What did the LDS Jesus die for, exactly?

[dberrie2000]

On 2/19/2017 at 6:00 PM, halconero said:

There are multiple scriptures dictating that children need the Atonement.

 Hi Hal:

Considering the Atonement brought forth the resurrection of all men, as a free gift--and little children need the resurrection also--then that must be a true statement, IE--that children also need the Atonement.

The Atonement released mankind from the automatic condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall. As the Articles of Faith testifies to--we now answer for our own sins--and not Adam's transgression--because of the Atonement.

Children are not held accountable for their actions until a point--but that still points to the Atonement, IMO.

The Atonement did not forgive anyone of their sins either, in and by itself-- but it did offer an opportunity to have our sins forgiven--through obedience to the Redeemer.

For me--the Atonement offered two primary graces, as a free gift to all men:

1) The Resurrection--to conquer physical death.(free gift to all men)

2) The Redeemer and the gospel of grace(unconditional free gift to all men, as an opportunity)--as a means whereby men may deal with personal sin.

Both of those graces were necessary in order to obtain unto eternal life--as a personal reception.(And I address it as such because there is a difference between the opportunity to inherit life,as a free gift--and the actual personal reception of eternal life, which is conditional)

[rodheadlee]

On 2/12/2017 at 5:55 PM, Five Solas said:

Another thread took an interesting twist on the oft-debated subject of “free agency.”  Rather than risk thread derailment, I thought the topic merited its own.  So here we go--

The quote (I’m sure Kenngo1969 won’t mind) was intended to refute the free part of free agency. He wrote: It's not "free": the Best Blood That Ever Lived was spilled for it.

For it.  It being agency.  Jesus spilled his blood & died for agency, what LDS (back when I was a kid) used to call "free agency." 

I never heard this before and I admitted as much.  Another poster jumped in and provided a number of passages from Joseph Smith’s Book of Abraham and Book of Moses to make the case that the LDS Jesus certainly did die for agency.  He finished his post by excoriating me for what he takes to be my willful ignorance.  Apparently every good LDS already knows this.  You can find it here.  

But is this really commonly understood by LDS - that their Jesus died for agency?  What do you think?  Did he die for something else?  Or for a bunch of things?  To tell the truth, it always seemed a little fuzzy, back when I was LDS. 

--Erik

He died to conquer death.  To show that He was given the power to take up His life again as well as our lives.

[Kenngo1969]

Erik:

I'm waiting with 'bated breath for you to crow about how I must be wrong, wrong, wrong, since none of my fellow Latter-day Saints agree with me.   However, the Atonement of Jesus Christ and its effects are so vast, so all-encompassing, and so incomprehensible to the human mind that, as the various responses to this thread indicate, when it comes to the Atonement, all of us, pretty much, as Pogi already has so astutely pointed out, are like the blind men and the elephant: One of them thought that an elephant is wide and stout, like an elephant's leg; another thought that an elephant is long and flexible, like an elephant's trunk; and so on.

P.S.: And of course, the foregoing assumes that everyone who has opined here has voted in your poll.  That may or may not be true. I simply think that, since most all of us accept the completely uncontroversial, long-held position that Christ died for our sins, then, by definition, that means he died for our agency, as well.  The prospect that we might sin presupposes that we have agency. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[dberrie2000]

37 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I simply think that, since most all of us accept the completely uncontroversial, long-held position that Christ died for our sins, then, by definition, that means he died for our agency, as well.  

Hi Kenngo:

While I would agree that the Atonement gives an effective nod to our agency--was it not the Fall where we obtained the agency to realize right and wrong--and apply our agency in choice?

Of course--unless we could be delivered from the condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall--and the opportunity to be delivered from personal sin, which the Atonement provided--it seems to me our agency would not have been effective to bring eternal life, as a personal reception.

[halconero]

4 hours ago, dberrie2000 said:

 Hi Hal:

Considering the Atonement brought forth the resurrection of all men, as a free gift--and little children need the resurrection also--then that must be a true statement, IE--that children also need the Atonement.

The Atonement released mankind from the automatic condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall. As the Articles of Faith testifies to--we now answer for our own sins--and not Adam's transgression--because of the Atonement.

Children are not held accountable for their actions until a point--but that still points to the Atonement, IMO.

The Atonement did not forgive anyone of their sins either, in and by itself-- but it did offer an opportunity to have our sins forgiven--through obedience to the Redeemer.

For me--the Atonement offered two primary graces, as a free gift to all men:

1) The Resurrection--to conquer physical death.(free gift to all men)

2) The Redeemer and the gospel of grace(unconditional free gift to all men, as an opportunity)--as a means whereby men may deal with personal sin.

Both of those graces were necessary in order to obtain unto eternal life--as a personal reception.(And I address it as such because there is a difference between the opportunity to inherit life,as a free gift--and the actual personal reception of eternal life, which is conditional)

Yes, I agree with all of this.

[dberrie2000]

3 hours ago, halconero said:

Yes, I agree with all of this.

Hi Hal:

I figured you would. I do believe there are a lot of misconceptions about the Atonement, and maybe some things we will never know about it in this life.

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, dberrie2000 said:

Hi Kenngo:

While I would agree that the Atonement gives an effective nod to our agency--was it not the Fall where we obtained the agency to realize right and wrong--and apply our agency in choice?

Of course--unless we could be delivered from the condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall--and the opportunity to be delivered from personal sin, which the Atonement provided--it seems to me our agency would not have been effective to bring eternal life, as a personal reception.

Yes, I know, I'm a heretic!   We all have to have someone we can look down our noses at, though, if we're not going to apply the counsel in Luke 18:13.  

[dberrie2000]

On 2/13/2017 at 0:10 AM, JLHPROF said:

I chose both on the survey.
He died as payment for our sins.
He died to RESTORE agency that we lost because of our sins.
If we were to die in our sins we could never return to be with God, never be resurrected, and as fallen beings we could not choose any future for ourselves as our bodies would remain in the grave.

His death for our sins and the principle of agency are inseparably intertwined.   I think the issue here could be that we are looking at the wrong side of agency. 
It was not our agency to choose good from evil that Christ's death gave us.
Adam and Eve's "death" gave us that agency.
Christ's death restored the agency to make choices for our future where our sins would have made any choices we make ineffectual. 
We could never be 100% perfect.  Adam's death gave us agency to choose good from evil, but Christ's death gave us agency to life or death, progress or stagnation.

Hi PROF:

Without the Atonement--it would not matter how we used our agency, we would have been forever lost--that, I do find. But our agency was given in the Fall--and I don't find mankind ever losing that agency to choose between good and evil:

Genesis 3:22---King James Version (KJV)

²² And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Where do we find any scripture which states we lost that power to distinguish between good and evil--or the power to make a choice between the two?

The promises were made to Abraham--and he fulfilled the covenant to inherit eternal life--before the Atonement occurred:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

⁴ And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

⁵ Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 Abraham had to await the day of the Atonement, as did all the dead--in order that man might inherit eternal life--but he used his agency to qualify for that promise, as one faithful to the covenant.  All those who died before Christ are still judged in accordance with what they did with their agency--and Paul stated even those who had not heard of the gospel will still be judged according to what they did know--and the choices they made accordingly.

I don't find where it states the Atonement restored our agency, as if it were lost.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dberrie2000]

22 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Yes, I know, I'm a heretic!  

I don't believe that. As I see it--I feel the Spirit in your answers. That does not mean our answers are perfect. Mine certainly aren't.

Keep on keeping on--you are doing great!

[Ahab]

Anewer to OP: both reasons offered in the poll and also other reasons, such as to fulfill the will of our Father (who is also our Lord's father), and because he also loved us enough to want to help us that much, and probably some other reasons that I am not thinking of now.

[Kenngo1969]

48 minutes ago, dberrie2000 said:

I don't believe that. As I see it--I feel the Spirit in your answers. That does not mean our answers are perfect. Mine certainly aren't.

Keep on keeping on--you are doing great!

Are you this condescending in real life, too, or just on line?  

I know, I know!  It's probably just me ...  

[Ahab]

26 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Are you this condescending in real life, too, or just on line?  

I know, I know!  It's probably just me ...  

I think he was complimenting you. Or at least trying to.

But yeah I know it does seem sometimes that when someone openly compliments me they are putting themselves in a position that makes it seem as if they are in a higher position than I am or at least equal to me and are therefore worthy to compliment me or something about me.

As if it takes being humble and feeling unworthy to accept a compliment from someone.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, dberrie2000 said:

Hi PROF:

Without the Atonement--it would not matter how we used our agency, we would have been forever lost--that, I do find. But our agency was given in the Fall--and I don't find mankind ever losing that agency to choose between good and evil:

Genesis 3:22---King James Version (KJV)

²² And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Where do we find any scripture which states we lost that power to distinguish between good and evil--or the power to make a choice between the two?

The promises were made to Abraham--and he fulfilled the covenant to inherit eternal life--before the Atonement occurred:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

⁴ And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

⁵ Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 Abraham had to await the day of the Atonement, as did all the dead--in order that man might inherit eternal life--but he used his agency to qualify for that promise, as one faithful to the covenant.  All those who died before Christ are still judged in accordance with what they did with their agency--and Paul stated even those who had not heard of the gospel will still be judged according to what they did know--and the choices they made accordingly.

I don't find where it states the Atonement restored our agency, as if it were lost.

Agency to choose good and evil is only one area of choice.  It is only one part of "agency".
Agency to progress is another.  Agency to become like God is another.  Christ's atonement gave our choices/actions an effect.  Without an effect any agency is an illusion.
It would have made no difference in the end.

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, dberrie2000 said:

 

I don't find where it states the Atonement restored our agency, as if it were lost.

 

Without the atonement, we never would have had any agency to begin with, or at least, any agency we did have would be moot, as the scripture from the Book of Mormon I quoted earlier makes clear.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[dberrie2000]

16 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Are you this condescending in real life, too, or just on line?  

I know, I know!  It's probably just me ...  

Actually--I grew up with a step father who was an Army Major--and we talked with our fists more than we condescended.

I just now believe people give you their best shots, for the main--and I happen to like your posts. There is just kinda this humility about your posts which I wish I had more of.

[dberrie2000]

12 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Without the atonement, we never would have had any agency to begin with, or at least, any agency we did have would be moot, as the scripture from the Book of Mormon I quoted earlier makes clear.

I believe the agency was given through the Fall:

Genesis 3:22---King James Version (KJV)

²² And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I don't find where man ever lost the choice or the knowledge between good and evil.

I do agree with you--those choices would have come to naught, as far as eternal life goes--without the Atonement. Where would anyone find, scripturally--- the Atonement restored the knowledge or the choice between good and evil?

[Five Solas]

On 2/21/2017 at 8:32 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

Erik:

I'm waiting with 'bated breath for you to crow about how I must be wrong, wrong, wrong, since none of my fellow Latter-day Saints agree with me.

...

You'll wait a long time, Kenngo.  Because, 1) that really ain't my style or motive.  And, 2) the standard for being right implicit in the above is, well--let's just say we've yet to arrive.

;0)

But I do appreciate you contributing an interesting topic for discussion.  I've enjoyed reading the various replies.  And the spillover topics of whether children <8 can or cannot sin and whether the atonement (according to Mormonism) covers another kind of sin apart from "personal sin"--these are worth further discussion for sure, perhaps on a thread of their own. 

--Erik

PS.  For what it's worth, I've been wrong and had to own it.  Makes you stronger, actually. 

:0)

[bluebell]

On 2/22/2017 at 8:53 AM, dberrie2000 said:

I believe the agency was given through the Fall:

Genesis 3:22---King James Version (KJV)

²² And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I don't find where man ever lost the choice or the knowledge between good and evil.

I do agree with you--those choices would have come to naught, as far as eternal life goes--without the Atonement. Where would anyone find, scripturally--- the Atonement restored the knowledge or the choice between good and evil?

It seems like it depends on how we look at it.  

Agency was given in the premarital existence-

Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; 16 And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,

So God gave us agency before the earth was even created.  Once Adam and Eve showed up, it seems that God had to remind them of that agency and their power to choose before the Fall even took place-

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 

And then like you said, the Fall increased our agency in some ways because it gave us knowledge we didn't possess before, and agency without knowledge is worthless.

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

And like you and Kenngo said, without the Atonement, the Fall made knowledge and agency moot.  Especially for those of us who came after Adam and Eve, our knowledge and agency would have been worthless because the Fall, without the Atonement, removed our ability to act for ourselves and instead we would have spent our whole existence being acted upon.

Agency and the Atonement are definitely connected.

(The first two scriptures that I quoted are in Moses, so i realize they won't mean anything to non-LDS posters).

[dberrie2000]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

It seems like it depends on how we look at it.  

Agency was given in the premarital existence-

Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; 16 And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,

So God gave us agency before the earth was even created.  Once Adam and Eve showed up, it seems that God had to remind them of that agency and their power to choose before the Fall even took place-

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 

And then like you said, the Fall increased our agency in some ways because it gave us knowledge we didn't possess before, and agency without knowledge is worthless.

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

And like you and Kenngo said, without the Atonement, the Fall made knowledge and agency moot.  Especially for those of us who came after Adam and Eve, our knowledge and agency would have been worthless because the Fall, without the Atonement, removed our ability to act for ourselves and instead we would have spent our whole existence being acted upon.

Agency and the Atonement are definitely connected.

(The first two scriptures that I quoted are in Moses, so i realize they won't mean anything to non-LDS posters).

 

Hi Bluebell:

I'm LDS, so the selections from the book of Moses would be meaningful to me.

I would not disagree with your post above, for the main, and believe it is good insight. I believe my reference was specific to the Garden--where man obtained the knowledge of good and evil--and the ability to distinguish between the two. I don't see anything in the scriptures where that was taken away from mankind--nor restored in the Atonement.

I do find, however, in the testimony of the scriptures--where our choices would not have counted unto eternal life--except it be for the Atonement. Interesting subject, indeed. We are indebted to Christ, and I pray my gratitude will increase for His Sacrifice.

 

 

 

 

[Kenngo1969]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

... Agency and the Atonement are definitely connected. ...

Thank you!  

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, dberrie2000 said:

 

Hi Bluebell:

I'm LDS, so the selections from the book of Moses would be meaningful to me.

I would not disagree with your post above, for the main, and believe it is good insight. I believe my reference was specific to the Garden--where man obtained the knowledge of good and evil--and the ability to distinguish between the two. I don't see anything in the scriptures where that was taken away from mankind--nor restored in the Atonement.

I do find, however, in the testimony of the scriptures--where our choices would not have counted unto eternal life--except it be for the Atonement. Interesting subject, indeed. We are indebted to Christ, and I pray my gratitude will increase for His Sacrifice.

 

 

 

 

Without the Atonement, we would have had no ability to choose good so we would have had agency in theory but not in practice.  That's what I'm saying about how the Atonement gives our agency meaning.  Like you said, it's an amazing thing.  

[dberrie2000]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Without the Atonement, we would have had no ability to choose good so we would have had agency in theory but not in practice.

Hi Bluebell:

That statement does not make a lot of sense to me. Are you claiming, for instance--Abraham had no ability to choose good--as Abraham was centuries before the Atonement:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

⁴ And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

⁵ Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How was Abraham able to obey God--if he had "no ability to choose good"?

That's what I'm saying about how the Atonement gives our agency meaning.  

I agree with that statement, as without the Atonement--there would be no eternal life, regardless of agency.

 

[Vance]

Jesus died to fulfill God's work, which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  Agency is an integral part of that plan.  But so is satisfying the demands of justice, thus allowing for the dispensation of mercy. Also resurrection is an integral part.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Vance

[bluebell]

On 2/26/2017 at 10:58 AM, dberrie2000 said:

Hi Bluebell:

That statement does not make a lot of sense to me. Are you claiming, for instance--Abraham had no ability to choose good--as Abraham was centuries before the Atonement:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

⁴ And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

⁵ Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How was Abraham able to obey God--if he had "no ability to choose good"?

 

I agree with that statement, as without the Atonement--there would be no eternal life, regardless of agency.

 

The affects of the Atonement were retroactive, which i don't completely understand how that works but seems to mean that Abraham (and everyone else) lived as if the Atonement had already happened.

Abraham did not live a spiritually dead life, for example, even thought that's the kind of life we would all live without the Atonement.  He seemed able to repent, for another, something that would not be possible if the Atonement had never occurred.  Likewise, adam and eve were granted blessings (such as baptism) that would have been completely meaningless without the Atonement.  

The brother of Jared was told by Christ that he was redeemed from the Fall two millennia before Christ was even born and the Atonement complete.  (Ether 3:13)

King Benjamin said that for those who came before the Atonement had the same access to the same blessings that come only because of the Atonement.  (Mosiah 3:18)

This is how Elder Tad Callister explains it-

"But how could that be? How could God retroactively extend the blessings of the Atonement before the purchase price was paid? Would this not violate the principles of justice? What if the Savior chose not to proceed? What if no blood were ever shed?

The principle of retroactive credit should not seem foreign to us today. In fact, it is an everyday occurrence. On a daily basis we buy merchandise with our credit cards and then pay for it after the fruits have been enjoyed. As we prove dependable and timely in making our payments the amount of our credit increases. Once we have proven creditworthy, companies will even solicit our credit with fervor. They know certain people can always be counted on to pay the bill.

How much more so it was with the Savior. Over long eons of time in the premortal realm he proved faithful and dependable and honorable in every commitment, every responsibility, and every charge. The scriptures tell us that “from eternity to eternity he is the same” (D&C 76:4). He never deviated from the mark, never slacked in his performance, never shrank from his word. He kept every command with exactness; he discharged every duty with precision; he was “not slack concerning his promise” (2 Peter 3:9). His promises were “immutable and unchangeable” (D&C 104:2). As a result, his spiritual credit was rapidly escalating until it was pure gold, even infinite in value. That is why the laws of justice could recognize the benefits of the Atonement before the purchase price was ever paid, because his promise, his pledge, his credit was “good for it,” and everyone who honored their first estate knew it."

So the fact that Abraham (and others) lived before the Atonement does not mean that agency and the Atonement can't be connected.