salgare Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Your dismissive attitude is unwarranted and does not do justice to what Elder Ballard said, which is to not let things of relative insignificance destroy what one has learned by the power of the Holy Ghost. so answer my question one up from yours and also found in two other places in this thread. Why were we encouraged to be very careful on the web and they these words of get ready young people for a tough go. Will you send your children to the likes of Mormon Think Scott?
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It presupposes that there are not reasonable and valid answers to the bulk of criticisms that are leveled at the faith of the Latter-day Saints. That's your reality, Scott.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, salgare said: so answer my question one up from yours and also found in two other places in this thread. Why were we encouraged to be very careful on the web and they these words of get ready young people for a tough go. Will you send your children to the likes of Mormon Think Scott? I can't make sense out of the question, let alone respond to it. 1
rockpond Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: No it's not. It presupposes that there are not reasonable and valid answers to the bulk of criticisms that are leveled at the faith of the Latter-day Saints. As I mentioned yesterday, what the attacks on the Church that I cannot readily refute I can generally answer with an appeal to sources such as "FairMormon Answers" or the "Gospel Topics" essays. The ease with which they can be responded to is pretty good evidence that the attacks are not all that well thought out. Your continued references to "attacks" shows that you don't really get where many of us are coming from. I don't worry at all about attacks on the Church. They don't bother me. Never have. Your point of view on this misses the mark.
salgare Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Your statement is a text book example of black and white thinking. The church can do better than that. They need to. if others would actually listen to the pod cast, this very issue as address ... a saying I was not familiar with ... something added to the soup. The idea being that the SLC one size fits all the world is very problematic and it needs to diversify, dare I say to fit these many realities. . 2
salgare Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I can't make sense out of the question, let alone respond to it. Last conference I believe you were told to beware of the internet. Now you are suggesting this talk to the youth was all about getting ready for the world, that they needed to study up. You feel confident that the youth are sharp and strong and will be mentored and taught enough to be ready to face a world who's google searches are going to take them to the likes of Mormon Think. To prepare you children for the world will you encourage them to go to Mormon Think to learn what they will need to defend. In the past the poor missionaries could do nothing but turn red and bear their testimony. So in this last youth talk were they discouraged from "anti-mormon" sites? What sites/source will they be encouraged to study? Are you going to half prepare them or truly turn them into Internet Mormons? Edited January 7, 2016 by salgare 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, salgare said: Last conference I believe you were told to beware of the internet. Now you are suggesting this talk to the youth was all about getting ready for the world, that they needed to study up. You feel confident that the youth are sharp and strong and will be mentored and taught enough to be ready to face a world who's google searches are going to take them to the likes of Mormon Think. To prepare you children for the world will you encourage them to go to Mormon Think to learn what they will need to defend. In the past the poor missionaries could do nothing but turn red and bear their testimony. So in this last youth talk were they discouraged from "anti-mormon" sites? What sites/source will they be encouraged to study? Are you going to half prepare them or truly turn them into Internet Mormons? CFR that they were told at general conference not to look at anti-Mormon sites.. "Beware of the Internet" could be a warning against pornography, good advice for anybody. Did someone specifically say not to look at anti-Mormon material? Where's your documentation? As for MormonThink, I wouldn't forbid it, though I would ensure that they were forearmed by teaching them to know their way around the FairMormon website, "Gospel Topics" essays, etc. And MormonThink is not the best means of educating oneself about Church history or doctrine. I would want them to wait to go there until they already had a good background from reputable sources -- which is what Elder Ballard admonished. Edited January 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
salgare Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: CFR that they were told at general conference not to look at anti-Mormon sites.. "Beware of the Internet" could be a warning against pornography, good advice for anybody. As for MormonThink, I wouldn't forbid it, though I would ensure that they were forearmed by teaching them to know their way around the FairMormon website, "Gospel Topics" essays, etc. And MormonThink is not the best means of educating oneself about Church history or doctrine. I have to get back to work, I think it was President Uchtdorf's talk. Well, the podcast you will not listen to also touched on this exact topic of how to deal with the "cradle Mormons". I'd love to see some actual analysis of an obviously brilliant man with one heck of a resume has to say. But of course that takes us away from all this petty crap. gotta go for awhile.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, salgare said: I have to get back to work, I think it was President Uchtdorf's talk. Well, the podcast you will not listen to also touched on this exact topic of how to deal with the "cradle Mormons". I'd love to see some actual analysis of an obviously brilliant man with one heck of a resume has to say. But of course that takes us away from all this petty crap. gotta go for awhile. So you don't intend to answer the CFR, then? I will feel free to regard your assertion as vacuous. Edited January 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 42 minutes ago, rockpond said: Your continued references to "attacks" shows that you don't really get where many of us are coming from. I don't worry at all about attacks on the Church. They don't bother me. Never have. Your point of view on this misses the mark. An attack by any other name is still noxious.
rockpond Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: An attack by any other name is still noxious. Scott, Over the past couple of years I watch a close family member completely lose their testimony. He wasn't exposed to "attacks". He didn't sin. He is an active, TR holding, high priest. Raised in the church, graduated seminary, served a mission, graduated BYU, married in the temple. His oldest his headed off to BYU in the fall. The loss of his testimony began when he read the gospel topic essay on Race and the Priesthood. I don't see our problems as a church coming from the outside. They aren't attacks or half-truths. Our problems aren't named John Dehlin or Kate Kelly. 2
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: An attack by any other name is still noxious. Even when it isn't an attack, apparently.
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 minute ago, rockpond said: Our problems aren't named John Dehlin or Kate Kelly. Must . . . not . . . type . . . names . . . of . . . our . . . problems . . .
CV75 Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 hour ago, salgare said: I like to hear what people know of this man. I was impressed with his wiki, but I don't know him ... so first http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209575924 In a nutshell, what happened to David Bokovoy and why? http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209575802 Where is this man getting his numbers, are they accurate. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209575818 Oh and Busybee was the last I noticed but it seems there is a several speaking to the preparation of our youth to tackle the internet savvy world. I'd like to hear everyone's answer to this: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209576024 why black and white thinking verses the world wide multiple realities is hurting the Church. Can you express your ideas in your own terms? I've learned from sad experience that looking at any ol' unqualified link is like a bawxa chok-a-luts 'cept itsa turd cullekshun
salgare Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Can you express your ideas in your own terms? I've learned from sad experience that looking at any ol' unqualified link is like a bawxa chok-a-luts 'cept itsa turd cullekshun Did you even click on one dude? They are all my posts and each is a different standalone statement/question. But no bother apparently Scott and you will continue to refuse to listen to the podcast and present some decent discussion here ... so be it. I'm not going to hold your hand further, I've already made simple for you.
rockpond Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 9 minutes ago, salgare said: Did you even click on one dude? They are all my posts and each is a different standalone statement/question. But no bother apparently Scott and you will continue to refuse to listen to the podcast and present some decent discussion here ... so be it. I'm not going to hold your hand further, I've already made simple for you. No worries, Salgare. Even though Scott doesn't want to have any exposure to the actually problems, he is certain that Fair Mormon and the gospel topics essays are the solution.
Calm Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, rockpond said: No worries, Salgare. Even though Scott doesn't want to have any exposure to the actually problems, he is certain that Fair Mormon and the gospel topics essays are the solution. This personal stuff is crap. 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 31 minutes ago, rockpond said: No worries, Salgare. Even though Scott doesn't want to have any exposure to the actually problems, he is certain that Fair Mormon and the gospel topics essays are the solution. Maybe if the so called problems weren't the same issues that were addressed decades ago and simply ignored, the so called problems would get more attention. Instead we get "Church leaders are wrong, you should listen to me instead" 200 year of the same thing gets tiring
rockpond Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 9 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Maybe if the so called problems weren't the same issues that were addressed decades ago and simply ignored, the so called problems would get more attention. Instead we get "Church leaders are wrong, you should listen to me instead" 200 year of the same thing gets tiring Did you listen to the podcast?
rockpond Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 51 minutes ago, Calm said: This personal stuff is crap. That was a response and a rebuttal to specific statements Scott has made on the thread.
DJBrown Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Who runs the church? Does Jesus Christ run the church or not? If He does run the church, the Stake Presidents and Prophet of that day will say and do what He wants them to do. I hate the implication that the church is run by personalities or opinions or generational quirks.
rockpond Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 16 minutes ago, DJBrown said: Who runs the church? Does Jesus Christ run the church or not? If He does run the church, the Stake Presidents and Prophet of that day will say and do what He wants them to do. I hate the implication that the church is run by personalities or opinions or generational quirks. That's a wonderfully simplistic view but how do you square that with, for example, the origin of young adult wards as described by Prince in the podcast episode?
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 7 minutes ago, rockpond said: That's a wonderfully simplistic view but how do you square that with, for example, the origin of young adult wards as described by Prince in the podcast episode? I realise that podcasts are the medium of choice for many ex-Mormons and critics of 'Mormonism', but I don't listen to them for a number of reasons, including: I can read about five times faster than I can listen to something. When I read, I can both skim over bits I'm less interested in and intensely focus on bits I'm more interested in. This is impossible with podcasts. Producing and consuming podcasts are both inherently emotive exercises, not intellectual ones. Meaningful written material usually includes sources and referencing, and if it doesn't, the absence of these is obvious. Podcasts typically don't provide sources; they rely instead on 'the voice of authority'. Based on these and other reasons, research has suggested that obtaining information from podcasts is prone to shallow, emotive interaction with the material presented. If you really wish to discuss information from a podcast with people like me and, clearly, many others in this thread, please take the time to copy out the relevant sections so that they can be understood and engaged properly. 3
Teancum Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: So you don't intend to answer the CFR, then? I will feel free to regard your assertion as vacuous. From Elder Anderson. Not a direct comment on the internet but an implication that disparages it to some extent: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/11/general-priesthood-session/faith-is-not-by-chance-but-by-choice?lang=eng For example, questions concerning the Prophet Joseph Smith are not new. They have been hurled by his critics since this work began. To those of faith who, looking through the colored glasses of the 21st century, honestly question events or statements of the Prophet Joseph from nearly 200 years ago, may I share some friendly advice: For now, give Brother Joseph a break! In a future day, you will have 100 times more information than from all of today’s search engines combined, and it will come from our all-knowing Father in Heaven.19
rockpond Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I realise that podcasts are the medium of choice for many ex-Mormons and critics of 'Mormonism', but I don't listen to them for a number of reasons, including: I can read about five times faster than I can listen to something. When I read, I can both skim over bits I'm less interested in and intensely focus on bits I'm more interested in. This is impossible with podcasts. Producing and consuming podcasts are both inherently emotive exercises, not intellectual ones. Meaningful written material usually includes sources and referencing, and if it doesn't, the absence of these is obvious. Podcasts typically don't provide sources; they rely instead on 'the voice of authority'. Based on these and other reasons, research has suggested that obtaining information from podcasts is prone to shallow, emotive interaction with the material presented. If you really wish to discuss information from a podcast with people like me and, clearly, many others in this thread, please take the time to copy out the relevant sections so that they can be understood and engaged properly. You commented on a thread about a podcast. I asked you a question about your point and how it relates to that podcast. Your conclusions about podcasts show a lack of awareness. There are a wide variety of podcasts out there, the vast majority of which have nothing to do with Mormonism. Many podcasts are intellectual (rather than emotive) and contain interviews with content experts. For people like me, they represent a more valuable way to use driving and exercise time than listening to music or the commercial-riddled talk radio rants. Though they certainly don't replace reading. So, no, I won't transcribe it for you. If you wish to participate meaningfully in a thread about a podcast, it is advisable to listen to the podcast
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