Greg Prince Analyzes This Mormon Moment

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I think they will survive.  (I just had another nephew return and he seems just fine), Another nephew is almost done with his mission had (You might find this amazing!) he doesn't seem to be returning early! (Unbelievable isn't it?)

As I recall, on my mission there were plenty of people who tried to "tear me up".  

For most people (In my experience) a mission is where you encounter the most anti Mormon activity, as well as other trials.   I always tell people there was a time in my life where I viewed pornography every day, tasted liquor often, often spent time with prostitutes and pimps and talked to anti Mormons.  

My Mission! 

"Tasted liquor often"?

That's the only part I don't get.

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, salgare said:

And if they do go, it is rumored there is a high rate of depression and early returns.  It's almost cruel to send these young innocent individuals out into an internet savvy world ready to tear them up.

I've been the mission leader in my ward for the past 26 months. We have had between three and four companionships assigned to our ward that entire time (currently with four Elders and two Sisters), and I've worked closely with each individual missionary (and remain in close post-mission contact with most of them via Facebook and texting). Your description of the situation couldn't be further from what I've experienced as I've served alongside these dynamic, faithful, miracle-working, cheerful, exuberant, deep-thinking, committed young people. What a joy it has been! I love them with all my heart and feel undying gratitude to the families that so willingly send such miracles to us.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

It's just more sniping, indicative of consig's "faith journey" [cough, cough, hack, hack].

Why do you mock someone else's journey by putting it in quotes and adding a sarcastic cough, cough.   You would be full of indignation if someone questioned your testimony as unthinking and blind faith.

And what is your post but sniping?

[salgare]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think you are projecting.

I suppose.  I'm listening to the Greg Prince podcast now, this millennial generation is way different than when we were their age.  I've heard this before ... they don't care about authority or history so much as they are concerned about the experience ... what does it have to offer them.

They are naturally tolerant of  racial, feminist and gender issues of which the church does nothing but battle

Edited January 7, 2016 by salgare

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, Teancum said:

Why do you mock someone else's journey by putting it in quotes and adding a sarcastic cough, cough.   You would be full of indignation if someone questioned your testimony as unthinking and blind faith.

And what is your post but sniping?

There's some history here you are not getting.

Consig accused me of "disparaging" his "faith journey" after I had called him on publicly misrepresenting President Hinckley's intended meaning in a statement he made in an interview.

The cough, cough, hack, hack and the quotation marks are used advisedly.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, salgare said:

I suppose.  I'm listening to the Greg Prince podcast now, this millennial generation is way different than when we were their age.  I've heard this before ... they don't care about authority or history so much as they are concerned about the experience ... what does it have to offer them.

I don't concede that all of the so-called "millennial generation" are that shallow.

Again, it depends on which youth you mean.

 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Depends on the youth, I suppose.

I covered an event last night in Provo -- the 60th anniversary of the Provo Utah YSA 1st Stake -- at which Elder Ballard spoke. More than 1,000 were in attendance. None seemed bored.

My eldest son and those serving with him in the Sweden Stockholm Mission don't seem bored.

And there are more young missionaries these days than at any time in history.

The youth event of Family Discovery Day at the Church's annual RootsTech family history conference in Salt Lake City held in the Salt Palace is so well-attended that every year they have to turn hundreds away.

Did you say you had something of substance to contribute?

I have heard it from more than one GA in various leadership sessions of stake conferences that we are losing youth.   The reason missionary numbers jumped was the lowering of the age for men and women.  It seems clear the lowering. Of the age for males was to lose less between 18 and high schools graduation and that year or so in Netherlands.  

But of you want to sing an all is well in Zion song no worries to me.   But like it or not the church loses a lot of young people for a variety of reasons.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't concede that all of the so-called "millennial generation" are that shallow.

Again, it depends on which youth you mean.

To be honest, my love of the Restored Gospel is pretty experiential as opposed to anything based on history or authority. My lived experience as a Latter-day Saint has been the most awe-inspiring, amazing, transforming thing I could ever have hoped for ... and far beyond anything I had ever imagined.

[salgare]

11 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've been the mission leader in my ward for the past 26 months. We have had between three and four companionships assigned to our ward that entire time (currently with four Elders and two Sisters), and I've worked closely with each individual missionary (and remain in close post-mission contact with most of them via Facebook and texting). Your description of the situation couldn't be further from what I've experienced as I've served alongside these dynamic, faithful, miracle-working, cheerful, exuberant, deep-thinking, committed young people. What a joy it has been! I love them with all my heart and feel undying gratitude to the families that so willingly send such miracles to us.

I'm glad to hear that Hamba.  There are other stories that have not turned out as well.  It would be interesting to see actual Church wide statistics, but of course we are stuck with a non-transparent Church

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I have heard it from more than one GA in various leadership sessions of stake conferences that we are losing youth.   The reason missionary numbers jumped was the lowering of the age for men and women.  It seems clear the lowering. Of the age for males was to lose less between 18 and high schools graduation and that year or so in Netherlands.  

But of you want to sing an all is well in Zion song no worries to me.   But like it or not the church loses a lot of young people for a variety of reasons.

The loss of even one is too many.

But what is being insinuated here is some kind of mass exodus. I don't see that happening yet, except in the fantasies of naysayers.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

To be honest, my love of the Restored Gospel is pretty experiential as opposed to anything based on history or authority. My lived experience as a Latter-day Saint has been the most awe-inspiring, amazing, transforming thing I could ever have hoped for ... and far beyond anything I had ever imagined.

I don't mean to discount or minimize the absolute necessity of a spiritual witness. I'm just saying this need not crumble in the face of speculation, half-truths and ill-informed criticism. Which I think is what you are saying.

At the meeting I attended last night, Elder Ballard urged the young people to prepare themselves with a solid knowledge of Church history and doctrine so they could competently answer any question they encounter. Then he said, "Do not get swept away by some of those who try to destroy your faith and your testimony by raising things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities of the life and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith.”

At this point, it is not self-evident to me that "millennials" are inherently weaker in this respect than any prior generation -- at least not those who have been brought up in the "nurture and admonition of the Lord."

[salgare]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

At this point, it is not self-evident to me that "millennials" are inherently weaker in this respect than any prior generation -- at least not those who have been brought up in the "nurture and admonition of the Lord."

I did not mean to say this.  I don't think they are weaker I think the world they are going into have information at their fingertips they will throw at them.  Its good to hear the leaders are encouraging them to learn this.  However they are not going to learn it at Church and will need to be exposed to the FairMormon question tree, which will likely lead to other non-authorized sites.  A possible slippery slope. 

[Sleeper Cell]

33 minutes ago, salgare said:

I suppose.  I'm listening to the Greg Prince podcast now, this millennial generation is way different than when we were their age.  I've heard this before ... they don't care about authority or history so much as they are concerned about the experience ... what does it have to offer them.

They are naturally tolerant of  racial, feminist and gender issues of which the church does nothing but battle

And much the same thing was said about the baby boomer generation.  

... Then they grew up and voted for Reagan.   

[Duncan]

my Stake President is my age and is a decent level headed guy, I mean he's from Alberta so you get what you get but hey, he's okay!!! My Bishop is a few years younger than me and other than he cries a lot he's good! I've known him going on 14 years, we served in a YSA EQ together and had a blast! 

[salgare]

20 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said:

And much the same thing was said about the baby boomer generation.  

... Then they grew up and voted for Reagan.   

Well one can not argue that!

 

 

 

 

 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The loss of even one is too many.

But what is being insinuated here is some kind of mass exodus. I don't see that happening yet, except in the fantasies of naysayers.

Not sure who said mass exodus.  I didn't. But as I noted I have heard to visiting GAs state the loss of youth was high and a major concern.  

[salgare]

For those that have listened to the podcast, what is your take on how far behind the Church is as far as Biblical Studies goes?

Any thoughts on David Bokovoy, MI moving to Mormon Studies etc.?

Edited January 7, 2016 by salgare

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, salgare said:

I'm glad to hear that Hamba.  There are other stories that have not turned out as well.  It would be interesting to see actual Church wide statistics, but of course we are stuck with a non-transparent Church

I'm not sure what raw statistics would really tell us. I much prefer the rich, full experience of serving alongside dozens of full-time missionaries from the four corners of the globe. My sense is that the Church is only 'non-transparent' to those on the outside trying to look in. In the very centre, where one is a part of everything that is happening, it is both clear and brilliant.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't mean to discount or minimize the absolute necessity of a spiritual witness.

I don't think I said anything about a 'spiritual witness'. I really just meant the lived experience of 'Mormonism' -- what actually happens when one believes in a loving Heavenly Father, prays to Him night and morning, reads the Book of Mormon every day, lives its precepts and allows it to shape one's faith in Christ, pays tithing cheerfully, fasts with real intent, attends the temple regularly, performs priesthood duties faithfully (including home teaching and ministering alongside the full-time missionaries), prepares for and partakes of the sacrament weekly, engages at church meetings and seeks to lift the burdens of fellow Saints, etc.

People promised me particular blessings for doing the above, including but certainly not limited to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, and they weren't joking. The Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ works exactly as promised, reliably, consistently and predictably, from miracles, visions and angelic ministrations to the simple peace that surpasses all understanding and the joy that comes from feeling the burden of sin lift and the power of Christ subtly change my heart. It's like living in the best pages of the Book of Mormon or the New Testament.

As I was reading in the Book of Mormon last night, my housemate (who, at 25, is certainly a millennial), came into my room with his pillow under one arm and his Book of Mormon under the other, lay on the floor (which is his habit when he wants to discuss spiritual things) and began to share with me the very real blessings that have come into his life as he's resumed serious encounters with the Book of Mormon. The thing he kept saying over and over again was, 'It works. It just works'. And he's right.

Quote

At this point, it is not self-evident to me that "millennials" are inherently weaker in this respect than any prior generation -- at least not those who have been brought up in the "nurture and admonition of the Lord."

Agreed; see above. Moreover, when I was a full-time missionary in the 90s, I don't remember inviting people to find out if our history was true. Instead we invited them to pray and then see what happens. To read the Book of Mormon and then see what happens. To attend church and then see what happens. To fast and then see what happens. To start believing certain things and then see what happens.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, salgare said:

However they are not going to learn it at Church...

They will absolutely learn what they really need to know 'at church'.

When I was serving as my ward's Young Men president, I helped one of our boys come back to church. His family hadn't been active since he was about 5 or 6, and he knew nothing at first, but he started coming to church each week by himself, eventually bringing his little brother and sister with him, and in the end being the cause of his parents coming fully back to church. His family asked me to drive him to the airport when he left on his mission, and so we spent those hours talking about everything I could thing of to help him with at the last minute.

I remember asking him something like the following: 'During the next two years, you are going to meet people who tell you that you are crazy, that you are wrong, or that you've been deceived. They're going to tell you that Joseph Smith was a fraud, that God is a mental construct for the emotionally weak, that the Book of Mormon is laughable, that the priesthood you hold isn't real, and so forth. What are you going to say to those people?'

'That's easy', he said with no hesitation. 'I'll tell them I know what I know because I've lived it'. And he had. As just one example, I remember taking him to hospital the same day that I ordained him an elder, to give a blessing to an elderly and very sick member of our ward. He was terrified, but as he laid authorised hands on her head, he was prompted to speak outrageous blessings ... that were all fulfilled in detail before the week was out. His personal experiences with fasting, with prayer, with temple attendance, with daily feasting from the Book of Mormon, etc. -- all learnt at or owing to church -- meant that no one could tell him anything that would shake his faith. When one has lived the reality of all this, such criticisms sound about as silly as those calling out to a man in a bright room at night, trying to convince him that electric lights don't really work.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

44 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But as I noted I have heard to visiting GAs state the loss of youth was high and a major concern.  

The loss of youth in the Church is far, far too high. The last time I was in America, the speakers in a sacrament meeting where I attended recounted a week they'd spent in New Mexico, I think, being trained with the Young Men General Presidency and a couple of apostles. They had been told, they reported, that the single greatest problem facing youth was lack of personal experience in learning and living gospel principles. From my experience serving six years as Young Men president and then two years serving as the bishopric counsellor over Young Men, I concur. For far too many of the boys in our ward, the Gospel was a foreign land that they visited for a few hours on Sunday and then again, briefly, on Tuesday evening. Still, almost all of those who let us help them have personal experiences have grown up to be stalwarts so far.

[salgare]

50 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm not sure what raw statistics would really tell us.

Statistics on early return rates, "honorary" returning missionary that go inactive or leave within five years, percentages of youth going on missions, convert retention rates etc. would tell us the health of the Church right?

The pod cast of this OP, Greg Prince gives some interesting numbers, like 9 out of 10 convert baptism are lost, the "cradle Mormons" are only at 1% which he states is borderline sustainable etc.

Edited January 7, 2016 by salgare

[Hamba Tuhan]

50 minutes ago, salgare said:

Statistics on early return rates, "honorary" returning missionary that go inactive or leave within five years, percentages of youth going on missions, convert retention rates etc. would tell us the health of the Church right?

I know all of those for my ward, which is where I can have impact.

For example, we've had 23 convert baptisms in our ward in the past four years. They break down as follows:

Fully active: 15 (including 8 males ordained to the correct priesthood office)

Less-active but still faithful: 4 (including one who meets regularly with the missionaries at his request, and one whose stepfather has forbidden her church attendance)

Lost: 4 (one who's gone missing, one whose family has joined another church, one who's asked for no contact for now, and one who's requested name removal).

Now that you have that information, what can you personally do with it, beyond feeding your curiosity?

What's the reality on the ground in your ward? And what are you currently doing to bless those involved?

Edited January 7, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, salgare said:

I did not mean to say this.  I don't think they are weaker I think the world they are going into have information at their fingertips they will throw at them.  Its good to hear the leaders are encouraging them to learn this.  However they are not going to learn it at Church and will need to be exposed to the FairMormon question tree, which will likely lead to other non-authorized sites.  A possible slippery slope. 

Um, it was a Church meeting I attended last night (a stake commemorative devotional) at which an apostle urged young single adults to learn all they can about Church history and doctrine so they can be ready to answer questions that are thrust at them and to defend the Church and its leaders against attacks. 

And these are young people who for the most part are in an educational environment where they can be expected to develop study and research skills, and if they don't learn some things at church, they can obtain them from other sources: religion classes, institute courses, knowledgable mentors. Granted not everybody has these advantages, but Elder Ballard told these young people they are to lead the way. 

And faithful, believing, loyal Latter-day Saints also have information at their fingertips, information that the attackers don't bother to acquaint themselves with or don't bother to retain once they <are> exposed to it. I can tell this by how easily and frequently I can parry an attack that occurs on this very board simply by appealing to FairMormon Answers or to one of the Church's "Gospel Topics" essays or by relying on my own storehouse of knowledge and information or my own reasoning. 

The Letters to a CES Director is a prime example. Responses to it have shown it to be hardly more than a catalog of old attacks against the Church that have been rebutted time and again. There is nothing very thoughtful or original or formidable about it. Daniel peterson characterized it well with a single adjective: exasperating. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't think I said anything about a 'spiritual witness'. I really just meant the lived experience of 'Mormonism' -- what actually happens when one believes in a loving Heavenly Father, prays to Him night and morning, reads the Book of Mormon every day, lives its precepts and allows it to shape one's faith in Christ, pays tithing cheerfully, fasts with real intent, attends the temple regularly, performs priesthood duties faithfully (including home teaching and ministering alongside the full-time missionaries), prepares for and partakes of the sacrament weekly, engages at church meetings and seeks to lift the burdens of fellow Saints, etc.

People promised me particular blessings for doing the above, including but certainly not limited to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, and they weren't joking. The Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ works exactly as promised, reliably, consistently and predictably, from miracles, visions and angelic ministrations to the simple peace that surpasses all understanding and the joy that comes from feeling the burden of sin lift and the power of Christ subtly change my heart. It's like living in the best pages of the Book of Mormon or the New Testament.

As I was reading in the Book of Mormon last night, my housemate (who, at 25, is certainly a millennial), came into my room with his pillow under one arm and his Book of Mormon under the other, lay on the floor (which is his habit when he wants to discuss spiritual things) and began to share with me the very real blessings that have come into his life as he's resumed serious encounters with the Book of Mormon. The thing he kept saying over and over again was, 'It works. It just works'. And he's right.

Agreed; see above. Moreover, when I was a full-time missionary in the 90s, I don't remember inviting people to find out if our history was true. Instead we invited them to pray and then see what happens. To read the Book of Mormon and then see what happens. To attend church and then see what happens. To fast and then see what happens. To start believing certain things and then see what happens.

OK, so you didn't say "spiritual witness." I believe that such a witness comes incrementally over time through the "lived experience" you describe here. 

I would expect you agree with that, but perhaps not.