BYU Rape Awareness Conference

[strappinglad]

Had Elizabeth Smart , without any coercion , voluntarily left with a charismatic head of a commune who was known to womanize , would the public be as sympathetic to her story?

Because it is a free country, I have every right to walk into a biker bar. The folks there would be totally responsible for any assault they perpetrated upon me. The fact that, after a few drinks , I made a suggestive remark to one of the biker's girl friends , should in no way absolve my attacker from his handing me my head.

[Bernard Gui]

This has become a highly-charged emotional issue which muddies up the ethical and moral waters.

A rapist should be prosecuted by appropriate legal authorities, and if a BYU student would be expelled from BYU and excommunicated from the Church. The victim should receive every support available from family, church, friends, and society. If the victim was engaged in conduct that violated the Honor Code incident to the rape, that should be accounted for as a separate issue, but not as a means of excusing the perpetrator or placing any blame on the victim for the crime.

 If a BYU student gets high with friends, rides home with a drunk driver, and is injured in a wreck, sympathy for the tragic life-changing injuries would not make him less culpable for violating the Honor Code by going to the party and getting stoned.

Having something bad happen does not give us a free pass or an excuse for prior wrong behavior.

 

Edited April 10, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Paddy]

Why would the police be contacting the honour code office about anything anyway. Are the BYU police employed by BYU? Do they have a legal obligation to advise an honour code office of a university of violations? Seems kind of weird...

[Storm Rider]

5 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Why would the police be contacting the honour code office about anything anyway. Are the BYU police employed by BYU? Do they have a legal obligation to advise an honour code office of a university of violations? Seems kind of weird...

Yes, the BYU police are employed by BYU.  They are not a part of the Provo Police Department.

[Sleeper Cell]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

  The victim should not be made to feel guilt or shame when raped.  No means no.  It is time for the LDS Church to emphasize this. The fact that the holy and mighty BYU honor code may be invoked to evict a student from the collage because they may be "culpable" in part is sickening. The fact that it would cause the victim to be reluctant to report is evil in my view at least.  

Are you aware of any example of a rape victim ever being expelled from BYU because they “may be culpable in part?”

[cinepro]

37 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

This has become a highly-charged emotional issue which muddies up the ethical and moral waters.

A rapist should be prosecuted by appropriate legal authorities, and if a BYU student and would be expelled from BYU and excommunicated from the Church. The victim should receive every support available from family, church, friends, and society. If the victim was engaged in conduct that violated the Honor Code incident to the rape, that should be accounted for as a separate issue, but not as a means of excusing the perpetrator or placing any blame on the victim for the crime.

 If a BYU student gets high with friends, rides home with a drunk driver, and is injured in a wreck, sympathy for the tragic life-changing injuries would not make him less culpable for violating the Honor Code by going to the party and getting stoned.

Having something bad happen does not give us a free pass or an excuse for prior wrong behavior.

 

I think the big difference is that victims of sexual assault can be under extreme pressure to not come forward.  The Honor Code is just an additional factor that would make it less likely for victims to seek justice.

It could also result in especially awful cases where victims are coerced by their attackers (i.e. "You can't report what I just did because you were in my bedroom after curfew so you'll be disciplined too"....."You were at that party drinking and you'll get kicked out of BYU if you report what I did." and so on).

Conversely, if victims are given special exemptions under the Honor Code, it could result in the opposite, with false charges being made against people so the "victim" could take advantage of the special treatment.

It could also be argued that a victim of a sexual assault has already been punished in the worse way possible, and that any further action from BYU is redundant.

 

So it seems there are risks either way, and no clear answer that would be just to everyone. 

 

[Sleeper Cell]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

And if the victim is in a culture that creates a dynamic that would cause them to be heaped with guilt and shame as a result of the crime inflicted on them... well that is simple wrong.

Doesn’t this “culture” (presumably the BYU honor code culture) also create a dynamic that deprives the rapist of the “mutual consent” defense -- at least as far as BYU is concerned?  Even if the rapist successfully used such a defense at trial, wouldn’t he be kicked out of BYU anyway?  

Isn’t it possible that this “culture” also creates a dynamic that reduces the number of rapes?  For starters, by strongly discouraging drinking and illegal drug use and getting into other “high risk“ situations. (Please.  I am not suggesting that a victim who engages in such activities is in any way to blame for being raped)

I do not know the statistics, but I would suspect that, as a group, those males who have agreed to the BYU honor code are less likely to commit rape than those male college students who have not. If this turns out to be true, wouldn’t this also suggest that the BYU honor code creates a dynamic that reduces the number of rapes? 

[cinepro]

FWIW, the Ensign published an account of the effects on an LDS girl of being date-raped (by an LDS boy).  While the psychological fallout may vary among victims of such abuse, certainly there is nothing in the article that makes me think that had she been a student at BYU and attacked during an honor code violation, an additional punishment at the hands of the college would be necessary or appropriate.

Read the article and let me know if you think otherwise:

A Hole In Her Soul

[Paddy]

45 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Yes, the BYU police are employed by BYU.  They are not a part of the Provo Police Department.

Ok thanks. 

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, cinepro said:

FWIW, the Ensign published an account of the effects on an LDS girl of being date-raped (by an LDS boy).  While the psychological fallout may vary among victims of such abuse, certainly there is nothing in the article that makes me think that had she been a student at BYU and attacked during an honor code violation, an additional punishment at the hands of the college would be necessary or appropriate.

Read the article and let me know if you think otherwise:

A Hole In Her Soul

I applaud that Ensign posted this in 2006, we need more like it.  In the article, it states the young woman was still in High School, so no BYU Honor Code.  If any of you on this board have young daughters, they should read this article.

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I think the big difference is that victims of sexual assault can be under extreme pressure to not come forward.  The Honor Code is just an additional factor that would make it less likely for victims to seek justice.

It could also result in especially awful cases where victims are coerced by their attackers (i.e. "You can't report what I just did because you were in my bedroom after curfew so you'll be disciplined too"....."You were at that party drinking and you'll get kicked out of BYU if you report what I did." and so on).

Conversely, if victims are given special exemptions under the Honor Code, it could result in the opposite, with false charges being made against people so the "victim" could take advantage of the special treatment.

It could also be argued that a victim of a sexual assault has already been punished in the worse way possible, and that any further action from BYU is redundant.

 

So it seems there are risks either way, and no clear answer that would be just to everyone. 

 

This expresses my thoughts on it as well.

[Bernard Gui]

50 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I think the big difference is that victims of sexual assault can be under extreme pressure to not come forward.  The Honor Code is just an additional factor that would make it less likely for victims to seek justice.

It could also result in especially awful cases where victims are coerced by their attackers (i.e. "You can't report what I just did because you were in my bedroom after curfew so you'll be disciplined too"....."You were at that party drinking and you'll get kicked out of BYU if you report what I did." and so on).

Conversely, if victims are given special exemptions under the Honor Code, it could result in the opposite, with false charges being made against people so the "victim" could take advantage of the special treatment.

It could also be argued that a victim of a sexual assault has already been punished in the worse way possible, and that any further action from BYU is redundant.

 

So it seems there are risks either way, and no clear answer that would be just to everyone. 

 

It would not be easy to chose between getting justice for an injustice and being embarrassed by the revelation of Honor Code violations. An awful situation I hope very very few ever have to face. Unfortunately, many of us face difficult choices at times in our lives.

A prophet recently said:

 

Quote

 

I have been thinking recently about choices. It has been said that the door of history turns on small hinges, and so do people’s lives. The choices we make determine our destiny.

When we left our premortal existence and entered mortality, we brought with us the gift of agency. Our goal is to obtain celestial glory, and the choices we make will, in large part, determine whether or not we reach our goal.

Most of you are familiar with Alice in Lewis Carroll’s classic novel Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. You will remember that she comes to a crossroads with two paths before her, each stretching onward but in opposite directions. As she contemplates which way to turn, she is confronted by the Cheshire Cat, of whom Alice asks, “Which path shall I follow?”

The cat answers, “That depends where you want to go. If you do not know where you want to go, it doesn’t matter which path you take.”1

Unlike Alice, we know where we want to go, and it does matter which way we go, for the path we follow in this life leads to our destination in the next life.

May we choose to build up within ourselves a great and powerful faith which will be our most effective defense against the designs of the adversary—a real faith, the kind of faith which will sustain us and will bolster our desire to choose the right. Without such faith, we go nowhere. With it, we can accomplish our goals.

Although it is imperative that we choose wisely, there are times when we will make foolish choices. The gift of repentance, provided by our Savior, enables us to correct our course settings, that we might return to the path which will lead us to that celestial glory we seek.

May we maintain the courage to defy the consensus. May we ever choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong.

As we contemplate the decisions we make in our lives each day—whether to make this choice or that choice—if we choose Christ, we will have made the correct choice.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Russell C McGregor]

6 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

This is worth a read: http://www.inquisitr.com/2979357/byu-rape-culture-associate-dean-of-students-does-not-apologize-for-honor-code-that-treats-victims-as-suspects/

It's a bit hard to take seriously an article entitled "BYU Rape Culture?" After all, if "rape culture" means anything that has any connection to the way normal English-speakers use language, then BYU would be the last place on earth to have one.

Except, of course that "rape culture" really doesn't mean anything that has any connection to the way normal English-speakers use language. It's a feminist bludgeon that gets pulled out whenever anyone suggests that it's a good idea for women to avoid dangerous situations.

 

[JulieM]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Nevertheless, I think we as a society feign ignorance if we pretend that a victim of a crime is utterly incapable of contributing to him being in harm's way.  It beggars common sense to suggest that the BYU student above did not put himself in harm's way.  He made unwise choices that put himself at increased - and ultimately realized - risk of harm.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Yes, but no one is responsible for a rape other than the rapist.  They alone are responsible for this horrible act. I hate the insinuations here on this thread that the victim of a rape is at all responsible for being violated and raped.

Edited April 11, 2016 by JulieM

[Jeanne]

Does BYU have any regular police at least checking in once in a while?  Do BYU police work with the City policeman at all in any capacity that had to do with the campus?

[strappinglad]

The Provo Police have jurisdiction over every square inch of the Provo area , public or private. The BYU police are the first responders within the private area known as BYU. If they are not coordinating efforts, something should change.

Edit: I think I should exclude military areas.

Edited April 11, 2016 by strappinglad

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

The Provo Police have jurisdiction over every square inch of the Provo area , public or private. The BYU police are the first responders within the private area known as BYU. If they are not coordinating efforts, something should change.

Edit: I think I should exclude military areas.

Thank you and I agree.

[Jeanne]

31 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yes, but no one is responsible for a rape other than the rapist.  They alone are responsible for this horrible act. I hate the insinuations here on this thread that the victim of a rape is at all responsible for being violated and raped.

I know I am having a hard time with the thread because it reminds me of certain passages in the Miracle of Forgiveness.

[Russell C McGregor]

37 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yes, but no one is responsible for a rape other than the rapist.  They alone are responsible for this horrible act. I hate the insinuations here on this thread that the victim of a rape is at all responsible for being violated and raped.

I'm not seeing any such "insinuations." What I'm seeing are outright assertions that a person is responsible for their own choices, even if someone else does something bad. Acquiring "Victim[TM]" status does not absolve them of responsibility for their own bad choices.

 

[JulieM]

9 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

I'm not seeing any such "insinuations." What I'm seeing are outright assertions that a person is responsible for their own choices, even if someone else does something bad. Acquiring "Victim[TM]" status does not absolve them of responsibility for their own bad choices.

Yes, but not responsible for being raped.  The victim is 0% responsible, do you agree?  The rapist is 100% responsible for the rape, do you agree?

[cinepro]

25 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

I'm not seeing any such "insinuations." What I'm seeing are outright assertions that a person is responsible for their own choices, even if someone else does something bad. Acquiring "Victim[TM]" status does not absolve them of responsibility for their own bad choices.

 

 

Quote

 

 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, even if someone else doeth something bad, acquiring "Victim" status does not absolve you of responsibility for your own bad choices.

 

 

It's like poetry.

Edited April 11, 2016 by cinepro

[Jeanne]

25 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

I'm not seeing any such "insinuations." What I'm seeing are outright assertions that a person is responsible for their own choices, even if someone else does something bad. Acquiring "Victim[TM]" status does not absolve them of responsibility for their own bad choices.

 

I am sorry Russell, but this is sick.  I guess if a kid runs out into the road and a drunk driver kills him...it was just a bad choice.

[Russell C McGregor]

17 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yes, but not responsible for being raped.  The victim is 0% responsible, do you agree?  The rapist is 100% responsible for the rape, do you agree?

Absolutely. Who has said otherwise?

[Russell C McGregor]

4 minutes ago, cinepro said:

 

It's like poetry.

Only if you write poetry on acid.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

5 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am sorry Russell, but this is sick.  I guess if a kid runs out into the road and a drunk driver kills him...it was just a bad choice.

Yes, that's about as much like what I wrote as a carrot is like an orange.

The "kid" shouldn't have run out onto the road. The drunk driver shouldn't have been driving drunk.

The fact that the "kid" got run over by a drunk driver doesn't mean that the decision to run out onto the road is magically transformed into an excellent one.

In exactly the same way, the fact that the drunk driver ran over a "kid" doesn't mean that he's now a "Victim[TM]" who should be excused for driving drunk.

Are we clear now?