Advocate with the Father

[HappyJackWagon]

I'm hoping someone can enlighten me to the purpose of Jesus' role as advocate.

Here's a snippet from a visiting teaching message on this subject.

Quote

Jesus Christ is our Advocate with the Father. The word advocate has Latin roots meaning “one who pleads for another.”1 The Savior pleads for us, using understanding, justice, and mercy. Knowing this can fill us with love and gratitude for His Atonement.

“Listen to [Jesus Christ] who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—

“Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

“Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life” (D&C 45:3–5).

Of Christ as our Advocate, Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said: “It is of great significance to me, that I may at any moment and in any circumstance approach through prayer the throne of grace, that my Heavenly Father will hear my petition, that my Advocate, him who did no sin, whose blood was shed, will plead my cause.”

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/07/the-divine-mission-of-jesus-christ-advocate?lang=eng

I have a couple of questions.

1-  We often hear that Jesus suffered so that he could understand and empathize with our weaknesses and pains so that he could then advocate for us with the Father. Why does Jesus need to advocate our case to God? Is the Father incapable of understanding and empathizing?

2- At what point is Jesus advocating for us? At final judgment? If that is the case it would suppose that God the Father is judging us instead of surrogates. Or is Jesus advocating with the Father so our needs are met during this life? If so, why is God not aware of our needs himself that he requires Christ to inform Him in his advocacy for us? It would seem that if we were seeking advocacy during our mortal lives we might actually pray to Jesus, which we don't. When we pray to God does Jesus also hear those prayers so that he can then advocate?

3- Or is Jesus the judge? "The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son” (John 5:22)." If this is the case, why would Christ advocate on our behalf with the Father if the Father is not judging?

4-"The Son, in turn, will call upon others to assist in the Judgment. The Twelve who were with Him in His ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel (see Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). The twelve Nephite disciples will judge the Nephite and Lamanite people (see 1 Nephi 12:9–10; Mormon 3:18–19)."  If the Twelve apostles are our judges, why would Christ advocate with the Father. Wouldn't the apostles be subservient to Jesus and follow his wishes as he would be the master steward?

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment.p1?lang=eng

 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm hoping someone can enlighten me to the purpose of Jesus' role as advocate.

Here's a snippet from a visiting teaching message on this subject.

I have a couple of questions.

1-  We often hear that Jesus suffered so that he could understand and empathize with our weaknesses and pains so that he could then advocate for us with the Father. Why does Jesus need to advocate our case to God? Is the Father incapable of understanding and empathizing?
Given our belief that the Father was once mortal as well, I don't think that is the explanation.
I think the Father has a role as the grand arbiter of eternal law.  Since we violate the law and Christ paid the price for the violation, he is advocating that the father transfer the penalty from us to him.  I don't think empathy and understanding have much to do with the issue.

2- At what point is Jesus advocating for us? At final judgment? If that is the case it would suppose that God the Father is judging us instead of surrogates. Or is Jesus advocating with the Father so our needs are met during this life? If so, why is God not aware of our needs himself that he requires Christ to inform Him in his advocacy for us? It would seem that if we were seeking advocacy during our mortal lives we might actually pray to Jesus, which we don't. When we pray to God does Jesus also hear those prayers so that he can then advocate?

Judgment is a lifelong process in my opinion.  We continually repent.  Christ continually advocates with the Father to accept that repentance and withhold the immediate application of the affixed penalties.

3- Or is Jesus the judge? "The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son” (John 5:22)." If this is the case, why would Christ advocate on our behalf with the Father if the Father is not judging?
4-"The Son, in turn, will call upon others to assist in the Judgment. The Twelve who were with Him in His ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel (see Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). The twelve Nephite disciples will judge the Nephite and Lamanite people (see 1 Nephi 12:9–10; Mormon 3:18–19)."  If the Twelve apostles are our judges, why would Christ advocate with the Father. Wouldn't the apostles be subservient to Jesus and follow his wishes as he would be the master steward?

It is my understanding, belief, and opinion that judgment is progressive in nature, much like the temple recommend process.
We are judged progressively up the chain of priesthood before the father passes the final judgment.
We will be judged by our priesthood head, by our dispensation head Joseph Smith, by Christ's presiding apostles, by Christ himself, and then finally by the Father.

But I get your question.  It's an interesting one that requires some additional pondering.

Really like this thread topic.  Very interesting.

[Buckeye]

Good questions. My take is that most of your questions can be answered by tossing out the assumption that scriptural statements are meant to pertain to all times and places. It's no problem for me that at certain times Christ is deemed advocate and at other times he is deemed judge. Same with the Father. Just because He has the same level of empathy, it doesn't mean He can't take the role of judge at certain times and leave the advocacy to His Son.

Also, all of these verses are good reminder that lawyers are really good. You may not like some lawyers personally, but you should respect the position and the authority of their office. 

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

1-  We often hear that Jesus suffered so that he could understand and empathize with our weaknesses and pains so that he could then advocate for us with the Father. Why does Jesus need to advocate our case to God? Is the Father incapable of understanding and empathizing?

Of course the Father is capable of understanding and empathizing.  But His role is not that of advocate, rather that role belongs to Christ.  Christ is the advocate because He was the one who was sacrificed.  

A lot of your questions seem to be "Why have an advocate?  Why not have the Father be advocate/jury/judge/witness/etc all in one?"  Remember: Christ and the Father are ONE.  They are entirely unified and on the same page, so this isn't Christ vs the Father.  Rather it is justice vs mercy: the Father is standing in the role of justice arbitrator, and Christ is the role of merciful advocate where justice can be fulfilled (assuming repentance as occurred).  The process of watching arbiter versus advocate is for us- that we may be relieved of our burdens of our own repented sins and know that any unrepented crimes done by others are paid for as well.  We see how mercy and justice are both fulfilled, and we grow.

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

2- At what point is Jesus advocating for us? At final judgment? If that is the case it would suppose that God the Father is judging us instead of surrogates. Or is Jesus advocating with the Father so our needs are met during this life? If so, why is God not aware of our needs himself that he requires Christ to inform Him in his advocacy for us? It would seem that if we were seeking advocacy during our mortal lives we might actually pray to Jesus, which we don't. When we pray to God does Jesus also hear those prayers so that he can then advocate?

The scene most commonly evoked here is the Final Judgement, but it also applies to our continual daily repentance.  For example, when the LOC is broken, Christ helps us through the repentance process and forgives.  Obviously the Final Judgement is the finale.   Yes Christ hears everything we pray to the Father, they are ONE. 

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

3- Or is Jesus the judge? "The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son” (John 5:22)." If this is the case, why would Christ advocate on our behalf with the Father if the Father is not judging?

Addressed in #1.

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

4-"The Son, in turn, will call upon others to assist in the Judgment. The Twelve who were with Him in His ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel (see Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). The twelve Nephite disciples will judge the Nephite and Lamanite people (see 1 Nephi 12:9–10; Mormon 3:18–19)."  If the Twelve apostles are our judges, why would Christ advocate with the Father. Wouldn't the apostles be subservient to Jesus and follow his wishes as he would be the master steward?

Everyone is subservient to Jesus (who is servant of the Father).  All everyone is doing is fulfilling a small delegated piece of the pie as a servant.

 

Bytheway- this was a very thoughtful OP.  Thank you for it, and I shall ponder it more.

 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Given our belief that the Father was once mortal as well, I don't think that is the explanation.
I think the Father has a role as the grand arbiter of eternal law.  Since we violate the law and Christ paid the price for the violation, he is advocating that the father transfer the penalty from us to him.  I don't think empathy and understanding have much to do with the issue.

I think empathy and understanding have very, very much to do with His suffering for the sins of all mankind, or suffering as we would (and hardly comprehend at the moment) if we do not repent (a turn on D&C 19:17-20). That is an infinite level of empathy for and understanding of His fallen brothers and sisters.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think empathy and understanding have very, very much to do with His suffering for the sins of all mankind, or suffering as we would (and hardly comprehend at the moment) if we do not repent (a turn on D&C 19:17-20). That is an infinite level of empathy for and understanding of His fallen brothers and sisters.

You misunderstand.  Of course Christ's empathy has to do with his advocacy.
I doubt whether the Father has empathy or not has anything to do with Christ being our advocate.

[Robert F. Smith]

If Jesus Christ is the Advocate and Defender before the Father (I Jn 2:1), then Saṭan/Diabolos is the “Accuser, Adversary, Opponent" (Job 1:6-12, Ps 109:6, Zech 3:1-2, I Chron 21:1; Wisdom of Solomon 2:24; Lk 10:18, Rev 12:9-10, 20:2; 1QH frags 4:6, 14:3, 1QSb 1:8; Apocryphon of James 4:30,37,39),[1] both in that Law Court on High.  It is a required cosmic ritual and legal function which must take place under the eternal Law of Opposites.

Job 33:23 has Hebrew meliṣ “interpreter, mediator, helper” (in parallel there with “angel, messenger”) translated in the Aramaic targum as paraqlytaʼ, a Greek loanword familiar to us in New Testament parakletos “advocate, intercessor, counselor, comforter, supporter, sponsor; Doppelgänger, alter ego, successor” (only in Johannine texts).[2]

In John 14:16, for example, the "Second Comforter" is the Holy Ghost, who is often called the “Paraclete” in non-Mormon circles.  But what is a paraclete?

The phrase in Greek ('allon parakleton) is translated in various ways:  John 14:16 "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter" (KJV; "Segond Consolateur" [German Luther Bible revised]; "another Counselor" [RSV, NIV]; "another Advocate" [JB, NRSV, SV]; "another Helper" [TEV]; "another to be your Advocate" [NEB, REB]; "another Paraclete" [NAB, see note: "Jesus is the first Paraclete" in I John 2:1].  In other words, Jesus is the "first counselor," and the Holy Spirit is the "second counselor."

According to Yohanan Muffs, a prophet is similarly an “agent of the Lord.”[3]  However, Muffs continues, a “prophet has another function: He is also an independent advocate to the heavenly court,”[4] but he is both “the messenger of the divine court to the defendant,” and also “the agent of the defendant, attempting to mitigate the severity of the divine decree.”  In Genesis 18:17-25, for example, “God’s hands are tied until Abraham, a human being, makes a request–that is, until a prophet intercedes.”[5]  So too, Moses argues with God that, deserving or not, God is obligated to clear His own name and reputation by redeeming His people – “even though they do not deserve” it.  Moreover, Heaven forbid that God might breach His own unconditional covenant!![6] 

---

[1] See Peggy Lynne Day, An Adversary in Heaven: Satan in the Hebrew Bible, Harvard Semitic Monographs (Scholars Press, 1988); R. S. Kluger, Satan in the Old Testament, trans. H. Nagel (Northwestern Univ., 1967).

[2] John Ashton, “Paraclete,” in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, V:152-153.

[3] Yochanan Muffs, “Agent of the Lord, Warrior for the People: The Prophet’s Paradox,” Bible Review, 18/6 (Dec 2002):21.

[4] Muffs,  Bible Review, 18/6 (Dec 2002):21-22.

[5] Muffs,  Bible Review, 18/6 (Dec 2002: 22.

[6] Muffs,  Bible Review, 18/6 (Dec 2002):23-24.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You misunderstand.  Of course Christ's empathy has to do with his advocacy.
I doubt whether the Father has empathy or not has anything to do with Christ being our advocate.

Since I misunderstood, thank you for clarifying for me. But in clarifying it, I would need to say that the Father must have infinite empathy for and understanding of His fallen children also, in order to allow us an Advocate such as Christ (John 3:16 and 1 John 4:9), who only did what He saw His Father do, and to answer prayers.

[Meadowchik]

I believe that at least an element of advocacy is that WE are willing to humble ourselves enough and accept the gifts the Savior offers us as our Advocate.

[HappyJackWagon]

19 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Of course the Father is capable of understanding and empathizing.  But His role is not that of advocate, rather that role belongs to Christ.  Christ is the advocate because He was the one who was sacrificed.  

This seems like a circular definition. "Jesus is the advocate- because God is not the advocate- because it is Christ's role to be the advocate."  

A lot of your questions seem to be "Why have an advocate?  Why not have the Father be advocate/jury/judge/witness/etc all in one?"  Remember: Christ and the Father are ONE.  They are entirely unified and on the same page, so this isn't Christ vs the Father.  Rather it is justice vs mercy: the Father is standing in the role of justice arbitrator, and Christ is the role of merciful advocate where justice can be fulfilled (assuming repentance as occurred).  The process of watching arbiter versus advocate is for us- that we may be relieved of our burdens of our own repented sins and know that any unrepented crimes done by others are paid for as well.  We see how mercy and justice are both fulfilled, and we grow.

"Why" is a good summation. So is the title of "advocate" superfluous? If they are one, then there really isn't a point in having one advocate to the one. It's like having a judge at a trial also serve as the advocate of the defendant.

The scene most commonly evoked here is the Final Judgement, but it also applies to our continual daily repentance.  For example, when the LOC is broken, Christ helps us through the repentance process and forgives.  Obviously the Final Judgement is the finale.   Yes Christ hears everything we pray to the Father, they are ONE. 

Again, if they are one, and therefore are both aware of everything the other is aware of, the title of advocate seems superfluous.

Addressed in #1.

Everyone is subservient to Jesus (who is servant of the Father).  All everyone is doing is fulfilling a small delegated piece of the pie as a servant.

Bytheway- this was a very thoughtful OP.  Thank you for it, and I shall ponder it more.

Thank you.

 

JLHPROF- as Jane Doe points out, the Father and Son are ONE. If that is the case, how does that fit in with your comment about judgment being a series of judgments.

Quote

JLHPROF-It is my understanding, belief, and opinion that judgment is progressive in nature, much like the temple recommend process.
We are judged progressively up the chain of priesthood before the father passes the final judgment.
We will be judged by our priesthood head, by our dispensation head Joseph Smith, by Christ's presiding apostles, by Christ himself, and then finally by the Father.

What would be the point of both Jesus and the Father both issuing judgment if they are the same. In the TR process I see the dual control of the recommend as being a quality control mechanism to both protect the church and the individual. Presumably that wouldn't be necessary with God.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

JLHPROF- as Jane Doe points out, the Father and Son are ONE. If that is the case, how does that fit in with your comment about judgment being a series of judgments.

What would be the point of both Jesus and the Father both issuing judgment if they are the same. In the TR process I see the dual control of the recommend as being a quality control mechanism to both protect the church and the individual. Presumably that wouldn't be necessary with God.

Jesus pleads our case (we did wrong but repented and He paid the penalty). He pleads our case to the Father because we are separated from Him, so He represents us on the matter of atonement.

He also judges us because we remain separated from living with the Father until after the resurrection, and we cannot walk into His presence unless we are deemed worthy. While He is one with the Father, we are not one with the Father in the same sense (i.e. the church of the Firstborn, which membership is granted post-resurrection) until we are judged and permitted to have this “fullness.”

In some cases we receive anticipatory / preparatory advocacy and judgement, but we still have to wait until the resurrection to realize these benefits.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Jesus pleads our case (we did wrong but repented and He paid the penalty). He pleads our case to the Father because we are separated from Him, so He represents us on the matter of atonement.

 

He also judges us because we remain separated from living with the Father until after the resurrection, and we cannot walk into His presence unless we are deemed worthy. While He is one with the Father, we are not one with the Father in the same sense (i.e. the church of the Firstborn, which membership is granted post-resurrection) until we are judged and permitted to have this “fullness.”

 

In some cases we receive anticipatory / preparatory advocacy and judgement, but we still have to wait until the resurrection to realize these benefits.

I don't understand your point.

If they are one, then why would one advocate to the other on our behalf?  If they are one, meaning they are in perfect harmony in heart and mind then there really would be no need for one to advocate to the other.

IF, on the other hand, they are one like a husband and wife are one, one in purpose but different in perspectives, talents and attributes, then I could see how an advocate could be useful.

If my son asked me to borrow the car keys it wouldn't make sense for me to advocate his case to myself.

But if he asked and I wasn't inclined to let him borrow the keys, so my wife advocated his case to help change my mind, then that would make sense.

But if Jesus and the Father are in perfect harmony there would be no need for one to plead our case to the other.

[bluebell]

Maybe it's a largely symbolic role, but necessary as part of fulfilling the law. 

Like, how in a court of law, every defendant gets a lawyer. It doesn't matter if the judge thinks he's innocent or if the judge and defense agree, he still has a defense lawyer because that is how the law works. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't understand your point.

If they are one, then why would one advocate to the other on our behalf?  If they are one, meaning they are in perfect harmony in heart and mind then there really would be no need for one to advocate to the other.

IF, on the other hand, they are one like a husband and wife are one, one in purpose but different in perspectives, talents and attributes, then I could see how an advocate could be useful.

If my son asked me to borrow the car keys it wouldn't make sense for me to advocate his case to myself.

But if he asked and I wasn't inclined to let him borrow the keys, so my wife advocated his case to help change my mind, then that would make sense.

But if Jesus and the Father are in perfect harmony there would be no need for one to plead our case to the other.

Of course there is, by the simple fact that oneness, like harmony, is not identicality.

For example, musical harmony is the combination of different, simultaneously-sounded musical notes to produce chords and chord progressions having a pleasing effect of one piece. Likewise, the Father and the Son combine different, simultaneously-operating roles to produce atonement, advocacy and judgement having a pleasing effect of one work and glory.

[waveslider]

On 1/20/2017 at 5:52 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

1-  We often hear that Jesus suffered so that he could understand and empathize with our weaknesses and pains so that he could then advocate for us with the Father. Why does Jesus need to advocate our case to God? Is the Father incapable of understanding and empathizing?

Jesus did need to learn to understand and empathize so he could advocate for us, but I'm quite certain that learning these things weren't the only reason. We know that God's house is a house of order and Jesus was foreordained as part of that order to fix the inevitable fall of mankind. As part of that order I'm certain it wasn't just for Christ to benefit himself only; "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1:39) "Man," meaning mankind, as in everyone, not just the Savior alone. God is omniscient, so he already understands and empathizes. The plan is for us all to gain a chance at progression, including the Savior, not for God to learn anything.

On 1/20/2017 at 5:52 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

2- At what point is Jesus advocating for us? At final judgment? If that is the case it would suppose that God the Father is judging us instead of surrogates. Or is Jesus advocating with the Father so our needs are met during this life? If so, why is God not aware of our needs himself that he requires Christ to inform Him in his advocacy for us? It would seem that if we were seeking advocacy during our mortal lives we might actually pray to Jesus, which we don't. When we pray to God does Jesus also hear those prayers so that he can then advocate?

The Atonement is infinite, meaning the advocating has started long before you or I have even been sent to this Earth and it will continue as it has. It even covered those who lived before the Atonement happened in this temporal realm. It is also an Eternal Atonement. No beginning nor end. It is hard to comprehend while we are stuck in this temporal state where time, as we know it, only flows in one direction. Eternally speaking, past, present and future are all now.

I don't think we actually comprehend just how far we have fallen here on Earth, as was presented in the Plan of Happiness, in the great council in Heaven, which triggered the War in Heaven, which isn't over yet but has only moved here to Earth. As I stated above, God's house is a house of order. Part of that plan had our Father allocate this authority to Jesus. Not that God is incapable of anything, but that he allocated it out to make the plan perfect in every way. If no one else was to be included in that plan, then what would be the purpose of that plan in the first place? Merely entertainment for God? Where no one grows, learns anything, or progresses in any type of way? The reason we don't pray to Jesus is also part of that plan, where all the glory goes to the Father. God hears those prayers because of Jesus' being an advocate. We have fallen so far that prayer would be useless without the Plan of Happiness.

On 1/20/2017 at 5:52 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

3- Or is Jesus the judge? "The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son” (John 5:22)." If this is the case, why would Christ advocate on our behalf with the Father if the Father is not judging?

The Father has no need to judge. The judgement has been allocated to Christ and the Father trusts His judgement completely. We too will self judge, because there will be no amount of deception that can get by Christ. We will, ".....have a bright recollection of all our guilt." (Alma 11:43). I don't think the judgement is going to be like some court of law, but rather a discussion with a person who perfectly loves and understands completely, each and every individual who stands before Him at the time of judgement. There will be no mistake on the amount of mercy and justice that is meted out. Christ has already inherited all the God has. He is perfect and has prepared a place for us within His inheritance of God's Kingdom. We can all be sitting on the right hand of the Father along with Christ, as long as Christ allows us that.

On 1/20/2017 at 5:52 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

4-"The Son, in turn, will call upon others to assist in the Judgment. The Twelve who were with Him in His ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel (see Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). The twelve Nephite disciples will judge the Nephite and Lamanite people (see 1 Nephi 12:9–10; Mormon 3:18–19)."  If the Twelve apostles are our judges, why would Christ advocate with the Father. Wouldn't the apostles be subservient to Jesus and follow his wishes as he would be the master steward?

You forgot Adam/Michael will also be in the line of authority, where all the tribes will answer to as well. Each has been allocated their parts within Christs' judgement. Even books will be allocated as being judgemental. Remember it is a perfect judgement. God has made a part for each and every individual to play in the Plan of Happiness. He has allocated these things in perfect order. If we each didn't have our own part within the Plan of Happiness, then I have to question the whole point of having that plan in the first place. No one would progress one iota if God did everything for us. It seems to me that, that would be similar to Satan's plan. These answers are only just my two cents worth anyway.

Edited January 21, 2017 by waveslider
minor grammatical errors

[Jane_Doe]

"This seems like a circular definition. "Jesus is the advocate- because God is not the advocate- because it is Christ's role to be the advocate."  "

Jane-- Analogy time: on a football team, the quarterback serves one role and the linebackers serve another.  Why?  Because that is their chosen roles and a person cannot simultaneously be a linebacker and quarterback.  Likewise, Christ and the Father serve different roles.

"Why" is a good summation. So is the title of "advocate" superfluous? If they are one, then there really isn't a point in having one advocate to the one. It's like having a judge at a trial also serve as the advocate of the defendant.

No, advocate is not a superfluous title.  It is the role that Christ is playing for our benefit.  The Father then plays His role for our benefit as well.  They are different roles, both to benefit us.

Note: while the Father and Son are ONE, this is via unity.  Don't mistakenly think that they are literally the same person (that's not even the Trinitarian view).

Again, if they are one, and therefore are both aware of everything the other is aware of, the title of advocate seems superfluous.

When He advocates for us, Christ is not recounting our the deeds/faith because the Father doesn't know it, but to put all the cards on the table so that we can see them.  We hear Christ show His wonder and knowledge and love, and hear the Father pronounce just judgement.   This is all for our benefit. 

[JLHPROF]

30 minutes ago, waveslider said:

 The plan is for us all to gain a chance at progression, including the Savior, not for God to learn anything.

Not sure I agree with that.

Quote

The Father has no need to judge.
You forgot Adam/Michael will also be in the line of authority

Self-contradictory. 
 

Quote

Each has been allocated their parts within Christs' judgement. Even books will be allocated as being judgemental. Remember it is a perfect judgement.

Scripture also tells us that the Saints will judge the world (presumably those who don't accept the gospel).

[waveslider]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not sure I agree with that.

Self-contradictory. 
 

Scripture also tells us that the Saints will judge the world (presumably those who don't accept the gospel).

What is there for God to learn when God is already omniscient?

I don't see it as being contradictory when Jesus uses tools available to him to judge us. Doesn't the testimony of others count in Christ's judgement?

Again more allocation of the authority to judge. I might add that the only name by which we can get into Heaven is through Christ's, not through a father of all mortal flesh, heads of dispensations and tribes, saints, books, the blood of innocent victims, etc.. I think part of our, "bright recollection of all our guilt," will be because of these others, but our final decision comes from Christ himself.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, waveslider said:

What is there for God to learn when God is already omniscient?

I don't see it as being contradictory when Jesus uses tools available to him to judge us. Doesn't the testimony of others count in Christ's judgement?

Again more allocation of the authority to judge. I might add that the only name by which we can get into Heaven is through Christ's, not through a father of all mortal flesh, heads of dispensations and tribes, saints, books, the blood of innocent victims, etc.. I think part of our, "bright recollection of all our guilt," will be because of these others, but our final decision comes from Christ himself.

- I don't believe in omniscience.  I consider it a faulty concept.
Although philosophers do allow for both:

• inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
• total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

I am far more willing to accept a related idea to inherent omniscience given scripture. 
Total omniscience I consider to be nonsense, and frankly a form of torture.

- The self-contradictory statement was a little joke about Adam-God.
- The rest I basically agree with.

Edited January 21, 2017 by JLHPROF

[waveslider]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

- I don't believe in omniscience.  I consider it a faulty concept.
Although philosophers do allow for both:

• inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
• total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

I am far more willing to accept a related idea to inherent omniscience given scripture. 
Total omniscience I consider to be nonsense, and frankly a form of torture.

- The self-contradictory statement was a little joke about Adam-God.
- The rest I basically agree with.

I will agree to disagree on the point of total omniscience. I don't believe that God is limited to the construct of what we know as time. I think He is in a Celestial realm, in which Eternity means that past, present, and future are all experienced as now to Him. On top of that He knows each and everyone of us so perfectly that He knows what we will decided in any given circumstance, even before we figure out what it is we will decide. Just my opinion though.

[JLHPROF]

35 minutes ago, waveslider said:

I will agree to disagree on the point of total omniscience. I don't believe that God is limited to the construct of what we know as time. I think He is in a Celestial realm, in which Eternity means that past, present, and future are all experienced as now to Him. On top of that He knows each and everyone of us so perfectly that He knows what we will decided in any given circumstance, even before we figure out what it is we will decide. Just my opinion though.

Does that mean that you think we will likewise be omniscient when we enter the Celestial realm, knowing everything just as God does?
If not, I fail to see the source of God's supposed total omniscience.
 

Edited January 21, 2017 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

JLHPROF- as Jane Doe points out, the Father and Son are ONE. If that is the case, how does that fit in with your comment about judgment being a series of judgments.

What would be the point of both Jesus and the Father both issuing judgment if they are the same. In the TR process I see the dual control of the recommend as being a quality control mechanism to both protect the church and the individual. Presumably that wouldn't be necessary with God.

Good question.
I don't have a definitive answer.
But I'll give a speculative one.

Judgment in a TR process has the Bishop representing the head of the Aaronic (despite the fact he is a HP) and the SP representing the Melchizedek.

The Father and the Son are not one and the same in Mormonism as you well know.  They each have stewardships and orders.  In Mormonism the Son is subordinate to the Father.  Scripture says no man comes to the Father except through the Son.  D&C 76 says that Terrestrial has the presence of the Son but not the Fulness of the Father.
They are not the same.
My speculation is that the progressive judgment often lists Christ as the end because he determines who enters into the Father's presence in the Celestial Kingdom, whether or not the fulfilled the requisite laws.  That is HIS stewardship as the Son.  But the Father will determine things directly related to HIS stewardship, perhaps determining level of exaltation or future roles for us.

My point is (since that was clear as mud) the judgments are progressive as the laws and ordinances are progressive.  Just as the Bishop and SP are.
There are ordinances and laws that fall under different jurisdictions - the dispensation, the Son, the Father.  Each will judge their stewardship.
 

[waveslider]

On 1/21/2017 at 1:06 PM, JLHPROF said:

Does that mean that you think we will likewise be omniscient when we enter the Celestial realm, knowing everything just as God does?
If not, I fail to see the source of God's supposed total omniscience.
 

I don't know the exact moment when we will learn all there is to learn, but yes. I believe eternal progression isn't eternally learning, but rather progressing by creating worlds and populating them with our own offspring, adding more and more glory to our own Father in Heaven.

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, waveslider said:

I don't know the exact moment when we will learn all there is to learn, but yes. I believe eternal progression isn't eternally learning, but rather progressing by creating worlds and populating them with our own offspring, adding more and more glory to our own Father in Heaven.

Fair enough.  I don't measure progress by amount of possessions.  And neither does God according to scripture.  His glory is intelligence.  The only way to increase in glory is to learn more.

[waveslider]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Fair enough.  I don't measure progress by amount of possessions.  And neither does God according to scripture.  His glory is intelligence.  The only way to increase in glory is to learn more.

While it is true that, "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth."(D&C 93:36), it is also written:

"For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."
Moses 1:39

Edited January 23, 2017 by waveslider
Forgot quotation marks