Greg Prince Analyzes This Mormon Moment

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, salgare said:

For those that have listened to the podcast, what is your take on how far behind the Church is as far as Biblical Studies goes?

Any thoughts on David Bokovoy, MI moving to Mormon Studies etc.?

I think that given the amount of time we spend in church, our biblical studies could go much deeper.  I don't see our curriculum accommodating that right now except when a ward has particularly exceptional teachers in place (my ward had one such gospel doctrine teacher right now).  I still feel that most of our manuals just tend to proof text the Bible. 

But, to that point, Prince raises (once again) his call for "trickle up revelation" meaning that we need to do our part!

[salgare]

33 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And faithful, believing, loyal Latter-day Saints also have information at their fingertips, information that the attackers don't bother to acquaint themselves with or don't bother to retain once they <are> exposed to it. I can tell this by how easily and frequently I can parry an attack that occurs on this very board simply by appealing to FairMormon Answers or to one of the Church's "Gospel Topics" essays or by relying on my own storehouse of knowledge and information or my own reasoning. 

Thanks Scott.  I was very lucky to have some good mentors.  I pray that these youth will have the same.

"The Letters to a CES Director is a prime example. Responses to it have shown it to be hardly more than a catalog of old attacks against the Church that have been rebutted time and again. There is nothing very thoughtful or original or formidable about it. Daniel peterson characterized it well with a single adjective: exasperating. "

I'm personally not big on the CES letter.  You will not see me commenting on it much if at all.  Same goes for the SSM issues and if I have any sense feminist issues going forward.

I am sorry to the women that I offended there.

Edited January 7, 2016 by salgare

[rockpond]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In some areas of the Church, it is not uncommon to call men in their 20s to such high positions, so that day could come sooner than you think. But not with the outcome you are evidently hoping for/anticipating/expecting.

And it's a new year, perhaps a good time for another countdown clock check on Dehlin's wishful thinking timeline of 40 years.

The clock now stands at 39 years, 1 month, 4 days, 3 hours, 41 minutes and 17 seconds.

 

What outcome do you think I'm hoping/anticipating/expecting?

 

And, I think we're still on track for Dehlin's prediction despite the rather desperate attempt in November to prevent it. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

52 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

OK, so you didn't say "spiritual witness." I believe that such a witness comes incrementally over time through the "lived experience" you describe here. 

I would expect you agree with that, but perhaps not. 

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as contrary. But I genuinely don't always know what people mean when they use the 'spiritual witness' shorthand, and consequently you'll seldom (possibly never) hear it from me.

I also suspect that I'm a bit sensitive owing to those families in our stake who seem to think that a 'spiritual witness' obtained during three days of a pioneer trek will somehow compensate for years in the home without family home evening, daily family prayer, regular scripture study, fasting together, open repentance and testimony bearing, meaningful temple service, intentional preparation for church attendance, frequent opportunities for serving together, etc.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

34 minutes ago, rockpond said:

What outcome do you think I'm hoping/anticipating/expecting?

And, I think we're still on track for Dehlin's prediction despite the rather desperate attempt in November to prevent it. 

Er, didn't you just answer your own question?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

What outcome do you think I'm hoping/anticipating/expecting?

 

And, I think we're still on track for Dehlin's prediction despite the rather desperate attempt in November to prevent it. 

 

36 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Er, didn't you just answer your own question?

Heh. Good point.

And it strikes me that rockpond is constructing his own fanciful scenario when he claims to see desperation in the quiet determination of the First Presidency to hold fast to values and standards of truth in the face of the hue, cry and howling that arisen in recent months.

If anything the desperation is on the part of those who have been faced with the unpleasant (to them) fact that the Church is not going to be displaced by political winds. It makes it that much more difficult for them to entertain fantasies such as Dehlin's prediction.

And we're fast approaching one year since I started the clock running.

 

[salgare]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I also suspect that I'm a bit sensitive owing to those families in our stake who seem to think that a 'spiritual witness' obtained during three days of a pioneer trek will somehow compensate for years in the home without family home evening, daily family prayer, regular scripture study, fasting together, open repentance and testimony bearing, meaningful temple service, intentional preparation for church attendance, frequent opportunities for serving together, etc.

oh my ... burp, fart, sneeze

[salgare]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If anything the desperation is on the part of those who have been faced with the unpleasant (to them) fact that the Church is not going to be displaced by political winds. It makes it that much more difficult for them to entertain fantasies such as Dehlin's prediction.

I think I pointed out upthread what the OP's podcast was suggesting is going to make Dehlin a prophet, unless the church changes.

Tell me about this Greg Prince.  I'm not familiar with him.

it was a good podcast

Pretty impressive list of achievements that have benefited mankind in a very hard area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Prince

 

Edited January 7, 2016 by salgare

[Danzo]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

"Tasted liquor often"?

That's the only part I don't get.

Italians put alcohol in everything they can

[Avatar4321]

8 hours ago, consiglieri said:

God doesn't either, apparently.

And how would you know what God does or doesn't do?

[why me]

10 hours ago, consiglieri said:

How would the LDS Church behave any differently if it weren't led by revelation?

It would probably be more worldly, making decisions to attract more members. And not swimming upstream. The new church policy certainly was not a member grabber. Just the opposite. Thus, the point: revelation or the world.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, salgare said:

oh my ... burp, fart, sneeze

You're looking at this from the wrong angle. It's not some big list; it is merely what Nephi described as 'the manner of happiness' or what prophets have called 'the Christ-centred life'. And one doesn't even remotely have to be perfect at it or get it all right all the time, but, through the grace and merits of Christ, it works despite our limitations and imperfections, bringing peace and happiness to all involved.

And I've grown weary of LDS parents who do absolutely none of these things and then feign shock and surprise when their children show up on Facebook sporting extreme body piercings and spouting faux-sophisticated pro-gay marriage platitudes.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[busybee]

12 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Okay, okay, let me try to contribute something of substance here.

I listened to the interview with my wife last evening, and enjoyed it very much.

I especially resonated with Prince's concluding remarks, including his assertion that the LDS Church, courtesy of the Correlation Committee, is boring the youth out of the Church.

Wow. My daughter serving a mission in Colorado Springs isn't bored. The hundreds of youth in our stake who, per capita, have submitted the most names for temple work in Europe don't seem bored to me. The missionaries serving in our area don't seem bored. Shall I go on?

[busybee]

11 hours ago, salgare said:

And if they do go, it is rumored there is a high rate of depression and early returns.  It's almost cruel to send these young innocent individuals out into an internet savvy world ready to tear them up.

You underestimate the young men and women who choose to serve missions. By the time my daughter left to serve her mission, there were very few criticisms of the church that she hadn't encountered and could hold an informed discussion about. These young people are just as internet savvy (if not more so) than the world they are going into. They might be innocent, of participating in worldly activities, but you are very mistaken if you think they are just dumb kids.

[busybee]

11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've been the mission leader in my ward for the past 26 months. We have had between three and four companionships assigned to our ward that entire time (currently with four Elders and two Sisters), and I've worked closely with each individual missionary (and remain in close post-mission contact with most of them via Facebook and texting). Your description of the situation couldn't be further from what I've experienced as I've served alongside these dynamic, faithful, miracle-working, cheerful, exuberant, deep-thinking, committed young people. What a joy it has been! I love them with all my heart and feel undying gratitude to the families that so willingly send such miracles to us.

I wish I hadn't used up all my rep points. I love this!!!!

[Tacenda]

I was surprised at the comment of racism not going away among members especially since Obama took office a second time against Romney.  But it answered my question when I've wondered why all the hatred against him on my FB feed from some pretty staunch LDS.  Now I think, hey...racism.  And that's because I don't see all the fuss,  every president makes dumb, even worse mistakes...Obama just wants to help people with having health-care, maybe a tad socialist.  But no, he's practically Isis in the eyes of some.  Not to make this political, just bringing up what Prince mentioned and how it clicked.

[rockpond]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Er, didn't you just answer your own question?

No.  Those are two unrelated statements. I relayed a question posed by Prince and Scott's assuming he knows my answer.  I'm curious what he thinks he knows. 

[rockpond]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Heh. Good point.

And it strikes me that rockpond is constructing his own fanciful scenario when he claims to see desperation in the quiet determination of the First Presidency to hold fast to values and standards of truth in the face of the hue, cry and howling that arisen in recent months.

If anything the desperation is on the part of those who have been faced with the unpleasant (to them) fact that the Church is not going to be displaced by political winds. It makes it that much more difficult for them to entertain fantasies such as Dehlin's prediction.

And we're fast approaching one year since I started the clock running.

 

No,I don't see desperation in their attempts to hold fast to values and standards of truth. 

I see desperation in attempts to shield the general membership. 

Yes, it's been almost a year since you started your countdown... And who knew church leadership would step off a proverbial cliff so soon!

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No,I don't see desperation in their attempts to hold fast to values and standards of truth. 

I see desperation in attempts to shield the general membership. 

Yes, it's been almost a year since you started your countdown... And who knew church leadership would step off a proverbial cliff so soon!

They haven't stepped off any cliff. 

They are staying on the Old Ship Zion, as they are encouraging the membership to do. 

Much of what was said and done at the devotional I attended Tuesday was in that context. 

After Elder Ballard finished speaking, a choir sang a song obviously inspired by the title of his general conference talk, "Stay in the Boat and Hold On."

[CV75]

16 hours ago, rockpond said:

In an interview with Gina Colvin on the A Thoughtful Faith podcast, Greg Prince discusses *this* Mormon moment.  Here's a link to the podcast page.  It's a great podcast -- worth the listen regardless of your opinion on the issues.

“I don’t know the way forward yet.  I think that it’s going to be a combination of people at the top exercising their inspiration and the people at the bottom exercising their inspiration as well and somehow coming to a comfortable interface in the middle that takes advantage of both sources.” ~~Greg Prince

He talks about the new policy.  Church growth, activity, and the future.

He asked an interesting question:  What happens when today's 25 year old eventually becomes a Stake President?

Also, he's currently writing a book on the Church and LGBT issues.  Should be a fascinating read.

 

He speculates, talks and asks a question. What specific point do find of most value to discuss?

[Glenn101]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

They haven't stepped off any cliff. 

They are staying on the Old Ship Zion, as they are encouraging the membership to do. 

Much of what was said and done at the devotional I attended Tuesday was in that context. 

After Elder Ballard finished speaking, a choir sang a song obviously inspired by the title of his general conference talk, "Stay in the Boat and Hold On."

Whatever anyone's opinion about what ports the "Old Ship Zion" does and does not hit, it is the only one that will take you to the correct final destination.

[salgare]

3 hours ago, busybee said:

You underestimate the young men and women who choose to serve missions. By the time my daughter left to serve her mission, there were very few criticisms of the church that she hadn't encountered and could hold an informed discussion about. These young people are just as internet savvy (if not more so) than the world they are going into. They might be innocent, of participating in worldly activities, but you are very mistaken if you think they are just dumb kids.

So you would have no problem sending the youth of your ward to say Mormon Think?

 

[salgare]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

He speculates, talks and asks a question. What specific point do find of most value to discuss?

I've pointed to a couple and asked some questions in this thread.  No takers yet

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

They haven't stepped off any cliff. 

They are staying on the Old Ship Zion, as they are encouraging the membership to do. 

Much of what was said and done at the devotional I attended Tuesday was in that context. 

After Elder Ballard finished speaking, a choir sang a song obviously inspired by the title of his general conference talk, "Stay in the Boat and Hold On."

Yes, I've noticed that new recurring theme from the Brethren... stay in the boat!

Interesting how that keeps being emphasized lately.

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

He speculates, talks and asks a question. What specific point do find of most value to discuss?

Did you listen to the podcast?