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Joseph Smith's Polygamy

Calm

By Calm
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ALarson Grand Master

ALarson

Posted
Posted (edited)

Also, we're talking about things that violate our conscience. Reducing the light of Christ to "the mind of the flesh" is, well, absurd and foolish.

Exactly.

 

I think it was you that stated if we remove the detail that it was Joseph Smith doing these things (the marrying of other men's wives, daughters and Emma's young maids, and the deceit and lies involved with keeping it from Emma), no one would be defending this behavior let alone praising it (or saying it was brilliant that he kept if from his wife). (Or something along those lines.  You probably stated it much better! :) ) 

Edited by ALarson
jkwilliams Grand Master

jkwilliams

Posted
Posted

Exactly.

 

I think it was you that stated if we remove the detail that it was Joseph Smith doing these things (the marrying of other men's wives, daughters and Emma's young maids, and the deceit and lies involved with keeping it from Emma), no one would be defending this behavior let alone praising it (or saying it was brilliant that he kept if from his wife). (Or something along those lines.  You probably stated it much better! :) )

Yes, that was me. If I were to describe the same situation but say it was Joel Osteen or Rick Warren, would anyone here be defending the behavior? Not a chance.

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carbon dioxide Grand Master

carbon dioxide

Posted
Posted

Do the math. If Adam had more than one wife they were his daughters. Having sex with one's daughter? There's a word for that.

That depends one when he took a second wife.  If it was in 300 years old, that would allot plenty of time for his daughters to marry have kids and those kids to have kids and so forth.  We don't know how old Eve was before she died as well.  930 years is a long time.  Perhaps Adam had 5 wives when he was 700 years old. 

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

Just curious, but why do you believe that Joseph Smith never did anything remotely wrong? Is there some requirement that we have to accept every last thing a prophet does as being the will of God? I think this gets dangerously close to assigning infallibility to the prophet. Would you have a problem with a prophet who did something wrong? Would, say, lying to the police about a criminal case disqualify a man from being a prophet?

Can a prophet lay a true and faithful foundation without being perfect?

It just seems like a rather black-and-white way of looking at life. I had a professor at BYU who talked about people who can't handle their leaders' flaws and errors. He said that, while stationed in the Army, he came across some troubling information about Joseph Smith that he couldn't resolve. He went to his branch president, a man he looked up to as an example and mentor. When the branch president opened the door, he was smoking a cigar. My professor said he resolved then and there never to let a church leader's failings affect his own faith.

I don't understand the need to vindicate every last bit of Joseph Smith's life. Seems like it sets us up for some disappointment.

 

There has been only one perfect man, and we ain't him.

carbon dioxide Grand Master

carbon dioxide

Posted
Posted (edited)

So, Joseph HAD to sneak off to the barn with Fanny, marry young teenage girls who worked for Emma and marry wives of other members? Is that what you mean when you say "he had to do what he had to do"?

Marry teen brides is not an issue for me.  Today it would be an issue because such a thing would seriously put limitations on the couple in terms of college and employment.  Teen brides today lead to poverty.  Back then when college was not an option to most people and employment opportunities were limited, it was would not be that big of a deal to marry younger.  There is NOTHING magical about age 18.  The whole idea that when a person turns 18 they become an adult is based on legal nonsense.  A 17 year old is no different than an 18 year old.

 

If it be correct that Joseph has to sneak off into the barn to marry Fanny, why was it?  Why did not Emma join them? 

 

If Joseph was sealed to wives of other members but those wives continued to live with those other members and that sealing was nothing more than a priesthood ordinance, what is the big deal?  Especially if the other members were supportive of the decision?  Those who were not involved in these decisions need to mind their own business. 

Edited by carbon dioxide
thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

Marry teen brides is not an issue for me.  Today it would be an issue because such a thing would seriously put limitations on the couple in terms of college and employment.  Teen brides today lead to poverty.  Back then when college was not an option to most people and employment opportunities were limited, it was would not be that big of a deal to marry younger.  There is NOTHING magical about age 18.  The whole idea that when a person turns 18 they become an adult is based on legal nonsense.  A 17 year old is no different than an 18 year old.

 

If it be correct that Joseph has to sneak off into the barn to marry Fanny, why was it?  Why did not Emma join them? 

 

If Joseph was sealed to wives of other members but those wives continued to live with those other members and that sealing was nothing more than a priesthood ordinance, what is the big deal?  Especially if the other members were supportive of the decision?  Those who were not involved in these decisions need to mind their own business. 

 

Back in dinosaur days when I was in High School it was perfectly legal for a 13 year old to get married. Not that I recommended it then or now.

ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted (edited)

When it comes to Joseph Smith's polygamy, I believe we are now, at best, "looking through a glass darkly;" and in the end he will be totally vindicated and declared innocent of any wrongdoing with regard to plural marriage on the day of judgement by the Lord himself. There will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth when those who so fervently wanted to believe he did wrong -- so they could feel justifed in their own iniquities -- will learn he only did what God commanded him to do.

There is certainly way to prove this to any critic's satisfaction, but this is what I believe. I feel the Spirit of the Lord and the revelations of God much too strongly in my life. through my membership and active participation in the Church, to ever dare to say that the Ptophet Joseph Smith didn't lay a true and faithful foundation. A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good and holy fruit, and I know the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are the finest, most sincere and spiritually-empowered men on earth. Get over it if you can, but I will remain true and faithful to what for me has been a source of tremendous joy and peace unspeakable.

But there's no sense arguing about it because the things of God will always appear absurd and foolish to the mind of flesh. And in its own way, a mind of the flesh can become almost as completely convinced as is a mind that's under the influence of the Spirit. So these arguments end up like like like futile attempts to emulsify oil and water. So why even try?

 

I wonder if you might try this again without the self righteousness and the smug sense of superiority?  Never mind, I should know better.

 

What about having intimate relations with one's sister, because that's precisely what happened when Adam's sons and daughters kept the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.

 

Was this supposed to help your argument?  Because, it really doesn't.

Edited by ttribe
ALarson Grand Master

ALarson

Posted
Posted

If it be correct that Joseph has to sneak off into the barn to marry Fanny, why was it?  Why did not Emma join them? 

:o

 

And just how was Joseph sealed to Fanny prior to him receiving the sealing keys?

 

What type of ceremony did he perform?  It wasn't a legal one because he was already legally married to Emma.  It wasn't a sealing because he hadn't received the keys to do this yet.  Any thoughts?

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Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

It appears you're returned (perhaps you never left?) to believing the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are prophets. If so, I'm very happy for you.

I've stayed active, no one the wiser of my faith struggle, with the exception of my former bishop and current bishop and one my former bishop's counselors.  BTW, I believe many can be a prophet.  I believe women can be too, prophetesses are in the bible.  And believe also, that some are closer to Him and more in tune.  But my belief is probably a lot different than yours.  This is how I cope I guess. How I manage to stay in the church.  I pick out the good and compare it to the bad and the good rules so far.  I've tried sitting in on just a few other faith traditions, but I'm Mormon through and through.  Can't shed it, it's my culture.  Not everyone can be the stalwart member you are.  But thank you for being happy for me.  It would be fun to just one day meet people on this board, I'll bet we're not that far apart in our beliefs when it comes down to it.  Just individuals with different journey's and the outcome of them make us the people we are.  I think heaven would be mighty boring if we felt exactly the same about everything church wise.  God probably wants his children to be unique, not like robots.  Forgive me for saying this, but Bobbieaware I feel like you sometimes want that sameness.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.  Nevermind, you will!  ;)   

jkwilliams Grand Master

jkwilliams

Posted
Posted

There has been only one perfect man, and we ain't him.

Exactly, so why do we go through such exertions to justify every last thing Joseph Smith did? I have no problem with a flawed human being called of God to do a great work. In fact, if God is going to do His work, it's always going to be through flawed humans.

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

Exactly, so why do we go through such exertions to justify every last thing Joseph Smith did? I have no problem with a flawed human being called of God to do a great work. In fact, if God is going to do His work, it's always going to be through flawed humans.

 

I don't know why some do try to justify everything Joseph Smith did. For me he was a good man who tried to do what his God told him to do. He never claimed to be perfect, and that gives me great hope that someday I too can some of the experiences with God that he had.

BookofMormonLuvr Mentor

BookofMormonLuvr

Posted
Posted

How is it that you can fill this many thread pages over and over and over again on this subject, saying the exact same things said every other time you have filled this many pages on this same topic?

I wish this subject would just die.

:beatdeadhorse:

ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted

So; if it has a long history of being legal and not a sin. It presentism in the extreme to place our modern day conventions onto ancient peoples.

 

Yeah, okay, well the context of justifying certain actions of more modern individuals using Adam as an example set the whole thing off; in case that matters to you.

BookofMormonLuvr Mentor

BookofMormonLuvr

Posted
Posted

I think the Kingston Order would agree with you and BobbieAware.

Do the Kingston's actually practice familial marriage in contradiction to the scriptures?

There is actually no scriptural prohibition against Uncle-Niece marriages or first cousin marriages- for what it's worth.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
  • Author
Posted

How is it that you can fill this many thread pages over and over and over again on this subject, saying the exact same things said every other time you have filled this many pages on this same topic?

I wish this subject would just die. :beatdeadhorse:

Your wish is my command....

It was never really on topic anyway imo. I may even as the mods to delete the conversation after the first page out of respect for the effort the speaker has put into her study and sharing of informationunless anyone feels there was something unique in what was said and it wasn't just repetition.

Anyone who feels this would be a bad thing PM me with your explanations, thanks.

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