consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Depends on the youth, I suppose. I covered an event last night in Provo -- the 60th anniversary of the Provo Utah YSA 1st Stake -- at which Elder Ballard spoke. More than 1,000 were in attendance. None seemed bored. My eldest son and those serving with him in the Sweden Stockholm Mission don't seem bored. And there are more young missionaries these days than at any time in history. The youth event of Family Discovery Day at the Church's annual RootsTech family history conference in Salt Lake City held in the Salt Palace is so well-attended that every year they have to turn hundreds away. Did you say you had something of substance to contribute? Elder Ballard spoke and none seemed bored? That's a tough one to swallow, I admit.
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Those headed in the wrong direction are, by definition, going somewhere. Just not where they need to be. My experience in Mormonism is that it is not designed to lead each members anywhere. Just stay where you are and remember which way you face. Remember? The goal is to endure to the end. Not actually progress.
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: The music of the late '50s through the early '70s is the canon; everything that followed is merely counsel or policy. At last we have something we can agree on!
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 8 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: And how would you know what God does or doesn't do? He lives inside me.
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 5 hours ago, why me said: It would probably be more worldly, making decisions to attract more members. And not swimming upstream. The new church policy certainly was not a member grabber. Just the opposite. Thus, the point: revelation or the world. It takes little revelation to keep saying the same old thing. And less still to finally change your policies 20-years after everybody else in the US has changed theirs.
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: They are staying on the Old Ship Zion, as they are encouraging the membership to do. Old Ship Zion hit the correlation iceberg some time back and has been taking on water ever since. The crew is manning the lifeboats but the captain insists the passengers remain aboard. The good news is that at least the bow is still above the surface. And the band plays on. What is it they are playing, you ask? "Stay in the Boat and Hold on."
CV75 Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 13 minutes ago, rockpond said: Did you listen to the podcast? No, but you did and started a thread, presumably to discuss that which is of most value to you. What is that? If it is meaningful to me as well, I'd like to discuss it.
CV75 Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 35 minutes ago, salgare said: I've pointed to a couple and asked some questions in this thread. No takers yet Which is most important to you?
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 17 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I've been the mission leader in my ward for the past 26 months. We have had between three and four companionships assigned to our ward that entire time (currently with four Elders and two Sisters), and I've worked closely with each individual missionary (and remain in close post-mission contact with most of them via Facebook and texting). Your description of the situation couldn't be further from what I've experienced as I've served alongside these dynamic, faithful, miracle-working, cheerful, exuberant, deep-thinking, committed young people. What a joy it has been! I love them with all my heart and feel undying gratitude to the families that so willingly send such miracles to us. As the father of one such missionary, I can say our family has been the object of such gratitude. On New Year's Eve, as we were staying up observing our custom of playing board games while we wait for the new year to come in, we were surprised and delighted to receive an email from Göteborg, Sweden. It was from the family there who was hosting our missionary son, three other elders and two sisters for the holiday. The family sent us some digital images they had shot of the evening's festivities. I responded with a quick thank you note in Swedish (I was a missionary in that land back in the day). The husband, one of the longtime stalwarts in the Church in that city, responded with a longer letter in Swedish. Within the next day, we wrote to each other once more. The experience left me with the calm assurance that with good people like that where he is serving, our son will be well cared for. His testimony -- and the nurturing support system he can rely on -- is strong enough that he won't be swayed by any half-truths he might encounter along the way. 3
rockpond Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: ... he won't be swayed by any half-truths he might encounter along the way. I don't think it's half-truths that are the difficulty. The real problem comes with the whole-truths. 1
rockpond Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 2 hours ago, CV75 said: No, but you did and started a thread, presumably to discuss that which is of most value to you. What is that? If it is meaningful to me as well, I'd like to discuss it. I started the thread to encourage people to listen to the podcast and hear their thoughts on it. There were a number of interesting things. Some have been brought up. I'll throw in another. While I didn't really agree that it provides much resolution, his likening of the various First Vision accounts to the differences between the books of Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John (when read in chronological order of the time they were written) was fascinating. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 23 minutes ago, rockpond said: I don't think it's half-truths that are the difficulty. The real problem comes with the whole-truths. At Tuesday's commemorative devotional in Provo, Elder Ballard said, "Do not get swept away by some of those who try to destroy your faith and your testimony by raising things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities of the life and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith.” Raising "things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities" of gospel truths would constitute half-truths. So would presenting things out of their literary or historical context. That's what I mean by half-truths. Edited January 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
rockpond Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: At Tuesday's commemorative devotional in Provo, Elder Ballard said, "Do not get swept away by some of those who try to destroy your faith and your testimony by raising things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities of the life and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith.” Raising "things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities" of gospel truths would constitute half-truths. So would presenting things out of their literary or historical context. That's what I mean by half-truths. And, as I indicated, it isn't those half-truths that are nearly as damaging as some of the whole truths. But that's a subject for another thread. Did you have any thoughts on Greg Prince's interview?
Jeanne Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: At Tuesday's commemorative devotional in Provo, Elder Ballard said, "Do not get swept away by some of those who try to destroy your faith and your testimony by raising things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities of the life and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith.” Raising "things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities" of gospel truths would constitute half-truths. So would presenting things out of their literary or historical context. That's what I mean by half-truths. By this standard, in reality, the B of M could just half-truth. At least until we decide what is insignificant in comparison to the realities,
CV75 Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 24 minutes ago, rockpond said: I started the thread to encourage people to listen to the podcast and hear their thoughts on it. There were a number of interesting things. Some have been brought up. I'll throw in another. While I didn't really agree that it provides much resolution, his likening of the various First Vision accounts to the differences between the books of Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John (when read in chronological order of the time they were written) was fascinating. I don't have any issue with there being various First Vision Accounts, but reading them in the chronological order in which they were written can be a worthwhile exercise.
HappyJackWagon Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: At Tuesday's commemorative devotional in Provo, Elder Ballard said, "Do not get swept away by some of those who try to destroy your faith and your testimony by raising things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities of the life and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith.” Raising "things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities" of gospel truths would constitute half-truths. So would presenting things out of their literary or historical context. That's what I mean by half-truths. Something may be insignificant to me but important to someone else. Should I dismiss that because it doesn't matter to me? It seems his definition of insignificant is anything that causes doubt or raises questions. Is polygamy insignificant? Is having multiple versions of the First vision insignificant? Is translation method of the BoM and BoA insignificant. Is the late addition of the priesthood restoration insignificant? Answers to those questions seem pretty important to me and they only destroy faith if there is not a solid answer. "Move along. There's nothing to see here." If that's the best church leadership can offer many more people will become dissatisfied. 1
CV75 Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jeanne said: By this standard, in reality, the B of M could just half-truth. At least until we decide what is insignificant in comparison to the realities, Not really. If one has an abiding testimony of the Book of Mormon, everything else he could strive to object to relating to "other things pertaining to our religion" is insignificant in comparison. That is because the Book or Mormon, as another testament of Jesus Christ, literally documents “the fundamental principles of our religion [which] are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven…” 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 10 minutes ago, Jeanne said: By this standard, in reality, the B of M could just half-truth. At least until we decide what is insignificant in comparison to the realities, The Book of Mormon is not a half-truth. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 11 minutes ago, rockpond said: And, as I indicated, it isn't those half-truths that are nearly as damaging as some of the whole truths. But that's a subject for another thread. I don't think you got my point. Quote Did you have any thoughts on Greg Prince's interview? Not at the moment.
Jeanne Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Book of Mormon is not a half-truth. Not in your reality. But in mine there are a lot of questions scientifically and lack of evidences.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, CV75 said: Not really. If one has an abiding testimony of the Book of Mormon, everything else he could strive to object to relating to "other things pertaining to our religion" is insignificant in comparison. That is because the Book or Mormon, as another testament of Jesus Christ, literally documents “the fundamental principles of our religion [which] are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven…” CV75 gets it.
HappyJackWagon Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Book of Mormon is not a half-truth. Calling it a half-truth may be generous.
CV75 Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: "Move along. There's nothing to see here." While that is a poor translation of the overall message, that is a proper attitude to take toward those things that are only appendages, and typically misrepresented appendages at that. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 minute ago, CV75 said: While that is a poor translation of the overall message, that is a proper attitude to take toward those things that are only appendages, and typically misrepresented appendages at that. And that approach is incredibly unsatisfying. Perhaps the church is okay with providing incredibly unsatisfying answers to a large population of its membership but it hardly seems like a sustainable approach.
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