Advocate with the Father

JLHPROF · January 23, 2017

18 minutes ago, waveslider said:

While it is true that, "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth."(D&C 93:36), it is also written:

"For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."
Moses 1:39

And how is that accomplished?

According to Joseph Smith a man is saved no faster than he gains intelligence.
It's all about learning.
Even when we enter the Celestial Kingdom.

D&C 130:7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

Everything is about learning and knowledge. There is no limit to what can be learned, even if you learn EVERYTHING within your current sphere there are higher spheres.

1. If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?
2. Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Methinks the Spirit whispers,

"No man has found 'pure space,'

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place."
3. The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.
4. There is no end to virtue;

There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom;

There is no end to light.

There is no end to union;

There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood;

There is no end to truth.
5. There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

CV75 · January 23, 2017

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And how is that accomplished?

According to Joseph Smith a man is saved no faster than he gains intelligence.
It's all about learning.
Even when we enter the Celestial Kingdom.

D&C 130:7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

Everything is about learning and knowledge. There is no limit to what can be learned, even if you learn EVERYTHING within your current sphere there are higher spheres.

1. If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Methinks the Spirit whispers,

"No man has found 'pure space,'

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;

There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom;

There is no end to light.

There is no end to union;

There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood;

There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

Intelligence (wisdom*) is also the divine application of acquired intelligence (knowledge, light and truth, spirit and spirits, co-eternal beings and inhabitants-to-be). This is accomplished by doing what Heavenly Father did (Abraham 3:21-26), over and over (Moses 1:33-38), and which work and glory apparently never get old (Moses 1:39). No more than the birth of children, grandchildren, and so on never gets old (for me, anyway).

*Moses 1:31 refers to the “whys and the hows” of planets and the inhabitants thereof.

waveslider · January 23, 2017

48 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And how is that accomplished?

According to Joseph Smith a man is saved no faster than he gains intelligence.
It's all about learning.
Even when we enter the Celestial Kingdom.

D&C 130:7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

Everything is about learning and knowledge. There is no limit to what can be learned, even if you learn EVERYTHING within your current sphere there are higher spheres.

1. If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Methinks the Spirit whispers,

"No man has found 'pure space,'

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;

There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom;

There is no end to light.

There is no end to union;

There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood;

There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

As I said earlier. I don't know at what time (especially in a Celestial realm where the construct of time is different because it is eternal, not temporal) we can also gain omniscience if we obtain full exaltation. I know we were already there in the Celestial Kingdom before coming here to Earth, and didn't have omniscience, so it is no surprise that there still remains a learning curve once back in the Celestial Kingdom. I highly doubt we will also be creating new worlds while still learning about the lesser kingdoms through the sea of glass either. Yet we do know that it is part of the destiny of those exalted to the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom, if I correctly remember the promises made at the time of my washing and anointing, in the temple.

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Fair enough. I don't measure progress by amount of possessions. And neither does God according to scripture. His glory is intelligence. The only way to increase in glory is to learn more.

Since when is intelligence not a possession anyway?

HappyJackWagon · January 23, 2017

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 1:24 PM, CV75 said:

Of course there is, by the simple fact that oneness, like harmony, is not identicality.

For example, musical harmony is the combination of different, simultaneously-sounded musical notes to produce chords and chord progressions having a pleasing effect of one piece. Likewise, the Father and the Son combine different, simultaneously-operating roles to produce atonement, advocacy and judgement having a pleasing effect of one work and glory.

Beautiful description. Thanks.

ETA- There have been a number of wonderful comments on this thread. Thanks for sharing thoughts, everyone!

Edited January 23, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

CV75 · January 23, 2017

12 hours ago, waveslider said:

As I said earlier. I don't know at what time (especially in a Celestial realm where the construct of time is different because it is eternal, not temporal) we can also gain omniscience if we obtain full exaltation. I know we were already there in the Celestial Kingdom before coming here to Earth, and didn't have omniscience, so it is no surprise that there still remains a learning curve once back in the Celestial Kingdom. I highly doubt we will also be creating new worlds while still learning about the lesser kingdoms through the sea of glass either. Yet we do know that it is part of the destiny of those exalted to the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom, if I correctly remember the promises made at the time of my washing and anointing, in the temple.

Since when is intelligence not a possession anyway?

Also, in the Kolob hymn, "learning" and "knowledge" are not any of the things listed that have no end... In fact, the first stanza indicates we cannot "find out" some things...

JLHPROF · January 23, 2017

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Also, in the Kolob hymn, "learning" and "knowledge" are not any of the things listed that have no end... In fact, the first stanza indicates we cannot "find out" some things...

There is no end to truth.

waveslider · January 23, 2017

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

There is no end to truth.

Truth doesn't end just because someone has learned truth either.

CV75 · January 23, 2017

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

There is no end to truth.

But if that is synonymous with knowledge, it is inconsistent with what you we explaining, that an exalted being's knowledge can be lost given up, etc.

Edited January 23, 2017 by CV75

JLHPROF · January 23, 2017

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

But if that is synonymous with knowledge, it is inconsistent with what you we explaining, that an exalted being's knowledge can be lost given up, etc.

In the context of the hymn end means limit, not conclusion.
There is no end to truth would mean that there are limitless truths. And in an infinite and eternal existence that would mean an infinite number of truths.

If God or we start with 20 truths, and increase it exponentially for millennia we would still never acquire infinite knowledge. Unless we start with infinite knowledge it is not something that can be gained.

CV75 · January 24, 2017

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

In the context of the hymn end means limit, not conclusion.
There is no end to truth would mean that there are limitless truths. And in an infinite and eternal existence that would mean an infinite number of truths.

If God or we start with 20 truths, and increase it exponentially for millennia we would still never acquire infinite knowledge. Unless we start with infinite knowledge it is not something that can be gained.

The closest thing we have to a scriptural description for infinite, along with eternal, is that they are godly attributes “without end.” They continue. This does not denote quantity but quality, and is used this way throughout latter-day scripture. Likewise, the Lord uses the terms numberless and innumerable when it comes to describing the quantity of His creations and the inhabitants thereof.

The hymn doesn’t refer to a limitless number of truths, but that truth (note it is the singular in the hymn) is without end. Infinite knowledge and infinite truth are not scriptural terms. But describing God as infinite, and His goodness and mercy and atonement (sacrifice), are found in several places. These scriptures are not written in a way so as to be construed to be referring to an infinite number of Gods, “goodnesses”, mercies, "atonements" and sacrifices.

Even in the hymn, “no end” refers to continue in stanza three. There is no beginning and no end because both frames of reference continue and thus cannot be known, and not because there are too many beginnings and endings to count or innumerable creations that abound.

This is why the immortal beings, particularly the exalted Gods, do not give up their infinite character.

Edited January 24, 2017 by CV75

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