Will people who find the gospel hard be judged differently to those who find it easy? And is eye-contact a good measure of worthiness

[canard78]

The same fireside that has rattled cages about "no homosexual members" has a different section from Elder Bednar about the day of judgement. I'm curious in your thoughts on it. It starts at 1:52:50 in this video.

He says:

Quote

 

"Have you ever wondered what the day of judgement will be like? I can answer that for you. You don't have to die to find out.

If living the gospel for you is hard, if it's a chore, "oooh if I was just not a latter-day saint, I could have fun." If that's what you are like when you die, guess where you will go? With other people who feel the same way, because that's the law you have learned to love. If during your life... you have learned to love the gospel, guess where you're going when you die? With people who love the gospel.

The Lord is not going to have to tell you. When you come into His presence, you won't think 'gee I hope he's in a good mood today, I hope he gives me extra points so my grade will be a better.' When you come into his presence, you will go where you know you belong based on what you have desired to do and become on earth.

If you can look your bishop in the eye because you are worthy and clean, you already know what the day of judgement will be like. There's no awkwardness, no embarrassment, no shame. If you can't, you already know what the day of judgement will be like. Many people will come and want to shake my hands. They don't want me to look them in the eyes. Welcome to the day of judgement. You don't have to be dead to know what it is going to be like. So live the gospel joyfully. Living the gospel is not hard. Not living the gospel is hard and it is joyful to live it." 

 

Is this based on anything reasonable? I love the "degree of difficulty" parable of the divers from Stephen Robinson. This quote from Elder Bednar seems to clash with that concept. Plenty of people, often through no fault of their own, will experience life with a harder "degree of difficulty." As such, living Mormonism might be hard, or a chore, every single day for those people. The fact that they do it anyway should be applauded and celebrated.

I remember a convert who was a heavy alcoholic when baptised. She found even the simplest of aspects very, very difficult. She was convinced it was important, but found getting up on a Sunday, keeping basic commandments and participation in the organisation difficult. She also suffered with mental health challenges. Every day as a member was painful for her and she frequently slipped up on WoW commitments, but picked herself up and kept trying.

If there's a heaven, and I hope there is, then I would imagine that she was welcomed into the peaceful arms of the waiting angels at the moment she died, which was only about a year after her baptism through liver failure.

As for telling people that not looking him in the eye is a good indication to him of what it will be like on the day of judgement... I understand the underlying principle that he thinks is worth teaching... but (as with the homosexual members message) he uses clumsy and inconsiderate language to make his point. Mental health issues can often be symptoms of what he describes (finding life hard, wishing your life was different, not being able to make eye contact). To tell people who already feel horrible about themselves that they are not good enough, not worthy enough and are destined to an eternity with other people like that, is really unhelpful and demotivating.

I know that Elder Bednar probably didn't have people with mental health challenges & anxiety in mind when making these statements but his directness and lack of tact has the potential to give the wrong impression to people already finding life difficult.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, canard78 said:

As for telling people that not looking him in the eye is a good indication to him of what it will be like on the day of judgement... I understand the underlying principle that he thinks is worth teaching... but (as with the homosexual members message) he uses clumsy and inconsiderate language to make his point. Mental health issues can often be symptoms of what he describes (finding life hard, wishing your life was different, not being able to make eye contact). To tell people who already feel horrible about themselves that they are not good enough, not worthy enough and are destined to an eternity with other people like that, is really unhelpful and demotivating.

Well, if they already feel horrible about themselves how is this news?

[canard78]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Well, if they already feel horrible about themselves how is this news?

How is what news? That they will receive a lesser reward and be consigned to an eternity with other people like them? That was certainly news to me. I can't remember ever hearing that how easy you find living the gospel will be a part of the judgement process.

[cdowis]

It was very easy for me to gain a testimony, and I am very aware that this makes me more responsible for that testimony.  Actually it can be rather unsettling fro me personally when I see others overcome their doubts with great effort to have a testimony while it was so very simple for me.  

No question that I will be held to a higher degree of responsibility and sometimes it makes me weep.
"Son, what did you do with your testimony?"

[bluebell]

I don't read his comment the same way that you do Canard.  When he says 'is living the gospel a chore' it reads to me like he's talking about people who resent living the gospel, like the same way kids resent doing actual chores, for example.  They complain, they doing a bad job, they frequently say things like "If i didn't have to do this chore i could be outside having fun" (as you can tell, i have experience with this attitude.   ).

That's the attitude that Elder Bednar seems to be talking about.  Those who live the gospel in that way, aren't converted.  They live it the same way that Laman and Lemuel lived it-almost against their will and without any real love for the Savior or desire to follow Him.

I also think that when he says that 'living the gospel is not hard' he is saying it the same way the Savior says it when he says that His yoke (the gospel) is easy.  

[Kevin Christensen]

I've quoted Joseph Smith on the topic of judgment a few times.

"The great designs of God in relation to the salvation of the human family, are very little understood by the professedly wise and intelligent generation in which we live. Various and conflicting are the opinions of men concerning the plan of salvation, the requisitions of the Almighty, the necessary preparations for heaven, the state and condition of departed spirits, and the happiness or misery that is consequent upon the practice of righteousness and iniquity according to their several notions of virtue and vice." 
"But while one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of man, causes "His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, "according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil," or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, "not according to what they have not, but according to what they have," those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will by judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right." (History of the Church 4:595)

It's all very consistent with my readings of NDE accounts.  Notably quite different from the famous South Park cartoon.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

 

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, canard78 said:

The same fireside that has rattled cages about "no homosexual members" has a different section from Elder Bednar about the day of judgement. I'm curious in your thoughts on it. It starts at 1:52:50 in this video.

 

 

I remember a convert who was a heavy alcoholic when baptised. She found even the simplest of aspects very, very difficult. She was convinced it was important, but found getting up on a Sunday, keeping basic commandments and participation in the organisation difficult. She also suffered with mental health challenges. Every day as a member was painful for her and she frequently slipped up on WoW commitments, but picked herself up and kept trying.

If there's a heaven, and I hope there is, then I would imagine that she was welcomed into the peaceful arms of the waiting angels at the moment she died, which was only about a year after her baptism through liver failure.

 

This woman does not fit the type that Elder Bednar was talking about.  She was convinced it was important to try. There is no fun in being a hardcore addict to anything. We look forward to being healed from our infirmities just as much as the person who has no legs or is blind or deaf.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, canard78 said:

How is what news? That they will receive a lesser reward and be consigned to an eternity with other people like them? That was certainly news to me. I can't remember ever hearing that how easy you find living the gospel will be a part of the judgement process.

probably no, but how much you love the gospel figures in.

[VideoGameJunkie]

That's it, I'm challenging Elder Bednar to a staring contest.

[deli_llama]

The comments about how we should live the gospel—with joy and loving the gospel—seems well grounded. As long as we see them as chores and rules, or somewhat more sternly, commandments, they will be a challenge or a burden. When, maybe if, we are able to progress to the point at which they are a way of being, we will have gained something of true value. But, if we pass on before we have moved to this point, I do not feel it will be held against us. Our intent will weigh as heavily as the results. 

I do cringe some at the idea that being able to look your bishop in the eye is a sign of being worthy. He had two audiences, those present, and those who would watch it later, so for part of the audience, mainly North America and Europe, eye contact is an important aspect of our culture. However, Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia all have different perceptions when it comes to eye contact. Each is unique in its own way, and each has regional and cultural variations within itself. 

I have a hard time looking anyone in the eyes, and I have noticed this is even true when meeting with church leaders. I spent too long, over a decade, in a predominantly Asian area, and with many Asian professors during my schooling. Ways of being change. I personally don't feel comfortable with lots of eye contact anymore. It is a habit now, and it is always being reinforced through my current interactions and work, so... I hope my worthiness isn't questioned because I don't speak with lots of eye contact, especially because in actuality I am being polite and respectful in my current habitual manner. 

I very much agree about the points raised concerning mental health issues and eye contact. 

Also, the best liars I know are the ones that do it while looking me in the eyes. One would hope that our leaders will rely more on the spiritual gift of discernment, and less on any cultural norms they expect everyone to live within. I said I cringe because I could easily see this becoming an unwritten order of things. Not only because it seems like the kind of bold ideas we saints love, but let's admit it, it is normal for fallen beings to take shortcuts; like judging through eye contact, rather than doing the hard work required to gain the spiritual gifts we need to fulfill our callings. 

[Kenngo1969]

Depends on one's reasons for finding it difficult to live the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, I suppose.  Some people find it difficult to do so because they would like to maintain both a main residence in Zion and a summer cottage in Babylon, and some people find it difficult because of "opposition in all things," living in a fallen world, being subject (while doing their best to not subject themselves to) the vicissitudes of living in the flesh, and so forth.  I strongly suspect Elder Bednar was speaking of the former rather than of the latter.  Living the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ might seem like more of a chore at some times than at others, for all of us.  But I like something which was attributed to President Ezra Taft Benson that I saw on a Seminary wall once: "The day obedience becomes a quest and not an irritation is the day we gain power."

Edited March 4, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[canard78]

11 hours ago, cdowis said:

It was very easy for me to gain a testimony, and I am very aware that this makes me more responsible for that testimony.  Actually it can be rather unsettling fro me personally when I see others overcome their doubts with great effort to have a testimony while it was so very simple for me.  

No question that I will be held to a higher degree of responsibility and sometimes it makes me weep.
"Son, what did you do with your testimony?"

So why tell a youth fireside group that finding the gospel hard is wrong? It seems like an unhelpful way of framing the reality of the range of life experiences. 

[canard78]

12 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Depends on one's reasons for finding it difficult to live the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, I suppose.  Some people find it difficult to do so because they would like to maintain both a main residence in Zion and a summer cottage in Babylon, and some people find it difficult because of "opposition in all things," living in a fallen world, being subject (while doing their best to not subject themselves to) the vicissitudes of living in the flesh, and so forth.  I strongly suspect Elder Bednar was speaking of the former rather than of the latter.

I strongly suspect you're right. Given he was speaking to a youth audience, wouldn't it have been compassionate to articulate this?

[thesometimesaint]

I was baptized into the Church 45 years ago. I'm still working a being a Christian.

[Boanerges]

I believe in the infinite atonement.

Pres. Uchtdorf:

Quote

I marvel to think that the Son of God would condescend to save us, as imperfect, impure, mistake-prone, and ungrateful as we often are. I have tried to understand the Savior’s Atonement with my finite mind, and the only explanation I can come up with is this: God loves us deeply, perfectly, and everlastingly. I cannot even begin to estimate “the breadth, and length, and depth, and height … [of] the love of Christ.”

and

Quote

Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God.Thinking that we can trade our good works for salvation is like buying a plane ticket and then supposing we own the airline. Or thinking that after paying rent for our home, we now hold title to the entire planet earth.

 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, canard78 said:

I strongly suspect you're right. Given he was speaking to a youth audience, wouldn't it have been compassionate to articulate this?

Honestly, I think sometimes we just have to hear things through the Spirit. I know that isn't a satisfying idea for people who struggle to feel the Spirit. There have just been times when I will think and think and think about how to say something before talking and still have people misunderstand what I am talking about. My hope is always in those cases that the Spirit will convey the meaning that I haven't been able to do. And not always because I have  done poorly with the words, but sometimes the other people are coming into this with very different experiences so the words mean something different to them. 

So I think it is a good thing to discuss talks like this so we can get better understanding, but often when we start talking about what should have been said or not said the whole meaning gets lost.

Personally I think his meaning was similar to the chore idea.

As far as the eyes go I think that goes with intent as well. If you go in with the purpose of deceiving then you are in the process of judging yourself. As you look in the Savior's eyes with deception you know immediately that is what you are doing. 

I too have a difficult time looking other people in the eye. I'm trying to train myself to do it. I find it awkward because when I do it for cultural reason their eyes are closed off to me. However, when I am really listening to them I naturally will look into their eyes/faces because I can feel their heart. Not constantly looking, just from time to time. It's a totally different thing. 

[Kenngo1969]

On 3/4/2016 at 6:25 AM, canard78 said:

I strongly suspect you're right. Given he was speaking to a youth audience, wouldn't it have been compassionate to articulate this?

What Rain said.

[Freedom]

Would a person who finds living the gospel hard, who's natural inclination and passions are to not live the gospel then life in the celestial kingdom would be hell. It would be like forcing a person who hates math to take an eternity of physics classes. 

[The Nehor]

On 3/4/2016 at 7:24 AM, canard78 said:

So why tell a youth fireside group that finding the gospel hard is wrong? It seems like an unhelpful way of framing the reality of the range of life experiences. 

He did not say that finding the gospel hard was wrong. He said that we should live it joyfully and that it is not hard. He is right about that too.

[canard78]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

He did not say that finding the gospel hard was wrong. He said that we should live it joyfully and that it is not hard. He is right about that too.

He did also, however, talk about the day of judgement. He told people that if they found the gospel hard they would be sent to be with people who also found it hard. 

That's not in any scripture I've ever read. I wonder why he chose to associate the "difficulty" of living the gospel with the "ability" to do so.

Until I stepped away from the church, I never found the church teachings difficult to live. I delighted in living it and found it relatively easy. I "fitted" Mormonism. 

When I stopped, it wasn't because I found it too hard, it was because I no longer believed lots of the core teachings to be true. Based on the conclusion that Mormonsim was no different to lots of other religions (the well-meaning, but largely man-made, conclusions of deep-thinking people), I chose to stop living it.

If Mormonism is right, then the choice to stop will be the key issue, not whether I found it easy or difficult when I was living it. 

Do you believe that God will judge Mormons based on whether they lived the gospel or whether they found it easy to live the gospel?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, canard78 said:

He did also, however, talk about the day of judgement. He told people that if they found the gospel hard they would be sent to be with people who also found it hard. 

That's not in any scripture I've ever read. I wonder why he chose to associate the "difficulty" of living the gospel with the "ability" to do so.

Until I stepped away from the church, I never found the church teachings difficult to live. I delighted in living it and found it relatively easy. I "fitted" Mormonism. 

When I stopped, it wasn't because I found it too hard, it was because I no longer believed lots of the core teachings to be true. Based on the conclusion that Mormonsim was no different to lots of other religions (the well-meaning, but largely man-made, conclusions of deep-thinking people), I chose to stop living it.

If Mormonism is right, then the choice to stop will be the key issue, not whether I found it easy or difficult when I was living it. 

Do you believe that God will judge Mormons based on whether they lived the gospel or whether they found it easy to live the gospel?

Both. There are days I find it hard and days I find it easy. As I mature in the gospel the easier days become more plentiful. I expect that by Judgement day (at least a thousand years off) I will love it fully enough to find a reward I will love.

Most saints who find the gospel perpetually hard are not doing it right. They are either trying to balance between the gospel and their sins or are trying to hold on to the memory of their sin in a perverse sense of enjoyment or they missed the whole atonement thing and are just trying to miserably live the commandments (dance without hearing the music). I think Elder Bednar was dead on.

[pogi]

On March 4, 2016 at 6:25 AM, canard78 said:

I strongly suspect you're right. Given he was speaking to a youth audience, wouldn't it have been compassionate to articulate this?

I have been interviewing for new work lately.  Even with all of the preparation that I put into it, I have looked back at every interview and said to myself "boy, I could have said that better", "I could have been more clear on this point" or "I should have expounded more on that".  I suspect that general authorities do the same thing, especially with no prepared script in a question-answer setting. 

I think bluebell is right on.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think I get the point Elder Bednar is trying to make here, but I see Canard's point as well. I still struggle with the the natural man on various aspects of gospel living. Fasting, for one. Stake general priesthood meetings at 7 am for another. 

I would hope this does not doom me. I'm trying, after all. 

[Freedom]

I think the key point in his argument is this statement: " If living the gospel for you is hard, if it's a chore, "oooh if I was just not a latter-day saint, I could have fun." If that's what you are like when you die, guess where you will go? With other people who feel the same way, because that's the law you have learned to love"

I struggle living the gospel but utlimately, I want to live it. I want to be good. I may make mistakes and continue to commit certain sins but I do not wish I was not a member of the church. There is a distinction in his argument between being difficult and being a chore. When something is a chore (at least in the context of his talk), you do not want to do it and you are grateful when it is done; in fact you finish it with the hope that you never have to do it again. I do not find living the gospel a chore, just as I do not find jogging a chore, or helping with a church dinner a chore. It can be difficult, and at times not something I look forward to, but fundamentally I want to do it despite how difficult it may be at times and when I am done I am grateful I did it.

 

I recall participating in my first 5km run. I had run 5km many times before but a race is altogether different. As I approached the finish line, the last 1/2 km was up hill and I just wanted to quite. I pulled a muscle in my angle, I overexerted myself trying to keep up with other runners, and I was out of energy. I persevered and finished the run in 23 minutes which was a full 6 minutes faster than my best time before. It was the best I ever did and I was exhilarated. When I saw what I had accomplished I could not wait to sign up for my next run. Although many mornings I dread having to go for a run, my desire to exercise is greater than my desire to sleep in and I am better off for it. Living the gospel, I can see that I am better off despite how difficult it may be. I do not perceive not living the gospel as having fun. I see it as a short term pleasure with long term negative ramifications. 

 

 

[Storm Rider]

I find that individuals can take offense at anything.  They hate roses because there is thorns; they hate sunny skies because it hurts their eyes, they hate.....because they just want to hate, be disagreeable, find fault, etc.  

Jesus said the following in Matthew:

      28 ¶Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

      29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

      30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Based upon your logic, canard78, Jesus was not very tactful, helpful, compassionate, etc.  Why, well because life is hard and living the commandments is hard, and I don't like the WofW, or any number of things.  The problem is that there is another perspective for those whose hearts are humble.  They understand that if they come to Jesus he is their Master and takes charge of their lives.  They know to rejoice in him and are willing to endure what some call persecution or hard times because of their gratitude of finding him, knowing of his sacrifice and atonement.  

Teaching the gospel for Jesus and his disciples has nothing to do with being concerned about your feelings or anyone else's feelings.  What it is about is letting the Spirit bear witness that Jesus is the Christ; that his church is restored, that there is joy in righteousness and holiness.