Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Something may be insignificant to me but important to someone else. Should I dismiss that because it doesn't matter to me? Not dismiss it, just don't let it overshadow what you know by the power of the Holy Ghost is true. Elder Ballard's operative phrase being "in comparison to." As President Uchtdorf put it, "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith." Quote "Move along. There's nothing to see here." If that's the best church leadership can offer many more people will become dissatisfied. This is uncalled for. It's not anything like the message that Elder Ballard delivered. My report on the event will be on the Internet shortly, but one of the things he said was Quote “You have to be strengthened to know how to answer some of the criticisms that people are thrusting at the Church. You need to know your Church history well enough that you can answer any questions that anybody asks you about the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or the restoration of the priesthood or any other basic doctrinal, plan-of-salvation question. Why? Because you lead the way. We need to not hesitate preparing ourselves to face the world and anyone in it that might like to criticize the leadership of the Church.” In other words, he's telling them to make themselves more knowledgable, the opposite of what you unjustly impute to Church leaders above. Edited January 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Calling it a half-truth may be generous. Another worthless jab. Maybe you're taking lessons from consig. Edited January 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
CV75 Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: And that approach is incredibly unsatisfying. Perhaps the church is okay with providing incredibly unsatisfying answers to a large population of its membership but it hardly seems like a sustainable approach. LOL that is because you mischaracterize the approach to present it as unsatisfying. I was considering that the attitude of not giving misrepresented appendages undue fretting by granting them priority over the testament of Christ. 2 Nephi 9:50-51, “Come, my brethren, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters; and he that hath no money, come buy and eat; yea, come buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth, nor your labor for that which cannot satisfy. Hearken diligently unto me, and remember the words which I have spoken; and come unto the Holy One of Israel, and feast upon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul delight in fatness.” Edited January 7, 2016 by CV75 add scripture addressing the unsatisifed state
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 8 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Not in your reality. But in mine there are a lot of questions scientifically and lack of evidences. Reality, by definition, cannot contradict itself.
Jeanne Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: Reality, by definition, cannot contradict itself. You and I both live in reality They are just different realities no?
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Jeanne said: You and I both live in reality They are just different realities no? Reality is what it is. If we have conflicting perceptions of reality, perhaps both of us are wrong, but we can't both be right. There is a bit of sophistry that has been floating around for too long to the effect that "perception is reality." That is nonsense. Reality is that railroad tracks run parallel to each other. Perception (or perspective) is that they converge in the distance. Edited January 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
Jeanne Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Reality is what it is. If we have conflicting perceptions of reality, perhaps both of us are wrong, but we can't both be right. There is a bit of sophistry that has been floating around for too long to the effect that "perception is reality." That is nonsense. Reality is that railroad tracks run parallel to each other. Perceptoin (or perspective) is that they converge in the distance. You are right..we both can't be right..so there is a 50-50 chance that you could be wrong, BTW: In my earlier post, I said the B of M COULD be a half-truth.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, Jeanne said: You are right..we both can't be right..so there is a 50-50 chance that you could be wrong, BTW: In my earlier post, I said the B of M COULD be a half-truth. I know what you said. I stand by my denial of it. Or, to express it in a more positive way, I stand by my affirmation that the Book of Mormon is indeed what it purports to be. Edited January 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
HappyJackWagon Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Reality is what it is. If we have conflicting perceptions of reality, perhaps both of us are wrong, but we can't both be right. There is a bit of sophistry that has been floating around for too long to the effect that "perception is reality." That is nonsense. Reality is that railroad tracks run parallel to each other. Perceptoin (or perspective) is that they converge in the distance. Not everything is that black and white so there are in fact multiple realities. For example- In my reality a dangerous, traitorous militia has taken over a government facility in Oregon. To someone else the reality is that brave patriots are protesting peacefully. Our perceptions color how we interact with our reality.
busybee Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 26 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: And that approach is incredibly unsatisfying. Perhaps the church is okay with providing incredibly unsatisfying answers to a large population of its membership but it hardly seems like a sustainable approach. How large do you think this 'large population' that you refer to is?
stemelbow Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: At Tuesday's commemorative devotional in Provo, Elder Ballard said, "Do not get swept away by some of those who try to destroy your faith and your testimony by raising things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities of the life and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith.” Raising "things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities" of gospel truths would constitute half-truths. So would presenting things out of their literary or historical context. That's what I mean by half-truths. Sadly, Scott, this type of message will ring more and more hollow in people's ears. Pinning it all on others trying to destroy someone's faith is not going to work. People will read and learn. It's going to happen. This is not some conspiracy to destroy. Leaders need to start acknowledging those who are leaving and struggling, not because they got swept away by others. Pretending problems are half-truths because they are problems is silly, dismissive, and counter-productive in the long haul. Fewf! it feels like it'll be years down the road before much of this stuff will get worked out. 4
stemelbow Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 I enjoyed the interview. Probably most problematic was the "people in Utah are more racist than people were before the ban" stuff. I don't quite buy it. I get what he was thinking but I think he's way off. And is taking the example of Barak Obama to a place is really really unfair. But he certainly has some extremely interesting ideas. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 16 minutes ago, busybee said: How large do you think this 'large population' that you refer to is? No idea. If we include inactives (50-60% of church membership) the number would be huge. If we take the dissatisfied who are active or recently active then the number would be much smaller but I think still significant. But the actual number or percentage isn't all that important. If some people are leaving the church because they are dissatisfied with the way questions are answered, it would seem like a reasonable assumption that the brethren would want to address that. Otherwise we'd have to conclude that they expect and accept the collateral damage as being inevitable. I doubt that's the case but I'd find it very sad if it were.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 34 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Not everything is that black and white so there are in fact multiple realities. For example- In my reality a dangerous, traitorous militia has taken over a government facility in Oregon. To someone else the reality is that brave patriots are protesting peacefully. Our perceptions color how we interact with our reality. I repeat: reality, by definition, cannot and does not contradict itself. And no, perception does not equate to reality. 2
salgare Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, CV75 said: Which is most important to you? I like to hear what people know of this man. I was impressed with his wiki, but I don't know him ... so first http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209575924 In a nutshell, what happened to David Bokovoy and why? http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209575802 Where is this man getting his numbers, are they accurate. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209575818 Oh and Busybee was the last I noticed but it seems there is a several speaking to the preparation of our youth to tackle the internet savvy world. I'd like to hear everyone's answer to this: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209576024 why black and white thinking verses the world wide multiple realities is hurting the Church. why "cradle Mormonism" is such a slippy slope (for Scotts children and all the youth at the meeting he talks about in this thread) Edited January 8, 2016 by salgare
HappyJackWagon Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I repeat: reality, by definition, cannot and does not contradict itself. And no, perception does not equate to reality. You can keep repeating yourself but that doesn't make it true. Do you honestly not recognize that people can experience different realities? Is my reality as a middle class, white male American the same as the reality of a black woman from Zaire? Do those different realities effect our world view? Would my understanding of reality be identical to hers? Your statement is a text book example of black and white thinking. The church can do better than that. They need to.
Tacenda Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 8 minutes ago, salgare said: I like to hear what people know of this man. I was impressed with his wiki, but I don't know him ... so first http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209575924 In a nutshell, what happened to David Bokovoy and why? http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209575802 Where is this man getting his numbers, are they accurate. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66740-greg-prince-analyzes-this-mormon-moment/?do=findComment&comment=1209575818 Well, he is a scientist. Which I didn't know until listening to the podcast.
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Another worthless jab. Maybe you're taking lessons from consig. Another worthless jab. Who are you taking lessons from? 1
salgare Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: "Do not get swept away by some of those who try to destroy your faith and your testimony by raising things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities of the life and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith.” Nice way of saying; "That is not important to you salvation". I was getting tired of that.
salgare Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Not really. If one has an abiding testimony of the Book of Mormon, everything else he could strive to object to relating to "other things pertaining to our religion" is insignificant in comparison. That is because the Book or Mormon, as another testament of Jesus Christ, literally documents “the fundamental principles of our religion [which] are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven…” Are you one who believes in the historical view or one going with the more nuanced non-historical view? Edited January 7, 2016 by salgare
rockpond Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 43 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Sadly, Scott, this type of message will ring more and more hollow in people's ears. Pinning it all on others trying to destroy someone's faith is not going to work. People will read and learn. It's going to happen. This is not some conspiracy to destroy. Leaders need to start acknowledging those who are leaving and struggling, not because they got swept away by others. Pretending problems are half-truths because they are problems is silly, dismissive, and counter-productive in the long haul. Fewf! it feels like it'll be years down the road before much of this stuff will get worked out. Very well put.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 9 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: You can keep repeating yourself but that doesn't make it true. I repeat it, because you don't seem to get it. Quote Do you honestly not recognize that people can experience different realities? If the so-called "realities" contradict each other, they cannot both be realities. Quote Is my reality as a middle class, white male American the same as the reality of a black woman from Zaire? Do those different realities effect our world view? Would my understanding of reality be identical to hers? Apples-to-oranges. That is not an example of realities that conflict. Quote Your statement is a text book example of black and white thinking. The church can do better than that. They need to. I don't accept this unsubstantiated criticism.
salgare Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: In other words, he's telling them to make themselves more knowledgable, the opposite of what you unjustly impute to Church leaders above. Pay attention kids ... there will be a test ... Mormon Think
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 Quote Nice way of saying; "That is not important to you salvation". I was getting tired of that. Your dismissive attitude is unwarranted and does not do justice to what Elder Ballard said, which is to not let things of relative insignificance destroy what one has learned by the power of the Holy Ghost. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: Very well put. No it's not. It presupposes that there are not reasonable and valid answers to the bulk of criticisms that are leveled at the faith of the Latter-day Saints. As I mentioned yesterday, what the attacks on the Church that I cannot readily refute I can generally answer with an appeal to sources such as "FairMormon Answers" or the "Gospel Topics" essays. The ease with which they can be responded to is pretty good evidence that the attacks are not all that well thought out.
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