Joseph Smith's Polygamy

[Zakuska]

For those who dare contemplate...  What was the Babylonian law Abraham lived under RE: Barren wife.

 

 

Childbearing

Monogamy was the rule, and a childless wife might give her husband a maid to bear him children, who were then reckoned hers. She remained mistress of her maid, and might degrade her to slavery again for insolence, but could not sell her if she had borne her husband children. If the wife did this, the Code did not allow the husband to take a concubine; but if she did not, he could do so. The concubine was a co-wife, though not of the same rank; the first wife had no power over her. A concubine was a free woman, often dowered for marriage, and her children were legitimate and lawful heirs. She could only be divorced on the same conditions as a wife.

If a wife became a chronic invalid, the husband was bound to maintain her in the home they had made together, unless she preferred to take her dowry and return to her father's house; but he was free to remarry. Again, the children of the new wife were legitimate and lawful heirs.

There was no hindrance to a man having children by a slave girl. These children were free, and their mother then could not be sold, though she might be pledged, and she became free upon her master's death. Her children could be legitimized by their father's acknowledgment before witnesses and were often adopted. They then ranked equally in sharing their father's estate; but if not adopted, the wife's children divided and took first choice.

Temple priests were not supposed to have children, yet they could marry and often did. The Code contemplated that such a wife would give a husband a maid, as above.

Free women might marry slaves and still be dowered for the marriage. The children were free, and at the slave's death, the wife took her dowry and half of what she and her husband had acquired in wedlock for self and children; the master taking the other half, as his slave's heir.

A father had control over his children until their marriage. He had a right to their labor in return for their keep. He might hire them out and receive their wages, pledge them for debt, or even sell them outright. Mothers had the same rights in the absence of the father; elder brothers, when both parents were dead. A father had no claim on his married children for support, but they retained the right to inherit on his death.

The daughter was not only in her father's power to be given in marriage, but he might dedicate her to the service of a god as a vestal or a hierodule or give her as a concubine. She had no choice in these matters, often decided in her childhood. An adult daughter might wish to become a votary, perhaps in preference to an uncongenial marriage, and it seems that her father could not refuse her wish.

In all these cases, the father might dower her. If he did not, on his death the brothers were obligated to do so, giving her a full child's share if a wife, a concubine or a vestal, but one-third of a child's share if she were a hierodule or a Marduk priestess. The latter had the privilege of exemption from state dues and absolute disposal of her property. All other daughters had only a life interest in their dowry, which reverted to their family if childless or went to their children if they had any. A father might, however, execute a deed granting a daughter power to leave her property to a favorite brother or sister.

A daughter's estate was usually managed for her by her brothers, but if they dissatisfied her, she could appoint a steward. If she married, her husband then managed it. Sons also appear to have received their share on marriage, but then did not always leave their father's house; they might bring their wives there. This was usual in child marriages.

'

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_law#Childbearing

Edited August 18, 2015 by Zakuska

[HappyJackWagon]

What was the Babylonian law Abraham lived under.

 

 

'

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_law#Childbearing

Is this a biblical command to practice polygamy?

 

Or is it simply a description of the time and society in which Abraham is supposed to have lived? The accepted culture of a specific time and place, whether it promotes polygamy or slavery, does not equate the practice with God's law.

[ALarson]

Is this a biblical command to practice polygamy?

 

Or is it simply a description of the time and society in which Abraham is supposed to have lived? The accepted culture of a specific time and place, whether it promotes polygamy or slavery, does not equate the practice with God's law.

Right.  There is nowhere in Zakuska's quote where God commanded anyone to live polygamy.

[jkwilliams]

Right.  There is nowhere in Zakuska's quote where God commanded anyone to live polygamy.

 

The Babylonians are mentioned in the Bible, and Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham as a wife under Babylonian law. Hence, it was a commandment of God. 

[ttribe]

The Babylonians are mentioned in the Bible, and Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham as a wife under Babylonian law. Hence, it was a commandment of God. 

 

You forgot - "QED".

[Calm]

When I taught lessons, the manuals specifically told me NOT to go look elsewhere.

It always fascinates me how different people interpret the same words.

As a teacher who almost always read the instructions (which I have found as a librarian, many didn't bother but just stuck with the lesson stuff where I don't think the instruction about additional resources is usually included iirc) of every manual I taught from as well as many I didn't as a ward librarian, I never interpreted the instruction as "not to go look elsewhere" but as "don't have to go elsewhere" and I always did go elsewhere even if I didn't use additional material in my lesson. Perhaps it helped that I started out as a Primary teacher and knew Deseretbook published or sold a number of Primary lesson aids that would have to be defined as "elsewhere" since they were not church approved so when I became a Gospel Doctrine teacher though I turned first for additional info to Institute manuals, I didn't stop there and read commentaries and histories. Never had a leader or parent in 30 years express anything but an appreciation that I did. I feel very blessed for getting that type of support instead of the reports I hear from others here.

Undoubtedly that affected how I continue to read the instructions as not requiring one to go elsewhere, to primarily emphasize Church Distribution materials, but never not allowing me to supplement my preparation with other materials, especially if directed by the Spirit (which I believe did push me to expand my study because it knew that would increase my confidence which due to high level of shyness and social anxiety needed heavy, constant feeding).

Add-on: can't cut and paste from ipad so here's just the link:

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/helps-for-the-teacher?lang=eng

I still read it as first studying first materials provided and being fully aware of them before going to supplemental materials, the best of which are church magazines. But the description is always in terms of priority and not, imo, ever in terms of restriction.

Edited August 18, 2015 by calmoriah

[jkwilliams]

Interesting article in yesterday's New York Times. I can't say I love her artwork, but I appreciate the sentiment.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/us/mormon-leader-joseph-smiths-34-wives-inspire-utah-artist.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=2

[Calm]

I took Institute for one semester, before transferring schools to an area where Institute was not available.

Thanks. Very understandable how you did not get taught anything about it then.

[Calm]

Is this a biblical command to practice polygamy?

Or is it simply a description of the time and society in which Abraham is supposed to have lived? The accepted culture of a specific time and place, whether it promotes polygamy or slavery, does not equate the practice with God's law.

As far as I could tell, a slave as a surrogate mother for a childless wife was only an option, not a requirement anyway (unlike the levirate marriage law in the Bible...which I realize others don't interpret it as requiring polygyny in the case of the brothers being responsible already being married...and given that the children would not be considered his in such a marriage, it seems unlikely that even an unmarried brother wouldn't eventually marry another wife for his own official posterity). So it doesn't satisfy the CFR even if accepted as the biblical standard of Abraham's time.

I need to check Sister Wilson's talk on the emancipation of women in the NT, there was some reference to what the Jewish law was at the time of Christ and it was harsher than I had previously understood. (add-on: it was not relevant, a man had a religious obligation to divorce a wife who had been barren ten years...assuming this means during the usual childbearing years).

Edited August 18, 2015 by calmoriah

[Guest]

Apparently, some people have a rather low opinion of Emma Smith.

Don't know why...when the Church split she went with her family and son (of course) and 35 years later he last words were speaking of Joseph. So it is clear (although had to speak out against polygamy to keep from being considered a non-Christian in a different setting) She knew Joseph was a polygamist, and her final words after being married to someone else for more years than to Joseph...he final words, "Joseph I'm coming". Her love was for Joseph, where she chose as well as her children to be buried beside he beloved Joseph. So who are we, or who things they know more about the issue. Knowing he was a polygamist, she never left him and despondent at his death. Any who came along 150+ years later feeling they are the victims, when she did not. Any who don't like Emma, need to get over themselves. Joseph love her and she loved him...Joseph was the father of her children and never had children by any others. If all these woman he was sealed too, never had his children...what are the odds? The mob killed him and other faiths and disaffected members are still trying to kill him. The weapon of choice is no longer a gun, but a keyboard...thus fulfilling what Christ said to him..."Your name should be had for good or ill among all the Nations of the earth". Argue that he is a prophet or not, but this young boy (at the time) could not have know, unless a Prophet how could he know he was bringing a worldwide religion.

[jkwilliams]

Don't know why...when the Church split she went with her family and son (of course) and 35 years later he last words were speaking of Joseph. So it is clear (although had to speak out against polygamy to keep from being considered a non-Christian in a different setting) She knew Joseph was a polygamist, and her final words after being married to someone else for more years than to Joseph...he final words, "Joseph I'm coming". Her love was for Joseph, where she chose as well as her children to be buried beside he beloved Joseph. So who are we, or who things they know more about the issue. Knowing he was a polygamist, she never left him and despondent at his death. Any who came along 150+ years later feeling they are the victims, when she did not. Any who don't like Emma, need to get over themselves. Joseph love her and she loved him...Joseph was the father of her children and never had children by any others. If all these woman he was sealed too, never had his children...what are the odds? The mob killed him and other faiths and disaffected members are still trying to kill him. The weapon of choice is no longer a gun, but a keyboard...thus fulfilling what Christ said to him..."Your name should be had for good or ill among all the Nations of the earth". Argue that he is a prophet or not, but this young boy (at the time) could not have know, unless a Prophet how could he know he was bringing a worldwide religion.

 

I'm sorry, but finding his actions to be troubling is not the same thing as "trying to kill him." Emma was probably a lot more troubled by his actions than I am, but she stuck by him, as you say. I don't see the need to demonize people who disagree about his practice of polygamy. 

[CA Steve]

I'm sorry, but finding his actions to be troubling is not the same thing as "trying to kill him." Emma was probably a lot more troubled by his actions than I am, but she stuck by him, as you say. I don't see the need to demonize people who disagree about his practice of polygamy. 

I think Emma's action's, after Joesph Jr. death, are best explained as supportive of her children, especially Joseph III, and the course they took.

[jkwilliams]

I think Emma's action's, after Joesph Jr. death, are best explained as supportive of her children, especially Joseph III, and the course they took.

 

I think so, too. I just think it's a bit too much to say that people who are troubled by these issues are trying to kill Joseph Smith again.

[Guest]

You know I have always considered you a friend, and I certainly don't think you have embarrassed yourself here. I just wasn't sure what you meant by your "popular" comment.

I mentioned some unnamed doubts...nothing that would suggest apostasy...before that I could PM any of my 54 friends...now no one responds, even one I sent you about your book. Only Eray sent me a post to check on me, but that is it. But, so be it, I am a grown up and understand how doubt scares people. BTW, my doubts I mention were about a friend who died sunddenly who was far to young leaving a wife and 12 year old...and the things I said at the funeral. So being suddenly unpopular is what I am basing it on. Either way it does not mean anything to my testimony.

[jkwilliams]

I mentioned some unnamed doubts...nothing that would suggest apostasy...before that I could PM any of my 54 friends...now no one responds, even one I sent you about your book. Only Eray sent me a post to check on me, but that is it. But, so be it, I am a grown up and understand how doubt scares people. BTW, my doubts I mention were about a friend who died sunddenly who was far to young leaving a wife and 12 year old...and the things I said at the funeral. So being suddenly unpopular is what I am basing it on. Either way it does not mean anything to my testimony.

 

I don't remember seeing a PM from you. If I missed it, I'm sorry.

[Walden]

Thanks. Very understandable how you did not get taught anything about it then.

 

That's exactly my point....I was raised in the church from birth, spent every single Sunday of my life for the first 20-odd years in Primary, Young Men, seminary, etc. meetings and heard many, many stories and was taught many, many lessons regarding polygamy as practiced by Brigham Young and Parley Pratt and other pioneer mormons, but not one lesson on Joseph Smith polygamy. Likewise, I was taught in many lessons, exclusively, that Joseph Smith used a Urim and Thummin for translating purposes, with no mention of peep stones or the head-in-a-hat method of translation. Heck, they devote an entire school year to D&C and Church History in seminary, with lessons on these very subjects, except for some reason, they exclude certain facts, and these excluded facts are not exactly superfluous.

 

Reading your comment, how is it understandable that I wasn't taught these things because I didn't attend Institute? As an 8 through 18-year old, I was taught much about the practice of polygamy in the church, as well as the translation method using the Urim and Thummin, so why the subterfuge regarding Joseph Smith's polygamy or the true manner of translation? Why is a 17-year-old "seminary" mind only capable of handling Brigham Young's polygamy, but an 18-year old "Institute" mind suddenly capable of handling Smith's polygamy?

[Guest]

I'm sorry, but finding his actions to be troubling is not the same thing as "trying to kill him." Emma was probably a lot more troubled by his actions than I am, but she stuck by him, as you say. I don't see the need to demonize people who disagree about his practice of polygamy.

I speak of killing the idea of a Prophet...but I knew this when we used to talk. My friendship is not so shallow I cannot be friend with those I disagree. I was by the way, speaking generally, not directed at you personally...not that type of person. I thought you knew this. But my point is, Emma was the one who should victimized, why are others a century and a half later. Obviously Gog has allowed it when necessary, but clearly prefers it not be necessary. There was a time God required at a ne time, if a man died, his brother was required to insure his wife be able to raise up seed for the descessed brother...even punished one of Jacob's children for not doing so...he did have relations with his sister-in-law, but insured that his seed did not enter in. (Trying to tiptoe around the wording) He also gave Soloman's wives unto David.

[jkwilliams]

I speak of killing the idea of a Prophet...but I knew this when we used to talk. My friendship is not so shallow I cannot be friend with those I disagree. I was by the way, speaking generally, not directed at you personally...not that type of person. I thought you knew this. But my point is, Emma was the one who should victimized, why are others a century and a half later. Obviously Gog has allowed it when necessary, but clearly prefers it not be necessary. There was a time God required at a ne time, if a man died, his brother was required to insure his wife be able to raise up seed for the descessed brother...even punished one of Jacob's children for not doing so...he did have relations with his sister-in-law, but insured that his seed did not enter in. (Trying to tiptoe around the wording) He also gave Soloman's wives unto David.

 

I used to hear from you once in a while, but then you kind of stopped. Maybe I just missed it.

[ALarson]

Reading your comment, how is it understandable that I wasn't taught these things because I didn't attend Institute? As an 8 through 18-year old, I was taught much about the practice of polygamy in the church, as well as the translation method using the Urim and Thummin, so why the subterfuge regarding Joseph Smith's polygamy or the true manner of translation? Why is a 17-year-old "seminary" mind only capable of handling Brigham Young's polygamy, but an 18-year old "Institute" mind suddenly capable of handling Smith's polygamy?

From my experience of attending institute, I wasn't taught any details regarding how Joseph lived polygamy, only that he did take on a few plural wives (older widows that he was sealed to). Maybe some institute teachers did get into more details about how many wives Joseph actually had (and their ages being as young as 14 years old), but I would think that was rare if at all.  I also doubt that his polyandry was discussed in institute classes, but hopefully more is being covered now with the release of the essays.

[Thinking]

But the description is always in terms of priority and not, imo, ever in terms of restriction.

 

Current: "Additional references and commentaries should not be necessary to teach the lessons."

 

Former: "It is not necessary or recommended that members purchase additional commentaries or reference texts to support the material in the text. Members are encouraged to turn to the scriptures that have been suggested for further study of the doctrine."

 

The former statement is a little stronger as far as restricting sources, IMO.

[Zakuska]

The Babylonians are mentioned in the Bible, and Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham as a wife under Babylonian law. Hence, it was a commandment of God. 

You missed a step. God also commands that we should "Uphold and Sustain the law of the land".  Abraham only followed the law of the land.

[jkwilliams]

Current: "Additional references and commentaries should not be necessary to teach the lessons."

 

Former: "It is not necessary or recommended that members purchase additional commentaries or reference texts to support the material in the text. Members are encouraged to turn to the scriptures that have been suggested for further study of the doctrine."

 

The former statement is a little stronger as far as restricting sources, IMO.

 

I once had a roommate who started yelling at me because I told him I wasn't happy with the lesson as it was in the manual and was going to use some other material to make for a more interesting lesson. He told me I had no right to "stray from the manual," as these lesson manuals had been carefully prepared by the Brethren through the inspiration of the spirit. He got pretty angry, so I just walked out the door and worked on my lesson in the library.

[ttribe]

You missed a step. God also commands that we should "Uphold and Sustain the law of the land".  Abraham only followed the law of the land.

 

That's your way of concluding that God commanded polygamy anciently?

 

So, are you suggesting that it was the law of the land that required Abraham to live polygamy?

[jkwilliams]

You missed a step. God also commands that we should "Uphold and Sustain the law of the land".  Abraham only followed the law of the land.

 

So, let me see if I have this straight: Abraham follows the law of the land by taking Hagar to wife, so that means it is equivalent to a commandment from God. By this logic, I didn't make a right turn on a red light at Herndon Parkway this morning because of the sign that says "no right turn on red," so it means God commanded me not to turn right on a red light.

 

I'm not even sure that qualifies as a straw you are grasping at. Wow.

[stemelbow]

I once had a roommate who started yelling at me because I told him I wasn't happy with the lesson as it was in the manual and was going to use some other material to make for a more interesting lesson. He told me I had no right to "stray from the manual," as these lesson manuals had been carefully prepared by the Brethren through the inspiration of the spirit. He got pretty angry, so I just walked out the door and worked on my lesson in the library.

It's gonna be kinda funny when after this life, the whole "sticking to the manual" and controlling the info shared amongst the saints is going to prove to be one of the problems of our era. More and more are getting that though.