BYU Rape Awareness Conference

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Which is very concerning.  I guess since Utah is slow to prosecute that may contribute.  There is a fund that a group has donated to get all rape kits tested in 20 states. Law enforcement need to get their act together and start testing the over 1,800 rape kits collected.  Who knows how many rapes could have been prevented if this had been done sooner.  To me, this suggests that Law Enforcement doesn't rank these women very high.

 http://kutv.com/news/local/lawmakers-call-for-more-testing-of-rape-kits

I'm not so sure I'd be willing to throw law enforcement under the bus and make sweeping judgments about Utahns' valuing women on the word of Jim Dabakis.

I'm the first to admit that cops and labs sometimes drop the ball, but there might be a myriad of reasons therefor.  If the choice is whether the labs and lab rats (or the prosecutors and/or cops) are inefficient or overworked or malicious, the ball ought to land on non-malicious, wouldn't you agree?

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I'm not so sure I'd be willing to throw law enforcement under the bus and make sweeping judgments about Utahns' valuing women on the word of Jim Dabakis.

I'm the first to admit that cops and labs sometimes drop the ball, but there might be a myriad of reasons therefor.  If the choice is whether the labs and lab rats (or the prosecutors and/or cops) are inefficient or overworked or malicious, the ball ought to land on non-malicious, wouldn't you agree?

You know, when I posted the article with Jim, I actually thought that because it was him speaking that some on here wouldn't take him seriously.  My instinct was right. 

What might the myriad of reasons be?  Hmm?  I think it criminal.  

[Calm]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/23/how-the-u-s-ended-up-with-400-000-untested-rape-kits.html

"Scott Berkowitz, founder and president of the Rape, Abuse, & Incest National Network, or RAINN, says that the national rape kit crisis has several causes. First, the Combined DNA Index System, or CODIS, the FBI’s criminal forensic database, did not exist until the mid-1990s. The rape kits that date back to the late ’70s and ’80s may not have been tested at the time if the victim could not identify a suspect. And by the time police started regularly matching up forensic evidence from rape kits to the DNA of previously convicted criminals, many police departments already had a massive backlog.

More recently, however, because testing one rape kit costs between $500 and $1,500, police departments don’t test every rape kit that comes their way.

“Some only pursue the ones they have the best chance of solving,” Berkowitz said. “Others only test if the alleged rapist is a stranger.”

The rationale in those cases, he said, is that DNA should be used to identify the assailant. If the victim already knows the attacker, the issue isn’t identity but consent."

[strappinglad]

44 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

 

. “I’ve even seen people claim rape when it was a consensual act, because they’re scared they might get kicked out of school.”

Now there is a statement that people just jumped right over.

As for the stats, there is a vast difference between higher and highest. If the rate in the US is 50 per 100,000 and the rate for Utah is 55 per 100,000 then Utah's rate is ' higher' than the US. But if 10 States have a rate of over 60 per 100,000 , then Utah doesn't have the 'highest ' rate. ( I am making up the numbers here so don't call for a CFR )

[USU78]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You know, when I posted the article with Jim, I actually thought that because it was him speaking that some on here wouldn't take him seriously.  My instinct was right. 

What might the myriad of reasons be?  Hmm?  I think it criminal.  

Uhhh  ...  I'm skeptical on the issue of "myriad" in the first place.  I thought I'd made that clear since I wrote in the subjunctive.  Channel 2 news and the State Democratic Party making claims critical of law enforcement is kind of a given in my experience.  Questions come to mind, even if objectively there is a time lag while everybody waits on the evidence to be evaluated, like "How much of the delay is due to continuances requested by defense counsel?" and "How much of the delay is due to defense counsel wanting separately to examine the physical evidence?"  Criminal prosecutions are messy and long.  Calling the folks who have to put up with delays not of their making (if that is the case) criminals is a bit over the top, wouldn't you say?

[Bernard Gui]

23 hours ago, Gray said:

Speaking of straw men, I never said anything resembling that. I think the unintended consequence is that rapists may be going unpunished because BYU is too strict about its honor code. I'm sure no one wants that outcome, but it's a potential unintended consequence. 

You said, "Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew." Direct quote. Not what you were thinking, but what you said. What you said not only resembles this, it is is an exact duplicate of what you said. This is a textbook example of a straw man. It's absurd. No one is arguing for this.  A rapist will never go unpunished at BYU because of its strict honor code. What you were thinking is also absurd.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You said, "Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew." Direct quote. Not what you were thinking, but what you said. What you said not only resembles this, it is is an exact duplicate of what you said. This is a textbook example of a straw man. It's absurd. No one is arguing for this. What you were thinking is also absurd. A rapist will never go unpunished at BYU because of a strict honor code.

 

You asked before: "Who is arguing that punishing the victim is more important than justice and safety? This is a straw man."

That doesn't resemble my statement, which was "It's clear to me that that something like the honor code policy would have a chilling effect on the reporting of rapes on campus.  Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew." I didn't claim that anyone was arguing that punishing victims is more important than safety or justice. I never said that the chilling affect was the intended outcome. 

I think it's clear that the way the honor code is set up is rife for opportunities for rapists to go unpunished, as the honor code provides incentives not to report rape. 

And on a related note, the honor code also provides students with plenty of incentive not to confess sins to their bishops as well. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

 

You asked before: "Who is arguing that punishing the victim is more important than justice and safety? This is a straw man."

That doesn't resemble my statement, which was "It's clear to me that that something like the honor code policy would have a chilling effect on the reporting of rapes on campus.  Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew." I didn't claim that anyone was arguing that punishing victims is more important than safety or justice. I never said that the chilling affect was the intended outcome. 

I think it's clear that the way the honor code is set up is rife for opportunities for rapists to go unpunished, as the honor code provides incentives not to report rape. 

And on a related note, the honor code also provides students with plenty of incentive not to confess sins to their bishops as well. 

You said what you said. Twice now. "Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew."

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Uhhh  ...  I'm skeptical on the issue of "myriad" in the first place.  I thought I'd made that clear since I wrote in the subjunctive.  Channel 2 news and the State Democratic Party making claims critical of law enforcement is kind of a given in my experience.  Questions come to mind, even if objectively there is a time lag while everybody waits on the evidence to be evaluated, like "How much of the delay is due to continuances requested by defense counsel?" and "How much of the delay is due to defense counsel wanting separately to examine the physical evidence?"  Criminal prosecutions are messy and long.  Calling the folks who have to put up with delays not of their making (if that is the case) criminals is a bit over the top, wouldn't you say?

I said it's criminal.  And if Jim isn't credible enough, try the BYU professor.   http://fox13now.com/2016/04/07/byu-professor-says-majority-of-rape-kits-collected-in-seven-utah-counties-went-unprocessed/ .  To which I'm sure you were aware of.  

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I said it's criminal.

 

I am not sure that word means what you think it means, especially to an attorney.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

 

I am not sure that word means what you think it means, especially to an attorney.

'It' is not a person.  You're right, I'm not speaking attorney speak.

[bsjkki]

25 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

  1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

 

. “I’ve even seen people claim rape when it was a consensual act, because they’re scared they might get kicked out of school.”

 

25 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Now there is a statement that people just jumped right over.

As for the stats, there is a vast difference between higher and highest. If the rate in the US is 50 per 100,000 and the rate for Utah is 55 per 100,000 then Utah's rate is ' higher' than the US. But if 10 States have a rate of over 60 per 100,000 , then Utah doesn't have the 'highest ' rate. ( I am making up the numbers here so don't call for a CFR )

 

17 minutes ago, Gray said:

 

You asked before: "Who is arguing that punishing the victim is more important than justice and safety? This is a straw man."

That doesn't resemble my statement, which was "It's clear to me that that something like the honor code policy would have a chilling effect on the reporting of rapes on campus.  Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew." I didn't claim that anyone was arguing that punishing victims is more important than safety or justice. I never said that the chilling affect was the intended outcome. 

I think it's clear that the way the honor code is set up is rife for opportunities for rapists to go unpunished, as the honor code provides incentives not to report rape. 

And on a related note, the honor code also provides students with plenty of incentive not to confess sins to their bishops as well. 

These are examples of the unintended consequences of the Honor Code.  It does create incentives to not report a rape or other crimes.  It can be a motivating factor in false reports. And I agree, it is an incentive not to confess and can impede the repentance process.  It is the Freakonomics consequences but that should be a discussion for another thread.  

[Gray]

39 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You said what you said. Twice now. "Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew."

When you attempt to paraphrase what I say, you end up distorting what I say. If you think I mean something other than what I said, it's probably best to ask and verify. 

[USU78]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I said it's criminal.  And if Jim isn't credible enough, try the BYU professor.   http://fox13now.com/2016/04/07/byu-professor-says-majority-of-rape-kits-collected-in-seven-utah-counties-went-unprocessed/ .  To which I'm sure you were aware of.  

Sorry.  Not impressed with professors qua professors.  That appeal to authority falls flat.

Besides, as set forth above, we don't know the circumstances of each of the cases for which each of those kits were collected.  A much more interesting stat would be how many prosecutions were ruined because of a long wait for evidence to be processed by the lab.

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, Gray said:

When you attempt to paraphrase what I say, you end up distorting what I say. If you think I mean something other than what I said, it's probably best to ask and verify. 

I quoted you word for word. Here it is again: "Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew." No one is saying punishing a victim for being out after curfew is more important than bringing a rapist to justice or keeping a school safe. The statement is a straw man.

[bsjkki]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?page=4

[Rivers]

This goes to show that the strict rules at BYU exist for good reasons.

[Gray]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?fullpage=1

 

Quote

Investigating students who report violent crimes is "a misplaced priority" that keeps schools from confronting sexual violence, said S. Daniel Carter, a campus security consultant who helped author federal laws that require colleges to track and report crimes on campus.

Title IX does not prohibit punishing students who report an assault for violating other school rules, but "it's not best practices," he said.

"It's hurtful to survivors, and most significantly it's the kind of thing that will have a chilling effect on survivors coming forward. It's contrary to an institution's goal of combating sexual violence. Do you want to remove violent predators from your campus or do you want to penalize victims for minor violations?"

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Gray

[Gray]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I quoted you word for word. Here it is again: "Surely seeing sex offenders brought to justice and keeping the school safe is more important than punishing some young women for being out after curfew." No one is saying punishing a victim for being out after curfew is more important than bringing a rapist to justice or keeping a school safe. The statement is a straw man.

Yes, you get it right when you quote me word for word. But your response to my quote tells me you're still not understanding what I was saying. I never claimed anyone was saying it. Given that fact, it's not a strawman - but your characterization of what I said is a strawman. 

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, Gray said:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?fullpage=1

 

 

More:

 

Quote

"Emily" was on a date in July 2015 with a student from another school when he began fondling her as she fought back and told him to stop, she said. According to a rape charge pending in 4th District Court, police wrote that they also found bite marks on Emily's body.

Emily asked to use a pseudonym because her attacker has threatened her.

In January, the man followed Emily to a campus building where she works as a janitor and hid in a bathroom; he jumped out, pinned her to a wall and threatened to kill her, according to a subsequent kidnapping and witness retaliation charge.

BYU police do not refer criminal investigations to the Honor Code Office, said Lt. Arnold Lemmon.

"We're not out there digging up dirt on students and shipping it to the Honor Code Office," he said.

But officers are required to notify victims of their options under Title IX. The detective over Emily's second attack told her that the Title IX office could connect her to services.

Instead, Emily said, the office opened an Honor Code investigation into her conduct.

"[Westerberg] said ... that's part of the policy: Any time a sexual assault is reported, they have to send it to the Honor Code Office," Emily recalled. "She said that her hands were tied by the policy. ... I asked her, 'I don't understand what you're saying.' She said, 'We have an Honor Code policy at BYU and we don't apologize for that.'

"That killed me, because I've never broken the Honor Code, ever, and here it was being used to say it was my fault, what had happened to me," Emily said.

This is terrible. Victims should not be treated this way. 

[ALarson]

15 minutes ago, Gray said:

But officers are required to notify victims of their options under Title IX. The detective over Emily's second attack told her that the Title IX office could connect her to services.

Instead, Emily said, the office opened an Honor Code investigation into her conduct.

"[Westerberg] said ... that's part of the policy: Any time a sexual assault is reported, they have to send it to the Honor Code Office," Emily recalled. "She said that her hands were tied by the policy. ... I asked her, 'I don't understand what you're saying.' She said, 'We have an Honor Code policy at BYU and we don't apologize for that.'

"That killed me, because I've never broken the Honor Code, ever, and here it was being used to say it was my fault, what had happened to me," Emily said.

Why is the Title IX office required to give confidential statements (that were given to the police) to the Honor Code Office at BYU?  

Is this something that takes place between all Title IX offices and other private universities?

.

Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson

[Gray]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Why is the Title IX office required to give confidential statements (that were given to the police) to the Honor Code Office at BYU?  

Is this something that takes place with between all Title IX offices and other private universities?

.

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that. 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Yes, you get it right when you quote me word for word. But your response to my quote tells me you're still not understanding what I was saying. I never claimed anyone was saying it. Given that fact, it's not a strawman - but your characterization of what I said is a strawman. 

 

[Russell C McGregor]

10 hours ago, Gray said:

"That killed me, because I've never broken the Honor Code, ever, and here it was being used to say it was my fault, what had happened to me," Emily said.

Not as far as I can see.

All anyone did was ask the question. If she's never broken the Honor Code, then that's that.

She's upset that the question is being asked, so she emotes about how she thinks that someone's blaming her for the rape.

But where, if anywhere, is there any evidence that that's the case?

10 hours ago, Gray said:

This is terrible. Victims should not be treated this way. 

What way, exactly?

 

[Storm Rider]

17 hours ago, bsjkki said:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?page=4

The following is the sum total of the article linked above:

• "I talked to them for two hours. … They asked me to tell them everything," Brooke said.

  The two men said they'd pray about her case, she said.

  The next day, she learned she'd been kicked out of school and couldn't reapply for two years.

  "I thought, I'm reporting someone who raped someone," Brooke said. "Why would they punish me?"

  ealberty@sltrib.com, jmiller@sltrib.com, rpiper@sltrib.com

Am I missing something?  This is not very much reporting.