Joseph Smith's Polygamy

[ALarson]

I don't recall David being commanded to take plural wives, either.

This has been discussed at great length here.  As far as I can tell, the closest we come to having a record that God ever commanded a man to live polygamy is the Levirate marriage instructions. But, this is not a specific commandment to live polygamy.

[jkwilliams]

According to the Bible God would have given David more. Moreover Biblical polygamy can not be denied.

 

I remember using 2 Samuel 12 in exactly that way. I don't have a problem with polygamy, never have. The practice was permitted in the Old Testament, though I don't see anywhere it was commanded as such. But for me, polygamy isn't the problem. 

[ALarson]

According to the Bible God would have given David more. Moreover Biblical polygamy can not be denied.

Yes, there was polygamy mentioned in the Bible.  But not commanded.

[stemelbow]

The thing is, I am not one of those people who felt lied to, but I certainly can understand why they feel that way. Yet people here say that these members are mistaken, that the church isn't to be blamed at all for not sharing the more sordid details of church history. No, it's the member's fault for not studying more diligently.

I see it more as a mix. I am all for the idea that each individual contributes to his/her own life and circumstance. That this is not only about blame. I also agree that the Church, this conglomeration of many individuals over spread across many years and thus, a number of different objectives, withheld information. That's a problem that needs to be corrected and that, at least in part, seems to be something that is being addressed by the Church, as it tries to be more open without making a big noisy fuss about it.

When I read this thread, catching myself up, I saw your post putting lazy and intransigent in quotation marks and wondered who was taking the discussing in that direction, as it didn't seem anyone was. I kinda get the "well you simply didn't read enough to get the information" so the Church is not solely to blame on this. I also get the "the Church withheld information, giving the impression things were settled and there were no issues or possible issues" approach too.

 

In the same way, it's the member's fault if any of this stuff bothers them. According to some folks, only self-righteous, judgmental people would have a problem with a church leader having sex with other women behind his wife's back; only fault-finders would think it inappropriate for a married 38-year-old church leader to tell teenage girls that their secret marriage to him will guarantee their families a place in heaven; and only bitter apostates would think there's something wrong with a married man secretly marrying other men's wives.

mmm..I think the concerns, perhaps even on both sides, are more nuanced than that, though. It's true, in my mind, that many members react too defensively. But I'm not sure anyone is out there saying, "people are being too judgmental if they want to condemn someone for having sex with another woman by his wife's back". The added issue that a defender has in mind is that Joseph's case was different because to the defender Joseph was commanded of God.

[Zakuska]

God commanded Abraham to what?  Multiply and replenish the earth.  Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. 

 

Sounds like God Commanded Abraham to have more than one wife to me.

[jkwilliams]

mmm..I think the concerns, perhaps even on both sides, are more nuanced than that, though. It's true, in my mind, that many members react too defensively. But I'm not sure anyone is out there saying, "people are being too judgmental if they want to condemn someone for having sex with another woman by his wife's back". The added issue that a defender has in mind is that Joseph's case was different because to the defender Joseph was commanded of God.

 

This is the heart of the matter for me. I do not believe that Joseph Smith's behavior with women disqualifies him from being a prophet, but believing he was a prophet doesn't require me to accept that what he did was right, either. But I did justify it. I told myself that it must have been OK because he was a prophet of God. But if this had been anyone other than Joseph Smith, there's no way I would have justified it. It finally occurred to me that I couldn't rationalize or justify it, so I stopped doing that. Unfortunately for me, when I stopped rationalizing that one thing, I stopped rationalizing an awful lot of things. 

[jkwilliams]

God commanded Abraham to what?  Multiply and replenish the earth.  Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. 

 

Sounds like God Commanded Abraham to have more than one wife to me.

 

I thought he commanded Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth. With Abraham, God promised him a posterity greater than the sands of the seas. Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham because she didn't think she was capable of bearing children, so by your logic, Sarai's lack of faith in God's promise is equivalent to a command. 

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, there was polygamy mentioned in the Bible.  But not commanded.

 

SEE http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/polygamy.html

[Zakuska]

I thought he commanded Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth. With Abraham, God promised him a posterity greater than the sands of the seas. Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham because she didn't think she was capable of bearing children, so by your logic, Sarai's lack of faith in God's promise is equivalent to a command. 

 

That's the logic layed out In D&C 132.

 

PS. Was not Abraham a Temple goer so to speak?  He would have had the same teachings as a proxy of Adam (The first man which are many) as Sarai an Eve. He was placed under the same Covenant to propagate the species. The same covenant given to Noah and co. The Same covenant each LDS member makes in the temple.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Zakuska

[thesometimesaint]

I remember using 2 Samuel 12 in exactly that way. I don't have a problem with polygamy, never have. The practice was permitted in the Old Testament, though I don't see anywhere it was commanded as such. But for me, polygamy isn't the problem. 

 

I'm just glad God hasn't commanded the return of mortal polygamy yet.

[ALarson]

SEE http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/polygamy.html

See these threads:

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65419-god-commanded-plural-marriage-in-the-bible/

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65260-why-did-polygamy-need-to-be-restored-when-not-previously-commanded/

[ALarson]

God commanded Abraham to what?  Multiply and replenish the earth.  Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. 

 

Sounds like God Commanded Abraham to have more than one wife to me.

So, you assume since Sarai gave Abraham another woman, this means that God commanded Abraham to live polygamy?

 

That's quite the leap and assumption!

[ALarson]

I'm just glad God hasn't commanded the return of mortal polygamy yet.

We can agree on that

 

Although, I actually have no issue with those who want to live polygamy as long as it's between consenting adults.

[ALarson]

That's the logic layed out In D&C 132.

 

 

We were discussing where polygamy was commanded anywhere in the Bible.  

[Zakuska]

We were discussing where polygamy was commanded anywhere in the Bible.  

 

D&C 132 - "And why did she do it? Because this was the law;"

 

What was the Biblical law of a barren woman? How was she to comply with the command to be fruitful?

 

Gal 4:25-31 tells us that Agar was a "bondwoman"... meaning she was given to Abraham to wife under "THE LAW OF MOSES".

 

Now if I'm not mistaken God Gave Moses the Law on the Mount which included this stipulation for Sarai to Give Hagar as a Bondwoman. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Zakuska

[HappyJackWagon]

God commanded Abraham to what?  Multiply and replenish the earth.  Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. 

 

Sounds like God Commanded Abraham to have more than one wife to me.

Wowsers!

 

As a son of Adam I have also been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. Should I interpret that as a command or even approval to take additional wives or simply plany my seed anywhere I choose for the sake of multiplying? You may want to rethink your argument.

Edited August 18, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[thesometimesaint]

We can agree on that

 

Although, I actually have no issue with those who want to live polygamy as long as it's between consenting adults.

 

Between consenting adults is between consenting adults.   I'm more along the lines of Brigham Young when first told about polygamy.

[ALarson]

Between consenting adults is between consenting adults.   I'm more along the lines of Brigham Young when first told about polygamy.

Yes, me too

[ALarson]

D&C 132 - "And why did she do it? Because this was the law;"

 

What was the Biblical law of a barren woman? How was she to comply with command to be fruitful?

 

Gal 4:25-27 tells us that Agar was a "bondwoman"... meaning she was given to Abraham to wife under "THE LAW OF MOSES".

How about you just post where in the Bible anyone was commanded by God to live polygamy?   Chapter and verse(s).

Edited August 18, 2015 by ALarson

[ALarson]

Wowsers!

 

As a son of Adam I have also been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. Should I interpret that as a command or even approval to take additional wives or simply plany my seed anywhere I choose for the sake of multiplying? You may want to rethink your argument.

Well, if you follow Zakuska's reasoning, yes, you've been commanded to live polygamy.

[Walden]

Just curious...did you take Institute classes?

 

I took Institute for one semester, before transferring schools to an area where Institute was not available. 

[ttribe]

Well, if you follow Zakuska's reasoning, yes, you've been commanded to live polygamy.

 

I'm in trouble, then, because I'm not interested...at all.

[stemelbow]

This is the heart of the matter for me. I do not believe that Joseph Smith's behavior with women disqualifies him from being a prophet, but believing he was a prophet doesn't require me to accept that what he did was right, either. But I did justify it. I told myself that it must have been OK because he was a prophet of God. But if this had been anyone other than Joseph Smith, there's no way I would have justified it. It finally occurred to me that I couldn't rationalize or justify it, so I stopped doing that. Unfortunately for me, when I stopped rationalizing that one thing, I stopped rationalizing an awful lot of things.

Which is fine and reasonable, I'd say. But I find he who sticks around has just as much invested in his/her integrity.

[jkwilliams]

Which is fine and reasonable, I'd say. But I find he who sticks around has just as much invested in his/her integrity.

 

I am not saying anything about anyone's integrity. I have the utmost respect for those who have wrestled with the same issues I have and reached different conclusions. The problem I've been trying to address is that some on both sides believe they know how honest, faithful people should react to these issues.

Edited August 18, 2015 by jkwilliams

[stemelbow]

I am not saying anything about anyone's integrity. I have the utmost respect for those who have wrestled with the same issues I have and reached different conclusions. The problem I've been trying to address is that some on both sides believe they know how honest, faithful people should react to these issues.

I didn't mean to suggest you were saying anything of the sort, sorry for the confusion. And I appreciate your perspective on what is the problem, as with that, I agree.