BYU Rape Awareness Conference

[USU78]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I guess one thing that is important and might settle this is...what kind of discipline is there if one breaks the code, such as drinking or being found in a guy's dorm room?  I kind of read through the HC and think it means they are possible kicked out of school.  So right there you can see that a girl who's been raped and did make a wrong choice, such as the examples mentioned, she might think twice before reporting it.  And the rapist may well know this, which may well have given him the feeling that he won't get caught.  A lot of 'mays' or 'mights' but something to think about.

I guess we differ in our expectations of young women:  I want them heroic, willing to do what it takes to put the bad guy away, regardless of consequences.  Isn't that what is being instilled in the Trek "women's pull?"  Because, when it comes right down to it, you might just find yourself alone with nobody to help.  Do you give up?  Do you keep trying?

In my view, valuing enrollment over right/wrong is an evil thing.  Or at least a cowardly thing.

[Buckeye]

23 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Yeah, not so much.  I call the price of one person, my friend's daughter was the example I gave, that went home because she had roommates that blatantly ignored the honor code.  Rather than put up with it, she went back home to Florida.  So the harm done to her is nothing?  No price to community; no price to her as an individual.  However, some individual lives dangerously and she is raped and kill the rapist and forgive the girl!  Why?  She suffered a rape and there fore should be forgiven of everything else she was doing.  

Oops, I got caught drinking and taking drugs - what do I do?  Allege rape and all is forgiven.  Never happen you say, right - that victim world view you have needs to raise its head and actually see the reality.  What type of society are we trying to create?  Are people responsible for their actions or not?  Women are not responsible.....why?  Because they had a horrible experience.  How often do we use this standard in society?  I think it does happen, but for whom is it applied and when is it ignored?  How many people of color get to use the same standard?  How many people in poverty get to use it as an excuse?  How many fat people get to use it?  This is hypocrisy in action and it is paraded about as if it is noble. 

Please try focusing on what I actually wrote. Your friend's daughter's example is irrelevant. She did not go home because of amnesty from a rape victim. She went home because of hypocrisy of roommates. I'm not calling for any leniency for such roommates. Perhaps your friend's daughter could have considered finding other (HC abiding) roommates before giving up on BYU, but regardless, her situation has nothing to bear on my suggestion. I do hope that she's found a better school.

Second, I never said anything about "forgiving" the victim for his or her errors. The HC office is not about forgiving. It's about enforcing policy - specifically the HC. My suggestion is to give amnesty from the policy for victims of sexual abuse - and that amnesty pertains only to the events surrounding the abuse. Forgiveness has nothing to do with this. 

I see no point in responding to your rant about race, gender, and body size.

[Buckeye]

6 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I guess we differ in our expectations of young women:  I want them heroic, willing to do what it takes to put the bad guy away, regardless of consequences.  Isn't that what is being instilled in the Trek "women's pull?"  Because, when it comes right down to it, you might just find yourself alone with nobody to help.  Do you give up?  Do you keep trying?

In my view, valuing enrollment over right/wrong is an evil thing.  Or at least a cowardly thing.

The question for you is: Do you judge?

The answer is: Absolutely not!  

Some women in rape situations fight back. Others do not. Whatever the decision, we never ever judge. And we never label women as cowards. Period. So the answer to their question is highly complicated. The answer to yours couldn't be simpler. Do Not Judge.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Buckeye

[USU78]

1 minute ago, Buckeye said:

The easy answer for you is this: Do you judge? Absolutely not!  Some women in these situations fight back. Others do not. Whatever the decision, we never ever judge. And we never label women as cowards. Period.

Sacred cow?

[Buckeye]

3 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Sacred cow?

Could you be more offensive if you tried?

[mtomm]

12 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

The question for you is: Do you judge?

The answer is: Absolutely not!  

Some women in rape situations fight back. Others do not. Whatever the decision, we never ever judge. And we never label women as cowards. Period. So the answer to their question is highly complicated. The answer to yours couldn't be simpler. Do Not Judge.

And the same for any man that is molested or raped. Do Not Judge. And even if you have been a victim you cannot judge someone for not behaving/reporting/doing what you did in your situation. 

[Danzo]

33 minutes ago, toon said:

Oh my goodness!  Victim blaming at its best.

Convicting rapists sends a message to would be rapists.

Frankly, I'm really disgusted by many of the posts on this board.  It's one thing to try and justify BYU's approach (assuming that's truly the approach); it's quite another to post the above.

I don't follow.  

You thought my post was victim blaming?

At its best?

 

I am not quite sure you know what blaming the victim means.

[USU78]

3 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Could you be more offensive if you tried?

I'm quite serious here.  I'm all for physically intervening and was more than once the designated escort for home-evening-group-sisters and others to ensure safe returns, and self-appointed, back in my performing days, myself to ensure everybody got back to their cars safely after late-night rehearsals.  I'm also for the death penalty for aggravated rape and all child rape.  In fairness, I do not value enrollment at yBu in the slightest and that may color my views on this subject.

BUT  ...  I do not believe it is good policy to mollycoddle or excuse the victim, especially the young victim, but rather strongly hold that the victim must be in strongest possible terms encouraged to speak out regardless of fear of retaliation.  It is then the duty of the rest of us to provide material and all other available support to ensure her safety and well-being.

There are plenty of things worth being scared of, and bowing out of a private school ain't one of them.  Each of us, man or woman, old or young, should have inculcated a value to be the last warrior on the bridge regardless of what might come across it.  If society is worth preserving, it is worth spending our efforts, our valiance, our blood if necessary to protect those within society from the predator.

If that's offensive to you, then so be it.

[Tacenda]

38 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I'm quite serious here.  I'm all for physically intervening and was more than once the designated escort for home-evening-group-sisters and others to ensure safe returns, and self-appointed, back in my performing days, myself to ensure everybody got back to their cars safely after late-night rehearsals.  I'm also for the death penalty for aggravated rape and all child rape.  In fairness, I do not value enrollment at yBu in the slightest and that may color my views on this subject.

BUT  ...  I do not believe it is good policy to mollycoddle or excuse the victim, especially the young victim, but rather strongly hold that the victim must be in strongest possible terms encouraged to speak out regardless of fear of retaliation.  It is then the duty of the rest of us to provide material and all other available support to ensure her safety and well-being.

There are plenty of things worth being scared of, and bowing out of a private school ain't one of them.  Each of us, man or woman, old or young, should have inculcated a value to be the last warrior on the bridge regardless of what might come across it.  If society is worth preserving, it is worth spending our efforts, our valiance, our blood if necessary to protect those within society from the predator.

If that's offensive to you, then so be it.

Consider the age also, very naive, and worried about having disobeyed and the consequences of it.  How disappointed her parents might be, her family and friends.  I think if there was rape, this on top of that is just more injurious.  

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, toon said:

How about?

You were raped last night?  Yes.

Ok, we're going to let the legal authorities investigate, and we'll cooperate fully.  Is there anything we can do to help?

You are assuming this does not happen.  Do you have any evidence of what actually happens?  Please provide it.  If not, then withdraw what amounts to a slur on the BYU police department.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

This report details rape among college aged females. I trust the Department of Justice is reporting reliable statistics about the non-reporting percentages of rape.  Page nine of the link contains the non-reporting statistics and breaks down the reasons why they go unreported. I can't help it if you don't believe the academics and statisticians are credible.  

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

I agree false rape allegations are incredibly damaging to both the accused and all future rape victims.  One of the major reason girls don't report is because they don't think they will be believed.  This link is from 2003 but the lead investigator for the BYU police department reported 90% of rapes go unreported.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiii-eLwYfMAhUO9GMKHbRfDCMQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deseretnews.com%2Farticle%2F515039389%2F90-of-Provo-rapes-not-reported-to-police.html%3Fpg%3Dall&usg=AFQjCNFQjX0hUVSxc3rjq5E6GZW5OSauMg&sig2=FlNJgjJppxM9iHOyZWcDcg&bvm=bv.119028448,bs.1,d.amc

The links were telling bsjkki.  Here is a quote from the Deseret News article. Of course this was in 2003, I hope that mentality is gone, but have a feeling it's probably not.  Here's the quote....  "She said something that blew me away. She said, 'I should have died before I let him do that to me,' " Lemmon said. "I was troubled that she had to believe that."  

 

[ALarson]

3 hours ago, Danzo said:

Reporting the rape doesn't prevent the rape.

But it may prevent someone else from getting raped by the same rapist.

[Russell C McGregor]

7 hours ago, Gray said:

What is the honor code doing to prevent rape?

This has to get the prize for the question with the most obvious answer ever.

Is it possible for a BYU student to rape someone without violating the Honor Code?

Think about it. For as long as it takes.

7 hours ago, Gray said:

We have laws on the books to punish rapists already. But that doesn't help if rape goes unreported. 

And according to the copious links that have been posted here, reporting it doesn't always do the trick either.

 

[toon]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

You are assuming this does not happen.  Do you have any evidence of what actually happens?  Please provide it.  If not, then withdraw what amounts to a slur on the BYU police department.  

Seriously?

I'm proposing a potential and simply, albeit hypothetical, response to rape allegations. Just like you did.  My proposal is that it be treated merely as a criminal matter and not, independent or not, an honor code violation.  Kind of like it happens in nearly any other civilized jurisdiction.  That there not be follow up questions (like you suggested) inquiring about the victim's conduct with the implication (like you suggested) that the response might result in some form of disciplinary action.

But you're asking me to prove or withdraw what is the central basis of this thread, and indeed something backed up by BYU's official statement itself, that when it has knowledge of a rape allegation, it will also investigate, and presumably deal with through disciplinary measures, independently or not, whether the victim violated the honor code.

I really try to be accommodating and understanding when posting here, but I don't think I've ever been as outraged at the blind apologetic defense of whatever the . . . BYU does in this case.

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by toon

[toon]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

I'm quite serious here.  I'm all for physically intervening and was more than once the designated escort for home-evening-group-sisters and others to ensure safe returns, and self-appointed, back in my performing days, myself to ensure everybody got back to their cars safely after late-night rehearsals.  I'm also for the death penalty for aggravated rape and all child rape.  In fairness, I do not value enrollment at yBu in the slightest and that may color my views on this subject.

BUT  ...  I do not believe it is good policy to mollycoddle or excuse the victim, especially the young victim, but rather strongly hold that the victim must be in strongest possible terms encouraged to speak out regardless of fear of retaliation.  It is then the duty of the rest of us to provide material and all other available support to ensure her safety and well-being.

There are plenty of things worth being scared of, and bowing out of a private school ain't one of them.  Each of us, man or woman, old or young, should have inculcated a value to be the last warrior on the bridge regardless of what might come across it.  If society is worth preserving, it is worth spending our efforts, our valiance, our blood if necessary to protect those within society from the predator.

If that's offensive to you, then so be it.

I'd sure hate to "mollycoddle:" a victim.

Oh my goodness. 

[strappinglad]

I need someone familiar with data collection to explain to me how the statement that " 90% of rapes go unreported " could possibly be verified. Is a survey done that contacts 1200 women between the ages of 16 an 60 and asks if they have been raped and did they report it and why or why not?

Also , it is said that  in the vast majority of cases the rapist is known to the victim. Are the hundreds of rapes taking place at BYU every year happening between stone cold sober girls and alcohol fueled off campus boys who prowl the dorms or are they the result of date rape that happens after both parties have partied ? Ya, I know, it doesn't matter. But it does if society  wants to figure out a way to reduce/stop the problem. Different approaches would be needed.

[mtomm]

1 minute ago, strappinglad said:

I need someone familiar with data collection to explain to me how the statement that " 90% of rapes go unreported " could possibly be verified. Is a survey done that contacts 1200 women between the ages of 16 an 60 and asks if they have been raped and did they report it and why or why not?

Also , it is said that  in the vast majority of cases the rapist is known to the victim. Are the hundreds of rapes taking place at BYU every year happening between stone cold sober girls and alcohol fueled off campus boys who prowl the dorms or are they the result of date rape that happens after both parties have partied ? Ya, I know, it doesn't matter. But it does if society  wants to figure out a way to reduce/stop the problem. Different approaches would be needed.

Date rape or aquaintence rape doesn't have to involve only people who are under influence.  

[strappinglad]

3 minutes ago, mtomm said:

Date rape or aquaintence rape doesn't have to involve only people who are under influence.  

Absolutely true, however, the presence of alcohol and or drugs removes inhibitions and allows for actions that would not normally take place.

[Storm Rider]

37 minutes ago, toon said:

Seriously?

I'm proposing a potential and simply, albeit hypothetical, response to rape allegations. Just like you did.  My proposal is that it be treated merely as a criminal matter and not, independent or not, an honor code violation.  Kind of like it happens in nearly any other civilized jurisdiction.  That there not be follow up questions (like you suggested) inquiring about the victim's conduct with the implication (like you suggested) that the response might result in some form of disciplinary action.

But you're asking me to prove or withdraw what is the central basis of this thread, and indeed something backed up by BYU's official statement itself, that when it has knowledge of a rape allegation, it will also investigate, and presumably deal with through disciplinary measures, independently or not, whether the victim violated the honor code.

I really try to be accommodating and understanding when posting here, but I don't think I've ever been as outraged at the blind apologetic defense of whatever the . . . BYU does in this case.

 

Gads, this is like playing with a tar baby.  

Let's start from the beginning - read it slowly so that nothing is lost - NO ONE HAS ALLEGED THAT A RAPE VICTIM IS TREATED IMPROPERLY AT BYU.  THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANYONE THAT HAS BROUGHT THAT ISSUE UP EXCEPT YOU.  IT DOES NOT BELONG IN THE CONVERSATION BECAUSE IT IS NOT AN ISSUE.  THE ONLY ISSUE IS IF A RAPE VICTIM HAS ALSO VIOLATED THE HONOR CODE SHOULD SHE BE LIABLE FOR THAT VIOLATION AS A SEPARATE MATTER.  HER VIOLATION OF THE HONOR CODE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RAPE OR PUNISHING THE RAPIST.

It is a simple issue.  Some feel strongly that a victim, because of the egregious nature of a rape, should be absolved of any violation of the honor IF there were associated circumstances surrounding the rape where the victim had violated the Honor Code.   Others feel just as strongly that there are two separate issues - the rape and the violation of the Honor Code.  If the victim of the rape had violated the Honor Code immediately prior to her rape then that violation should be handled separate from the rape.

Those who feel strongly that the victim be provided amnesty their issue to make sure there are no impediments to reporting sexual abuse for students at BYU.  Those who feel differently feel that all students should be treated equally without concern for how a violation was discovered.

Yes, I am am just as fed up with the emotion that is associated with a discussion on rape.  It is as if logical humans become blind automatons and can only spit out trite phrases that have nothing to do with the issue.  The issue is not the rape and never was - the issue is violating the Honor Code and the equal treatment of all students.  

 

[mtomm]

16 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I need someone familiar with data collection to explain to me how the statement that " 90% of rapes go unreported " could possibly be verified. Is a survey done that contacts 1200 women between the ages of 16 an 60 and asks if they have been raped and did they report it and why or why not?

Also , it is said that  in the vast majority of cases the rapist is known to the victim. Are the hundreds of rapes taking place at BYU every year happening between stone cold sober girls and alcohol fueled off campus boys who prowl the dorms or are they the result of date rape that happens after both parties have partied ? Ya, I know, it doesn't matter. But it does if society  wants to figure out a way to reduce/stop the problem. Different approaches would be needed.

You may not like this site for news but the article contains many links to the data and methods explanation you seek.   links It also contains graphic content about what constitutes rape.  But the answers you want aren't easy. 

"After comparing several official methods for counting rape and sexual assault, the panel discovered major inconsistencies in national data."

Also:

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Absolutely true, however, the presence of alcohol and or drugs removes inhibitions and allows for actions that would not normally take place.

I've always heard rapists usually aren't in the mood for love per say.  They are in the mood for power.  It's basically a power issue, not a "in the heat of the moment" thing.  Usually, not always, but wanted to inject the age old phenonomen.  https://www.mnsu.edu/varp/assault/myths.html ETA:  Maybe I'm wrong, I've read more material and it may not be about the power always.  But I'll share the below still.

Myth: The primary motive for rape is impulsive sexual desire.

Fact: Studies show that the major motive for rape is power, not sex. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict pain, violence and humiliation. Most rapists appear to have normal personalities with an abnormal tendency to be aggressive and violent. Between 2/3 and 3/4 of sexual assaults are planned in advance.

 

Myth: Women often falsely report rape to gain attention or get somebody in trouble.

Fact: In 2008, "unfounded" reports of rape to the Uniform Crime Report Program (UCR) were at 5.8% (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Report, 2008). The category of "unfounded" consists of both baseless cases—in which the elements of the crime were never met—and false reports. Law enforcement is trained to discover false reports in their investigation. It is more likely that an actual assault goes unreported. Sexual assault is one of the most underreported crimes, with 60% still being left unreported (U.S. Department of Justice National Crime Victimization Study, 2005).  Furthermore, less than 5% of completed and attempted rapes of college students are brought to the attention of campus authorities and/or law enforcement (Karjane, H. M., Fisher, B. S., & Cullen, F. T., 2005. Sexual assault on Campus: What colleges and universities are doing about it) which means that over 95% of completed or attempted rapes of college students go unreported. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Tacenda

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

But it may prevent someone else from getting raped by the same rapist.

True.

Unfortunately the criminal justice system isn't always successful in deterring crime. That is why it is necessary to focus on prevention as well as punishment.

[Sleeper Cell]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

I guess it would be good to have some data that those kinds of policies reduce rape likelihood. Maybe they do.

Out of curiosity, do you believe that there is anything within reason that a woman can do (or refrain from doing) that would reduce the probability of being raped?  

[Russell C McGregor]

24 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Out of curiosity, do you believe that there is anything within reason that a woman can do (or refrain from doing) that would reduce the probability of being raped?  

Here's the thing: in the context of resident BYU students, it seems that following the Honor Code and university policies really should keep them out of most dangerous situations most of the time.

But are we really allowed to say that?

 

[Russell C McGregor]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I've always heard rapists usually aren't in the mood for love per say.  They are in the mood for power.  It's basically a power issue, not a "in the heat of the moment" thing.  Usually, not always, but wanted to inject the age old phenonomen.  https://www.mnsu.edu/varp/assault/myths.html ETA:  Maybe I'm wrong, I've read more material and it may not be about the power always.  But I'll share the below still.

Myth: The primary motive for rape is impulsive sexual desire.

Fact: Studies show that the major motive for rape is power, not sex. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict pain, violence and humiliation. Most rapists appear to have normal personalities with an abnormal tendency to be aggressive and violent. Between 2/3 and 3/4 of sexual assaults are planned in advance.

 

Myth: Women often falsely report rape to gain attention or get somebody in trouble.

Fact: In 2008, "unfounded" reports of rape to the Uniform Crime Report Program (UCR) were at 5.8% (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Report, 2008). The category of "unfounded" consists of both baseless cases—in which the elements of the crime were never met—and false reports. Law enforcement is trained to discover false reports in their investigation. It is more likely that an actual assault goes unreported. Sexual assault is one of the most underreported crimes, with 60% still being left unreported (U.S. Department of Justice National Crime Victimization Study, 2005).  Furthermore, less than 5% of completed and attempted rapes of college students are brought to the attention of campus authorities and/or law enforcement (Karjane, H. M., Fisher, B. S., & Cullen, F. T., 2005. Sexual assault on Campus: What colleges and universities are doing about it) which means that over 95% of completed or attempted rapes of college students go unreported. 

Myth: Every such report is always true and should never be questioned.

That was the thinking that fuelled the "Satanic Ritual Abuse" moral panic of the 1980's and 90's. It reverses the burden of proof and introduces a presumption of guilt.