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What is our personal responsibility to find the balance between revelation from our leaders and revelation for ourselves?  

 

Here are my thoughts.  I'd appreciate hearing yours.

 

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I witness far too many people faithful in the church and disenfranchised from the church that excuse themselves from the decision making process, only to turn around and blame those to whom they ceded their privileged of moral agency when things went bad.\

 

This is a trap I seek to avoid when counseling with others as a professional coach or as a brother in the Gospel.  Individuals must be able to take personal responsibility to verify and act upon any counsel given them.  You cannot grow as an agent if you do not exercise your ability to receive personal revelation to confirm or have greater understanding of what it is you are being taught by others, no matter their level of authority.  You will not grow if you do not take personal responsibility for acting upon your knowledge and the consequences that come with doing so.

 

It is disturbing how many times I’ve read or heard some variation on “Brother So-and-so told me to do this, and the resulting consequence is why I no longer believe.”

 

I have struggled to reconcile a few things that my general and local authorities preached.  In a few cases I never did get confirmation that they were correct, but I also didn't get a prompting to publicly correct them, or work against their programs and teachings.

 

"I am not disposed to question the discrepancies on the question of doctrine; if we live faithful all will become clear to us. We cannot become united only as we get united in understanding." - George Albert Smith

 

It is good that we receive personal revelation,

 

“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.” - Brigham Young

 

...and we should strive to reconcile our own revelation and knowledge with the body of the church.

 

D&C 132:8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

 

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom. - Joseph Smith

 

On the other extreme I have seen far too many Saints who receive an idea or revelation for themselves and proceed to declare that everyone should think or act the way they do to be fully faithful.  Do not confuse personal revelation with doctrine for the whole church.  And don't blab every revelation you receive.

 

Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves; be watchful and prayerful, and you shall have a prelude of those joys that God will pour out on that day. Do not watch for iniquity in each other, if you do you will not get an endowment, for God will not bestow it on such. But if we are faithful, and live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God, I will venture to prophesy that we shall get a blessing that will be worth remembering, if we should live as long as John the Revelator; our blessings will be such as we have not realized before, nor received in this generation. The order of the house of God has been, and ever will be, the same, even after Christ comes; and after the termination of the thousand years it will be the same; and we shall finally enter into the celestial Kingdom of God, and enjoy it forever. - Joseph Smith

 

When I receive a revelation or prompting that conflicts with what I hear a church authority say, I must reconcile honestly with myself and determine if it is:

 

1) My ego or selfishness overcoming the truth

2) An incomplete understanding of the truth that will be reconciled later with more information or revelation

3) A revelation I've received that the general authority or local authority has not.

 

If it is #3 then I must decide

 

A) Keep it to myself

B) Act on it if prompted

If it is B then I should

i) Counsel with leadership and share the information I've received

ii) Take other action as guided by the spirit

 

So far in my life as a Latter-day Saint the number of times I've gotten all the way to 3/B/ii are so few as to be almost inconsequential.  Even then it is up to us to weigh the importance of being right in a single instance vs. sustaining authority called of God and insuring the Lord's House is a house of order, and sufficiently ordered to bring others unto Christ.

 

Bringing ourselves and others unto Christ is the goal, and any personal faith based decision or action should be weighed against that measure.

 

---

 

So for you...  What is our personal responsibility to find the balance between revelation from our leaders and revelation for ourselves?

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I believe revelation through the Church leadership is generalized and does not necessarily cater to the needs of the individual. Don't take this negatively. These men aren't sooth Sayers or oracles in the traditional pagan sense.

What I find disconcerting and ominous are those who hold the opinion that if they follow leadership, whether right or wrong, they're ok in the end and that God will meet out justice on the progenitors without thought to those "faithfully" followed counsel.

Edited by Saint Sinner
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I believe revelation through the Church leadership is generalized and does not necessarily cater to the needs of the individual. Don't take this negatively. These men aren't sooth Sayers or oracles in the traditional pagan sense.

What I find disconcerting and ominous are those who hold the opinion that if they follow leadership, whether right or wrong, they're ok in the end and that God will meet out justice on the progenitors without thought to those "faithfully" followed counsel.

 

I do believe if we follow others in good conscience and intent attempt to follow our leaders, while exercising our own responsibility and agency, our errors and theirs will be made will be covered by the charity of others and ultimately Christ's atonement.

 

We should not expect our leaders to be error free, or ourselves.  We get many things right, we miss some, or are delayed in receiving true revelation due to disobedience or false traditions- but then we can repent...

 

We have the multiple protections of Scripture, Prophecy and Individual Revelation...

 

We have the freedom of individual agency balanced with a house of order for protection from anarchy...

 

By getting hung up on a single pet issue or hobby horse, we lose the beauty of the whole vision and go into apostasy with our blinders on.

 

By all accounts Zions March was a temporal disaster, and men declared Joseph a fallen prophet.  Yet others obeyed the call and let the mistakes be on Joseph's head, without rejecting his authority to act as Prophet. 

 

So what was the fate of those who sustained Joseph vs. those who rejected his leadership? 

 

That is the same answer to sustaining mortal, fallible, church leaders in our day. 

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I think that as long as the church considers words of the prophets and apostles (austensibly revelation) as commandments instead of counsel, there will continue to be little room for flexibility in orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

 

So while we may like to claim that people have the responsibilty for deciding for themselves, they really only have one option if they want to remain in good standing with the institutional church.

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I think that as long as the church considers words of the prophets and apostles (austensibly revelation) as commandments instead of counsel, there will continue to be little room for flexibility in orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

 

So while we may like to claim that people have the responsibilty for deciding for themselves, they really only have one option if they want to remain in good standing with the institutional church.

 

The last time an Apostle, Stake President, or Bishop told me in detail how to apply personal revelation to my actions under threat of excommunication was...  never.  And my ideas are not always orthodox.  Granted I have not lobbied to ordain women to the priesthood, or perform sealings for homosexual couples.

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To me, it honestly depends on the person or leader. Some leaders are micromanagers and are way too involved in people's lives. My second YSA Bishop was like that. He guilt tripped people into doing stuff and it just backfired again and again-marriages, missions, school etc. His legacy is unbelievable. But when you're 18 or fresh off of a mission you're vulnerable, saying no to a Bishop just isn't in the mindset, "maybe God told him to tell me this" I recall getting a priesthood blessing once and in it a phrase said "you were meant to do this' well, now you have to do it and go through with it otherwise...what happens then? I definately believe we need revelation when someone tells us about how to live and we need to "study it out" and get confirmation independant of any leader

Edited by Duncan
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To HappyJackWagon and Duncan's point:  Unrighteous dominion is a problem, especially with young or inexperienced members, or those with less power.  

 

I am adamant about teaching my children and others in my care to exercise their agency.  One of my 8 year old children didn't get baptized until they were older because they did not receive independent confirmation that they should do it.

 

There is no doubt that personal vs. general revelation is a delicate and difficult journey.  But I think we cheat ourselves and others if we adhere to a strict top down, no questions asked, type of leadership and follower-ship in the church.  In fact you can see the damage that kind of unrighteous dominion has done to testimonies and stories of those who post here.

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Revelation intended for the whole church or received by my local leaders for the ward or stake, meant for the entire congregation I follow generally and it has worked well for me so far. There are times however where a personal circumstance not accounted for by such revelation requires me to go on my own personal inspiration as to how it should apply to me. For example the only calling I declined to accept once, was when I was asked to be a scout leader, supposedly a calling determined by revelation received by the Bishop. At the time I was going to school full-time and working full-time at nights with a family to take care of.  I would have been an absent scout leader.

What we hear from the pulpit or are asked to do by our leaders generally is meant for the entire congregation, but sometimes I have to apply a filter to such instruction on things that might not apply to me at the moment depending on my own circumstances at the time it is said. I think that's mostly where personal revelation comes in to play. 

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To HappyJackWagon and Duncan's point:  Unrighteous dominion is a problem, especially with young or inexperienced members, or those with less power.  

 

I am adamant about teaching my children and others in my care to exercise their agency.  One of my 8 year old children didn't get baptized until they were older because they did not receive independent confirmation that they should do it.

 

There is no doubt that personal vs. general revelation is a delicate and difficult journey.  But I think we cheat ourselves and others if we adhere to a strict top down, no questions asked, type of leadership and follower-ship in the church.  In fact you can see the damage that kind of unrighteous dominion has done to testimonies and stories of those who post here.

 

 

I am in accordance with this!

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To HappyJackWagon and Duncan's point:  Unrighteous dominion is a problem, especially with young or inexperienced members, or those with less power.  

 

I am adamant about teaching my children and others in my care to exercise their agency.  One of my 8 year old children didn't get baptized until they were older because they did not receive independent confirmation that they should do it.

 

There is no doubt that personal vs. general revelation is a delicate and difficult journey.  But I think we cheat ourselves and others if we adhere to a strict top down, no questions asked, type of leadership and follower-ship in the church.  In fact you can see the damage that kind of unrighteous dominion has done to testimonies and stories of those who post here.

This is a great example. Teaching a child to do something for the right reason and not simply because it is expected is a lesson many of us still need to learn.

 

We often hear counsel like "bear your testimony so you can receive it" or "you must live the law so you can gain a testimony of it". This can either be viewed as taking a step into the darkness with faith before receiving the payoff, or it could be viewed as a manipulation. It depends on the person's motives.

 

What if your child didn't get confirmation but you said something like "you should be baptized anyway and then you'll receive your confirmation." It's realistic to think that kind of advice occurs and thus places greater social pressure on the person. The same can be said of sustaining a leader through obedience, whether it be about marriage, which school to attend, whether or not to take a promotion etc. But the idea that we must do (experiment on the word of our leaders) can be problematic because the damage could already be done before we realize they are wrong. And even if they are wrong, we can't blame them. The decisions are ours. We just don't always realize it.

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 It depends on the person's motives.

 

Ding Ding Ding!  We have a winner...

 

In a parenting relationship, or any other authority/follower relationship it is imperative that we build trust through our actions.  Then when guidance must be given both parties can be assured that they will do their best for each other.  There are times when a trail of our faith is necessary, but it is still better to give guidance and allow others to exercise agency, than to manipulate.

 

The older I get the more I think portions of the Gospel are like a Rorschach test.  Which verses we adhere to, and how er interpret them, say much about our character.

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To HappyJackWagon and Duncan's point:  Unrighteous dominion is a problem, especially with young or inexperienced members, or those with less power.  

 

I am adamant about teaching my children and others in my care to exercise their agency.  One of my 8 year old children didn't get baptized until they were older because they did not receive independent confirmation that they should do it.

 

There is no doubt that personal vs. general revelation is a delicate and difficult journey.  But I think we cheat ourselves and others if we adhere to a strict top down, no questions asked, type of leadership and follower-ship in the church.  In fact you can see the damage that kind of unrighteous dominion has done to testimonies and stories of those who post here.

 

That's some 8 year old. Not sure an 8 year old baptism is the best example. I remember when I was 8. I had no idea what independent confirmation meant. I couldn't have made any kind of informed decision on my own nor one that was confirmd by personal revelation. I did it because it was part of growing up in the church and because it was what my parents felt was important to me; like taking me to the doctor when I was sick or making me go to school.

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That's some 8 year old. 

 

Yes he was.   I suspect some of my children were more inspired by my expectations than the Holy Ghost.  But not this boy.  I have learned through the years to trust his judgement.  If he says he is inspired I trust that.  If I ask him if he's just being stubborn he will admit that too.  (Not that it stops him from being stubborn).   :rofl:

 

Each of my children were taught to listen for the promptings of the Holy Ghost from a young age.  They all learned at different paces and times.  Leaving your parents light and finding your own is a long and sometimes circuitous process...  Being patient while my children exercise their agency is one of the hardest things I have ever done in life.  But it must be done for them to stand on their own as spiritually mature adults.

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So for you...  What is our personal responsibility to find the balance between revelation from our leaders and revelation for ourselves?

 

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

 

The question you pose was a key question in my own faith transition/re-building.  But it also leads to the question of when are our leaders speaking revelation vs their own thoughts?

 

What it came down to for me is that I have to seek personal revelation (or guidance from the Spirit) to reject/approve my own thoughts as well as the teachings/counsel coming from the Brethren since I have no other way of determining when they speak by revelation.

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That's some 8 year old. Not sure an 8 year old baptism is the best example. I remember when I was 8. I had no idea what independent confirmation meant. I couldn't have made any kind of informed decision on my own nor one that was confirmd by personal revelation. I did it because it was part of growing up in the church and because it was what my parents felt was important to me; like taking me to the doctor when I was sick or making me go to school.

If the 8 year old is incapable of deciding not to be baptized because he doesn't receive confirmation why would we think he is capable of receiving confirmation to be baptized? We either trust them to decide or we don't.

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Thanks for your thoughts on this.

 

The question you pose was a key question in my own faith transition/re-building.  But it also leads to the question of when are our leaders speaking revelation vs their own thoughts?

 

When they use the phrases such as "I think" or "I suppose", then it is their opinion. Otherwise they believe

what they are teaching (in General Conference talks or manuals printed by the church) should be accepted

as the truth. IMO, false teaching can be traced back to the devil.  It all started in the Garden of Eden when

he made Eve doubt the word of God.

 

Thanks,

Jim

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What is our personal responsibility to find the balance between revelation from our leaders and revelation for ourselves?  

 

Here are my thoughts.  I'd appreciate hearing yours.

 

---

 

I witness far too many people faithful in the church and disenfranchised from the church that excuse themselves from the decision making process, only to turn around and blame those to whom they ceded their privileged of moral agency when things went bad.\

 

This is a trap I seek to avoid when counseling with others as a professional coach or as a brother in the Gospel.  Individuals must be able to take personal responsibility to verify and act upon any counsel given them.  You cannot grow as an agent if you do not exercise your ability to receive personal revelation to confirm or have greater understanding of what it is you are being taught by others, no matter their level of authority.  You will not grow if you do not take personal responsibility for acting upon your knowledge and the consequences that come with doing so.

 

It is disturbing how many times I’ve read or heard some variation on “Brother So-and-so told me to do this, and the resulting consequence is why I no longer believe.”

 

I have struggled to reconcile a few things that my general and local authorities preached.  In a few cases I never did get confirmation that they were correct, but I also didn't get a prompting to publicly correct them, or work against their programs and teachings.

 

"I am not disposed to question the discrepancies on the question of doctrine; if we live faithful all will become clear to us. We cannot become united only as we get united in understanding." - George Albert Smith

 

It is good that we receive personal revelation,

 

“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.” - Brigham Young

 

...and we should strive to reconcile our own revelation and knowledge with the body of the church.

 

D&C 132:8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

 

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom. - Joseph Smith

 

On the other extreme I have seen far too many Saints who receive an idea or revelation for themselves and proceed to declare that everyone should think or act the way they do to be fully faithful.  Do not confuse personal revelation with doctrine for the whole church.  And don't blab every revelation you receive.

 

Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves; be watchful and prayerful, and you shall have a prelude of those joys that God will pour out on that day. Do not watch for iniquity in each other, if you do you will not get an endowment, for God will not bestow it on such. But if we are faithful, and live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God, I will venture to prophesy that we shall get a blessing that will be worth remembering, if we should live as long as John the Revelator; our blessings will be such as we have not realized before, nor received in this generation. The order of the house of God has been, and ever will be, the same, even after Christ comes; and after the termination of the thousand years it will be the same; and we shall finally enter into the celestial Kingdom of God, and enjoy it forever. - Joseph Smith

 

When I receive a revelation or prompting that conflicts with what I hear a church authority say, I must reconcile honestly with myself and determine if it is:

 

1) My ego or selfishness overcoming the truth

2) An incomplete understanding of the truth that will be reconciled later with more information or revelation

3) A revelation I've received that the general authority or local authority has not.

 

If it is #3 then I must decide

 

A) Keep it to myself

B) Act on it if prompted

If it is B then I should

i) Counsel with leadership and share the information I've received

ii) Take other action as guided by the spirit

 

So far in my life as a Latter-day Saint the number of times I've gotten all the way to 3/B/ii are so few as to be almost inconsequential.  Even then it is up to us to weigh the importance of being right in a single instance vs. sustaining authority called of God and insuring the Lord's House is a house of order, and sufficiently ordered to bring others unto Christ.

 

Bringing ourselves and others unto Christ is the goal, and any personal faith based decision or action should be weighed against that measure.

 

---

 

So for you...  What is our personal responsibility to find the balance between revelation from our leaders and revelation for ourselves?

For me it's easy easy easy.

 

How can you know the leaders are right or wrong in the first place unless you put personal revelation first?

 

How can you even know "the church is true" if you do not put personal revelation first?

 

For me, no contest.  I can't imagine it even any other way.

 

I remember my mom: " If someone told you to jump off a bridge....."   ;)

 

If someone told you to join a church....

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When they use the phrases such as "I think" or "I suppose", then it is their opinion. Otherwise they believe

what they are teaching (in General Conference talks or manuals printed by the church) should be accepted

as the truth. IMO, false teaching can be traced back to the devil.  It all started in the Garden of Eden when

he made Eve doubt the word of God.

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

Of course they believe that what they are teaching is truth.  Otherwise, why would they teach it?

 

But what "they believe" and what is revelation could be different.

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If the 8 year old is incapable of deciding not to be baptized because he doesn't receive confirmation why would we think he is capable of receiving confirmation to be baptized? We either trust them to decide or we don't.

All my life before I was 8 I was taught it was the right thing to do; therefore when I turned 8 I agreed to be baptised because I trusted my parents and those who taught me. I agree an 8 year old can decide to not be baptised, but are they really receiveing confirmation from God that that is the right decision?

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What is our personal responsibility to find the balance between revelation from our leaders and revelation for ourselves?  

 

***

 

So for you...  What is our personal responsibility to find the balance between revelation from our leaders and revelation for ourselves?

I'm not sure a balance is the ideal, or the intended goal. I think our personal responsibility is to recognize the source of revelation and act accordingly. This is more than thoughts (pure intelligence1), but feelings (charity—perfection in Christ2) as well. That recognition is a revelation, and it is always personal.

 

1. “When you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 151.)

 

2. “And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace.” (D&C 88:125).

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Yes he was.   I suspect some of my children were more inspired by my expectations than the Holy Ghost.  But not this boy.  I have learned through the years to trust his judgement.  If he says he is inspired I trust that.  If I ask him if he's just being stubborn he will admit that too.  (Not that it stops him from being stubborn).   :rofl:

 

Each of my children were taught to listen for the promptings of the Holy Ghost from a young age.  They all learned at different paces and times.  Leaving your parents light and finding your own is a long and sometimes circuitous process...  Being patient while my children exercise their agency is one of the hardest things I have ever done in life.  But it must be done for them to stand on their own as spiritually mature adults.

It's just as difficult to learn it as an adult. But just as important.

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I do believe if we follow others in good conscience and intent attempt to follow our leaders, while exercising our own responsibility and agency, our errors and theirs will be made will be covered by the charity of others and ultimately Christ's atonement.

We should not expect our leaders to be error free, or ourselves. We get many things right, we miss some, or are delayed in receiving true revelation due to disobedience or false traditions- but then we can repent...

We have the multiple protections of Scripture, Prophecy and Individual Revelation...

We have the freedom of individual agency balanced with a house of order for protection from anarchy...

By getting hung up on a single pet issue or hobby horse, we lose the beauty of the whole vision and go into apostasy with our blinders on.

By all accounts Zions March was a temporal disaster, and men declared Joseph a fallen prophet. Yet others obeyed the call and let the mistakes be on Joseph's head, without rejecting his authority to act as Prophet.

So what was the fate of those who sustained Joseph vs. those who rejected his leadership?

That is the same answer to sustaining mortal, fallible, church leaders in our day.

I get what you're saying. However, it would be irresponsible to 1) follow leadership counsel if no confirmation from the Spirit comes or 2) follow leadership if the Spirit confirms against leadership counsel. Both can and do happen. This is why, as Valentinus has said, it is important to not only be a people with a prophet (which is only half the equation) but to be a prophetic people (the fulfillment of the equation). Edited by Saint Sinner
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Thanks for your thoughts everyone.  I got busy after my last post...

 

I have learned more and more about the wisdom of counsels in this church.  There are times when my wife and I disagree over an important course of action.  When we do find ourselves at an impasse the best way to solve it is for both of us to ponder, discuss and pray.  Often we have found that it was not one of us being right and the other wrong, but both of us needing additional information and consideration to become aligned with a greater truth.

 

When I speak of balance between general and personal revelation this is always on my mind.  That the TRUTH is out there, and none of us individually can hope to reach more of it without each other.  The difference in the relationship with God between a general authority and an individual is not necessarily the clarity or power of the revelation we receive, but the scope of the revelations we are responsible for.

 

There are times when I have to faithfully follow an authority or my spouse, and trust in their knowledge even when I do not have my own.  I really despise the "fake it till you make it" attitude, but that does not mean we can wait to be obedient to principle and leadership, and still hope to gain a testimony.  It is after the trial of out faith that we receive the witness.  

 

Do what is right let the consequence follow, and follow the Prophet are good principles.  But we still have the right to know for ourselves, and the responsibility to counsel with others we follow and lead.  Ultimately the goal is to come unto Christ and be a follower of Him.  We work with each other, imperfectly, to gradually approach this end state. 

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