on the side of mercy than justice. 

One last thing. The idea of faking rape is not BYU or honor code specific but tied More so with the overarching social structure that emphasizes sexual purity above almost all else. My step-mom is a gyno-nurse and reports seeing the same thing at time from young girls fearful of their parents, peers, etc finding out they had consensual sex. My aunt just had a baby as well and the issues of cultural and generational acceptance of a child out of wedlock are obvious in many of the conversations I've had with family and her decision to hide the pregnancy from most of her family. She still hasn't told 3 families because of their expected responses. Ironically they are figure heads for some of the extreme voices that may come up in such situations here and elsewhere. One family is in the blue because the mother left the church and is hypercritical of it. Having her über Mormon sister make a 1 time mistake that made her a single mom would be grounds to also critique the church. Another is very very conservative (even for my family) and would be sticklers to following the letter to church decisions. The last is a little stream-of-conscious with her thoughts and can be extremely offensive and sharp without realizing she's done so, lecturing all the way (even though she is farrrr from perfect). I feel that that's at times what happens in discourses in general around sexuality, sex, and all that's tied to it in a church setting. More polarizing voices speak and can inadvertently shut down the voices of those who are experiencing the real people effected by these problems. That is not just more letter oriented LDS but even the more liberal voices, critical ones of the church, or outside voices in general. This isn't all towards one particular person in this thread, but a general concern I find both hear and elsewhere where the church and it (ex/liberal/conservative/whatever) members are involved. In our sense of moral expertise we often lose the necessary voices in these experiences - the ones of victims, the ones who've made sexual mistakes, and even the voices of those guilty of assault. If we are to truly change what happens anywhere, all of these must be understood I order to elicit lasting social change.

 

With luv, 

BD

Edited April 15, 2016 by BlueDreams