BYU Rape Awareness Conference

[mtomm]

5 minutes ago, cinepro said:

This is an odd conversation.  The "disagreement" seems to be the classic balance between mercy and justice.  If a student is sexually assaulted on campus (however rare that event might be), does the fact that they may face disciplinary actions based on the location or circumstances of the assault add undue punishment, or decrease the likelihood that the assaulter will be reported?

It seems the obvious solution is to accept the assault itself as the most extreme punishment for the victim's other infractions, and therefore justice has been satisfied. 

Which is what we do all of the time when parents put their children in dangerous situations that cause harm or death.  But rape Victims[TM] at BYU, it appears, do not get the same consideration.

(I mean really how do we even know they are "victims[TM]?" )

Edited April 11, 2016 by mtomm

[USU78]

11 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said:

If woman are afraid to report rape, then it will have low amounts of reported rape.

Arguentum ex silentio?  We are to assume rape in the absence of evidence to the contrary?  Really?

[cinepro]

7 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

A moral panic is an extraordinarily dangerous phenomenon, and it's unprovable assertions like the above that feed it.

 

 

Honestly, a Mormon warning about the dangers of "moral panic" is a little ironic...

 

 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Daniel Peterson said:

 

You're free, of course, to do whatever you like.

 

But the notion that BYU is a more dangerous place than other colleges or universities -- such that your daughter would be safer attending one of them in preference to enrolling at BYU -- is, so far as I can tell, simply and spectacularly wrong.  I believe that the statistics bear me out in saying that BYU is one of the safest college campuses in the United States.

Not if she were raped and had to remain silent for fear of retribution.  

[cinepro]

17 hours ago, strappinglad said:

If the kid runs out into the road at night and gets hit by a perfectly sober driver who was driving well within the speed limit, will the police/court take the circumstances into account any differently that if the driver had been speeding drunk on the clear sunny day? Should they? The kid is still dead so NO. Right?

This might answer your question...

 

[Buckeye]

28 minutes ago, cinepro said:

This is an odd conversation.  The "disagreement" seems to be the classic balance between mercy and justice.  If a student is sexually assaulted on campus (however rare that event might be), does the fact that they may face disciplinary actions based on the location or circumstances of the assault add undue punishment, or decrease the likelihood that the assaulter will be reported?

It seems the obvious solution is to accept the assault itself as the most extreme punishment for the victim's other infractions, and therefore justice has been satisfied. 

Yep. As in so many situations (beginning with Adam and Eve) there is a conflict between competing virtues. Our decisions reflect which of those values we most prize. In this instance, the competing values are (1) encouraging the reporting of sex offenses and accompanying value that comes from such reporting for the individual, personally, and the community, collectively - verses (2) strictly applying the honor code so that all are punished equally (by the HC office) for the same infractions. Some on this board apparently value most the strict adherence to the law. Others value most the knowledge gained by the HC through better reports. Personally, I'm in group (1) because I believe the gains made by the honor code office through better reporting of sexual abuse far outweighs any costs to the office from some who may feel that a victim wrongfully escaped some measure of justice. But I can see both sides.

Perhaps there's a middle way. I'm just thinking off the top of my head, but what if the HC policy was this: "a person who reports being sexually victimized will at most receive the smallest penalty that the HC office can issue" - say a requirement that the person return in one semester's time to discuss whether they've committed further infractions. Perhaps this would still deter some reporting or cause unnecessary trauma, but I'm thinking along the lines of our judicial system which allows for leniency for criminals who cooperate with law enforcement.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Buckeye

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

What is the honor code doing to prevent rape? We have laws on the books to punish rapists already. But that doesn't help if rape goes unreported. 

Reporting the rape doesn't prevent the rape.

Avoiding dangerous situations by abstaining from drinking, recreational drug use and staying out late with can prevent the rape from occurring in the first place.

 

 

[Danzo]

29 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said:

" Colleges with low amounts of reported crime are valued as being safer"

 

If woman are afraid to report rape, then it will have low amounts of reported rape.

Are you saying BYU has a high incident of rape because of its lower reported rape?

[Buckeye]

17 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Reporting the rape doesn't prevent the rape.

Avoiding dangerous situations by abstaining from drinking, recreational drug use and staying out late with can prevent the rape from occurring in the first place.

 

 

Actually, both reporting and avoiding bad situations help to prevent future rapes. 

If you're tying to minimize rape, the question becomes which policy would best reduce rapes - allowing amnesty for victims so that more reporting takes place, or enforcing law against victims as further encouragement for people to stay out of dangerous situations to begin with. As I said above, I'm in the first camp. There is considerable help to the system that would come through better reporting. I'm very dubious that people will avoid dangerous situations that they otherwise would have entered solely because of the added threat that, if they happen to victimized, they'll face consequences if they want to report it. 

In my experience people who are choosing a dangerous environment are not really prone to considering a hypothetical tertiary consequence such as what we're discussing. So the current HC policy has little-to-no positive effect in encouraging good behavior, but it does have a very significant negative effect in deterring reporting. So apart from all the emotional issues (which are real), it's simply just really bad policy.

 

EDIT TO ADD: I don't have time to gather cites right now, but I've read several reports showing that overall safety in the airline and medical industries increase when pilots and doctors are incentivized to report their mistakes under an assurance that they will not be personally punished for those mistakes.  In these systems, even though some measure of justice is given up (the pilots and doctors are not punished for errors in judgement or even violations of policy), the overall performance of the respective systems improves dramatically.

I believe the same would happen if victims of sexual assault were to be given amnesty. Dan Peterson is correct that BYU is one of the safer campuses around. But it could, and should, be even safer. Changing the BYU policy to reflect that of Southern Virginia would be an improvement.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Buckeye

[Danzo]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not if she were raped and had to remain silent for fear of retribution.  

And you know this how?

[USU78]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Not if she were raped and had to remain silent for fear of retribution.  

This is a real head-scratcher, Tacenda.  If she were to speak up, report, and stand up in Court against her rapist, not only does she empower herself, she serves both woman- and mankind by helping take the scumbag sleazeball bully down and put him away so nobody else gets victimized.

If she, on the other hand, were to be silent, eschew the rape kit, refuse to identify the attacker for so trivial a thing as standing at a parochial college, just what would that reveal about her values?

Rape shield laws drive public policy on such things as permitting the sexual history of the victim to be at issue  ...  that public policy is a narrow one, however, and does not extend to religious-based schools' enrollment policies.  Indeed, the worst thing that could happen would be for the State to impose policies on private, religion-based schools.

"Retribution" under the circumstances described is not retribution at all, unless I'm really missing something.  What am I missing, I who am the father of daughters who am a hell-raiser and knife-fighter when circumstances warrant?

[consiglieri]

It is a good thing that BYU does not hold a victim of rape responsible for breaking the honor code.

On the other hand, we should be cautious as this provides an additional incentive for those who engage in consensual sex (i.e., break the honor code) to later claim it was non-consensual (in order to avoid breaking the honor code).

It is a complex issue, but we would be remiss in overlooking this obvious aspect.

And this aspect would be less serious if it didn't necessarily involve alleging rape against someone who is entirely innocent.

[mtomm]

22 minutes ago, cinepro said:

This might answer your question...

 

That's interesting because I was taught over and over again from my driver's ed teaching dad that the pedestrian always has the right-of-way even if they are not in a cross walk, etc. I never questioned his judgement on that but then I'm not sure it was actually the law. I bet this is an awesome podcast. Thought the book was very thought-provoking.

[Danzo]

12 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Actually, both reporting and avoiding bad situations help to prevent future rapes. 

If you're tying to minimize rape, the question becomes which policy would best reduce rapes - allowing amnesty for victims so that more reporting takes place, or enforcing law against victims as further encouragement for people to stay out of dangerous situations to begin with. As I said above, I'm in the first camp. There is considerable help to the system that would come through better reporting. I'm very dubious that people will avoid dangerous situations that they otherwise would have entered solely because of the added threat that, if they happen to victimized, they'll face consequences if they want to report it. 

In my experience people who are choosing a dangerous environment are not really prone to considering a hypothetical tertiary consequence such as what we're discussing. So the current HC policy has little-to-no positive effect in encouraging good behavior, but it does have a very significant negative effect in deterring reporting. So apart from all the emotional issues (which are real), it's simply just really bad policy.

 

EDIT TO ADD: I don't have time to gather cites right now, but I've read several reports showing that overall safety in the airline and medical industries increase when pilots and doctors are incentivized to report their mistakes under an assurance that they will not be personally punished for those mistakes.  In these systems, even though some measure of justice is given up (the pilots and doctors are not punished for errors in judgement or even violations of policy), the overall performance of the respective systems improves dramatically.

I believe the same would happen if victims of sexual assault were to be given amnesty. Dan Peterson is correct that BYU is one of the safer campuses around. But it could, and should, be even safer. Changing the BYU policy to reflect that of Southern Virginia would be an improvement.

I am not against providing amnesty to rape victims, each case should be decided on a case by case basis.

The purpose of the honor code (as far is I know, I didn't go to BYU) isn't to provide justice, but to help keep the environment clean.

I fail to see how it would help anyone if someone were allowed to continue violating the Honor code just because they were a victim.

I wouldn't want the policy to be written "go ahead, let him get wasted every weekend, its all right he's victim so he gets a pass"

[Buckeye]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

I am not against providing amnesty to rape victims, each case should be decided on a case by case basis.

The purpose of the honor code (as far is I know, I didn't go to BYU) isn't to provide justice, but to help keep the environment clean.

I fail to see how it would help anyone if someone were allowed to continue violating the Honor code just because they were a victim.

I wouldn't want the policy to be written "go ahead, let him get wasted every weekend, its all right he's victim so he gets a pass"

That's not what I was advocating. If a victim is given amnesty, but later commits another HC infraction, the amnesty would not cover that.

And to be clear, I highly value justice (and a clean environment). But sometimes justice is messy. This is a prime example of when some justice should fall by the wayside. In a world with perfect information we could afford different policies. 

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, Buckeye said:

That's not what I was advocating. If a victim is given amnesty, but later commits another HC infraction, the amnesty would not cover that.

And to be clear, I highly value justice (and a clean environment). But sometimes justice is messy. This is a prime example of when some justice should fall by the wayside. In a world with perfect information we could afford different policies. 

you are right, justice is very messy. Each case is different and I don't think a one sized fits all approach is desirable.  I would hope that mercy would be extended toward one who has suffered by being a victim of such a heinous crime.

 

[Storm Rider]

21 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Yep. As in so many situations (beginning with Adam and Eve) there is a conflict between competing virtues. Our decisions reflect which of those values we most prize. In this instance, the competing values are (1) encouraging the reporting of sex offenses and accompanying value that comes from such reporting for the individual, personally, and the community, collectively - verses (2) strictly applying the honor code so that all are punished equally (by the HC office) for the same infractions. Some on this board apparently value most the strict adherence to the law. Others value most the knowledge gained by the HC through better reports. Personally, I'm in group (1) because I believe the gains made by the honor code office through better reporting of sexual abuse far outweighs any costs to the office from some who may feel that a victim wrongfully escaped some measure of justice. But I can see both sides.

Perhaps there's a middle way. I'm just thinking off the top of my head, but what if the HC policy was this: "a person who reports being sexually victimized will at most receive the smallest penalty that the HC office can issue" - say a requirement that the person return in one semester's time to discuss whether they've committed further infractions. Perhaps this would still deter some reporting or cause unnecessary trauma, but I'm thinking along the lines of our judicial system which allows for leniency for criminals who cooperate with law enforcement.

Yeah, not so much.  I call the price of one person, my friend's daughter was the example I gave, that went home because she had roommates that blatantly ignored the honor code.  Rather than put up with it, she went back home to Florida.  So the harm done to her is nothing?  No price to community; no price to her as an individual.  However, some individual lives dangerously and she is raped and kill the rapist and forgive the girl!  Why?  She suffered a rape and there fore should be forgiven of everything else she was doing.  

Oops, I got caught drinking and taking drugs - what do I do?  Allege rape and all is forgiven.  Never happen you say, right - that victim world view you have needs to raise its head and actually see the reality.  What type of society are we trying to create?  Are people responsible for their actions or not?  Women are not responsible.....why?  Because they had a horrible experience.  How often do we use this standard in society?  I think it does happen, but for whom is it applied and when is it ignored?  How many people of color get to use the same standard?  How many people in poverty get to use it as an excuse?  How many fat people get to use it?  This is hypocrisy in action and it is paraded about as if it is noble. 

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Yeah, not so much.  I call the price of one person, my friend's daughter was the example I gave, that went home because she had roommates that blatantly ignored the honor code.  Rather than put up with it, she went back home to Florida.  So the harm done to her is nothing?  No price to community; no price to her as an individual.  However, some individual lives dangerously and she is raped and kill the rapist and forgive the girl!  Why?  She suffered a rape and there fore should be forgiven of everything else she was doing.  

Oops, I got caught drinking and taking drugs - what do I do?  Allege rape and all is forgiven.  Never happen you say, right - that victim world view you have needs to raise its head and actually see the reality.  What type of society are we trying to create?  Are people responsible for their actions or not?  Women are not responsible.....why?  Because they had a horrible experience.  How often do we use this standard in society?  I think it does happen, but for whom is it applied and when is it ignored?  How many people of color get to use the same standard?  How many people in poverty get to use it as an excuse?  How many fat people get to use it?  This is hypocrisy in action and it is paraded about as if it is noble. 

Whoa

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Whoa

My reaction too!

[bsjkki]

49 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

I keep hearing assertions like this. But I wonder how credible they are. If "most sexual assaults already go unreported" then how would anyone know?

A moral panic is an extraordinarily dangerous phenomenon, and it's unprovable assertions like the above that feed it.

I've read the link. It's one page of assertions that raise more questions than they answer.

OTOH, A number of recent high-profile rape accusations were subsequently withdrawn, in circumstances that made it seem likely that they were fabricated. Telling people that an accusation of sexual assault covers a multitude of sins incentivizes false reporting and seems like a fairly reliable way to increase the number and frequency of false reports.

 

This report details rape among college aged females. I trust the Department of Justice is reporting reliable statistics about the non-reporting percentages of rape.  Page nine of the link contains the non-reporting statistics and breaks down the reasons why they go unreported. I can't help it if you don't believe the academics and statisticians are credible.  

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

I agree false rape allegations are incredibly damaging to both the accused and all future rape victims.  One of the major reason girls don't report is because they don't think they will be believed.  This link is from 2003 but the lead investigator for the BYU police department reported 90% of rapes go unreported.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiii-eLwYfMAhUO9GMKHbRfDCMQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deseretnews.com%2Farticle%2F515039389%2F90-of-Provo-rapes-not-reported-to-police.html%3Fpg%3Dall&usg=AFQjCNFQjX0hUVSxc3rjq5E6GZW5OSauMg&sig2=FlNJgjJppxM9iHOyZWcDcg&bvm=bv.119028448,bs.1,d.amc

[toon]

6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Case #1 - You were raped last night?  Yes

Can you tell me the circumstances leading up to the rape?  Yes, I was walking to my dorm room and someone grabbed me from behind, hit me over the head, dragged me into a secluded location and raped me.  - No problems, no gnashing of teeth, no cruelty.

Case #2 - You were raped last night?  Yes

Can you tell me the circumstances leading up to the rape?  Yes, I was out partying, drinking beer and smoking pot, and this guy I did not know raped me.  CRUELTY and evil actions on behalf of the BYU police. 

What?  Where does this bizarre projection of wrong doing come from?  Either way the individual is going to be asked about the circumstances leading up to the rape.  I think we have a far different understanding of what is and what is not cruel.

How about?

You were raped last night?  Yes.

Ok, we're going to let the legal authorities investigate, and we'll cooperate fully.  Is there anything we can do to help?

[Gray]

55 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Reporting the rape doesn't prevent the rape.

Avoiding dangerous situations by abstaining from drinking, recreational drug use and staying out late with can prevent the rape from occurring in the first place.

 

 

You don't think rapists being conspicuously brought to justice helps would-be rapists think twice about doing it? 

A specific rapist who was able to get away with it once by taking advantage of girls who have broken the honor code is going to do it again. 

[toon]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

Reporting the rape doesn't prevent the rape.

Avoiding dangerous situations by abstaining from drinking, recreational drug use and staying out late with can prevent the rape from occurring in the first place.

 

 

Oh my goodness!  Victim blaming at its best.

Convicting rapists sends a message to would be rapists.

Frankly, I'm really disgusted by many of the posts on this board.  It's one thing to try and justify BYU's approach (assuming that's truly the approach); it's quite another to post the above.

[Jeanne]

Just now, toon said:

Oh my goodness!  Victim blaming at its best.

Convicting rapists sends a message to would be rapists.

Frankly, I'm really disgusted by many of the posts on this board.  It's one thing to try and justify BYU's approach (assuming that's truly the approach); it's quite another to post the above.

Not to mention that rape can happen anytime...I mean, there is forceful rape without the drinking and late hours. 

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Yeah, not so much.  I call the price of one person, my friend's daughter was the example I gave, that went home because she had roommates that blatantly ignored the honor code.  Rather than put up with it, she went back home to Florida.  So the harm done to her is nothing?  No price to community; no price to her as an individual.  However, some individual lives dangerously and she is raped and kill the rapist and forgive the girl!  Why?  She suffered a rape and there fore should be forgiven of everything else she was doing.  

Oops, I got caught drinking and taking drugs - what do I do?  Allege rape and all is forgiven.  Never happen you say, right - that victim world view you have needs to raise its head and actually see the reality.  What type of society are we trying to create?  Are people responsible for their actions or not?  Women are not responsible.....why?  Because they had a horrible experience.  How often do we use this standard in society?  I think it does happen, but for whom is it applied and when is it ignored?  How many people of color get to use the same standard?  How many people in poverty get to use it as an excuse?  How many fat people get to use it?  This is hypocrisy in action and it is paraded about as if it is noble. 

My "whoa" comment had more but my phone is hard to type anything on because the minute I put any word with "i" in it, it will jump up to the address bar.  

I guess one thing that is important and might settle this is...what kind of discipline is there if one breaks the code, such as drinking or being found in a guy's dorm room?  I kind of read through the HC and think it means they are possible kicked out of school.  So right there you can see that a girl who's been raped and did make a wrong choice, such as the examples mentioned, she might think twice before reporting it.  And the rapist may well know this, which may well have given him the feeling that he won't get caught.  A lot of 'mays' or 'mights' but something to think about.