Joseph Smith's Polygamy

[Calm]

I was taught Eliza R Snow was one of them, so I knew it was not just widows. I knew the angel story and I must have learned it at church because that wasn't the type of discussions I had with my family (Mom was more doctrinal and looking into connections in others' teachings) so I think I knew about Mary Lightener. I knew about Helen Kimball by college, but don't remember where I learned that.

[jkwilliams]

I was taught Eliza R Snow was one of them, so I knew it was not just widows. I knew the angel story and I must have learned it at church because that wasn't the type of discussions I had with my family (Mom was more doctrinal and looking into connections in others' teachings) so I think I knew about Mary Lightener. I knew about Helen Kimball by college, but don't remember where I learned that.

 

I didn't learn about the details (the angel/sword thing, etc.) until my late 20s, when I was working at the COB and reading in the church history library on my lunch hour.

[Calm]

If I remember I will ask my son if he was taught it at church at all (Canada). I remember talking about it at home with missionaries, but he might not have been there; we read D&C together but don't remember if we made it to the end. Might have explained it when he was 8 and reading the BoM together and hit Jacob.

Edited August 19, 2015 by calmoriah

[Guest]

I used to hear from you once in a while, but then you kind of stopped. Maybe I just missed it.

It was a PM, I stopped the e-mails when I got injured, I was no longer working.

[jkwilliams]

It was a PM, I stopped the e-mails when I got injured, I was no longer working.

 

Well, I don't know how I missed it, but I'm sorry. 

[Guest]

Well, I don't know how I missed it, but I'm sorry.

Don't worry, forgetting or not caring is the state to f the natural woman or man. I have no illusions that friendship was ever the cas. I don't nice posted something...and another poster said, "you have no friens here, just a casual cyber aqantous, with posters". This site has become (for the most part) a place for the disaffected to minimize those that still believe. I joined by invitation as other men were to join a site to discuss women's issue. But my delivery and misspellings so got me uninvited. Often time it seems that when defending the faith, is only welcome with perfect spelling or punctuation. It took some time to find a place that wanted anyone of faith to post. In today's Church Joseph would be unfit as an Apostle or even a Bishop...he would be considered a hayseed. And yet with polygamy, his poor oratory and spelling...despite his weaknesses he built the foundation for a world religion; my religion!

[Okrahomer]

70s and taught it in San Fran area. Not historians, but Grandma talked about her Auntie and we knew it went back to Nauvoo with Mom's family who lived across the street from the Prophet. (Theodore Turley who had three plural wives in Nauvoo).

"My" polygamists were Sessions. I love them for their faithful lives--even (and perhaps because of) the "messy" and sometimes confusing parts.

[jkwilliams]

Don't worry, forgetting or not caring is the state to f the natural woman or man. I have no illusions that friendship was ever the cas. I don't nice posted something...and another poster said, "you have no friens here, just a casual cyber aqantous, with posters". This site has become (for the most part) a place for the disaffected to minimize those that still believe. I joined by invitation as other men were to join a site to discuss women's issue. But my delivery and misspellings so got me uninvited. Often time it seems that when defending the faith, is only welcome with perfect spelling or punctuation. It took some time to find a place that wanted anyone of faith to post. In today's Church Joseph would be unfit as an Apostle or even a Bishop...he would be considered a hayseed. And yet with polygamy, his poor oratory and spelling...despite his weaknesses he built the foundation for a world religion; my religion!

 

Well, you're still my friend, anyway, even if you don't think I'm yours.

[Thinking]

 Genuine question here....Are there people on this board who attended seminary or Aaronic priesthood or Young Women's in the 1980s who were taught that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?

 

I went to seminary from 1977 to 1981. I don't remember any formal lessons about polygamy (I could have been absent or asleep - early morning), but when the subject came up these were the common explanations.

• Joseph did not want to do it but took 2 or 3 wives to comply with the Lord's command.
• So many men were killed from the persecutions that Joseph (and others) took in the widows so they wouldn't be alone.
• The older widows needed to be taken care of by somebody.

I never heard anything about polyandry or teenage brides.

[Teancum]

In Matthew 7, the Saviour warned his disciples sacred things (the deeper mysteries of the kingdom of God) often have to be kept from the knowledge of the world, lest those sacred things be desecrated by the spiritually ignorant and the Church suffer brutal persecution. Before the saints were established in the Rocky Mountains, it was necessary to take measures to keep the deeper Gospel principle of celestial plural marriage under wraps to prevent mockery of the practice and protect the Church from persecution.

 

Well, in spite of attempts to prevent that particular Gospel pearl from being cast before swine, word of the practice eventually got out and the Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother were soon murdered, or. as the Saviour put it, they were "trampled under foot." I wonder why this well-known teaching of Christ -- that sacred pearls should not be cast before swine -- is rarely brought up in discussions where it's said the Church has been "dishonest?" When it comes to a particularly sensitive and even dangerous to practice principle like celestial plural marriage, it only stands to reason the leaders of the Church would have applied the Saviour's warning and tried to keep a sacred but easily misunderstood practice from the knowledge of the world. 

 

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (Matthew 7)

So was Emma one of the swine Joseph needed to hide his practice from?

[Teancum]

Apparently, some people have a rather low opinion of Emma Smith.

Great minds must think alike....heheh...

[Teancum]

There can be no doubt but that the commandment to practice plural marriage was an "Abrahamic" trial by fire that virtually all struggled with, but some struggled with it more than others. And that's only to be expected considering the fact that God was commanding imperfect men and women to practice something that only perfect and holy heavenly beings can accomplish without much soul-searching, tribulation and angst.

Oh sure there is plenty of doubt and certainly a reasonable view that the idea of this being some grand Abrahamic test ( which of its

Is fraught with issues) as simple mentel gyrations, rationalizing....

Edited to add....I know this is a strong post that is apparently offensive to some. However I think the idea that God intentionally does brutal things to us to test our faith is just a bad idea and carried to extremes can be damaging. For a human to purposefully to inflict such a "test" on another as Joseph smith did to Heber Kimball I view as abusive. But to call it tripe was wrong so I changed it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Teancum

[Bobbieaware]

Oh sure there is plenty of doubt and certainly a reasonable view that the idea of this being some grand Abrahamic test ( which of its

Is fraught with issues) is simple mettle gyrations, rationalizing and really a bunch of tripe.

You think virtually everything associated with the Gospel is a bunch of tripe, so am I supposed to be shocked by this? You're about as predictable as they come. There's not even any need for you to respond to anything because I could write your responses for you and get them right every time.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

So was Emma one of the swine Joseph needed to hide his practice from?

The Savior is the one who drew the comparison with spiritually dead and brutish humans to swine. By the very nature of the metaphor, it's unavoidable that someone who exhibits such behavior is always going to end up being compared to swine. If you think the comparison is crass, take it up with the Lord in the resurrection.

[JLHPROF]

So was Emma one of the swine Joseph needed to hide his practice from?

 

Anyone unwilling, unprepared, or unworthy to accept laws and revelations from God would fall into that category.

I think we are all "swine" in one area or another, making light or dismissing the most sacred.

Where Emma fell on the spectrum of "not capable" of accepting the law is up to historians to analyze and God alone to judge.

 

When someone fights a law of God they lose the right to know how the law is being lived by those who do have testimonies.  At least, that's my opinion.

God told Joseph to live polygamy.  Of that I am certain.  Emma wouldn't let him.  Joseph chose to follow God.  She no longer had any right to know.

[Bobbieaware]

Anyone unwilling, unprepared, or unworthy to accept laws and revelations from God would fall into that category.

I think we are all "swine" in one area or another, making light or dismissing the most sacred.

Where Emma fell on the spectrum of "not capable" of accepting the law is up to historians to analyze and God alone to judge.

 

When someone fights a law of God they lose the right to know how the law is being lived by those who do have testimonies.  At least, that's my opinion.

God told Joseph to live polygamy.  Of that I am certain.  Emma wouldn't let him.  Joseph chose to follow God.  She no longer had any right to know.

How true' Absolutely brilliant!

[Teancum]

God commanded Abraham to what?  Multiply and replenish the earth.  Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. 

 

Sounds like God Commanded Abraham to have more than one wife to me.

God commanded Adam and Eve to Multiply and replenish the earth. where are Adam's extra wives?

[Bobbieaware]

God commanded Adam and Eve to Multiply and replenish the earth. where are Adam's extra wives?

The fact that the polygamists Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are numbered among the heros of faith, with Abraham himself even being called the "father of the faithful," renders your protestations weak and ineffectual in the eyes of believing Latter-day Saints. You may as well be shoveling garbage against the incoming tide.

[JLHPROF]

God commanded Adam and Eve to Multiply and replenish the earth. where are Adam's extra wives?

 

Right here -

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/eve-women/7evelilith.html

"According to midrashic literature, Adam's first wife was not Eve but a woman named Lilith, who was created in the first Genesis account. Only when Lilith rebelled and abandoned Adam did God create Eve, in the second account, as a replacement."

 

Just think of Emma as Joseph's Lilith.  Problem solved?

 

Oh, and here too:

"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him." 

Brigham Young - JD 1:50

[Teancum]

You think virtually everything associated with the Gospel is a bunch of tripe, so am I supposed to be shocked by this? You're about as predictable as they come. There's not even any need for you to respond to anything because I could write your responses for you and get them right every time.

Give it a rest Bobbieware. Your posts are as predictible as you say mine are and are often some sort of testimony that because you know the Book of Mormom is true then everything Joseph Smith did is fine. You seem unable to put yourself in someone else's shoes as was demonstrated in your post earlier in this thread when I responded to anothe poster that current offshoot polygamist groups in the LDS tradition believe they aspire right and have revelation. You went on about how they comply have to be wrong and how it was clear 19th century polygamy was never meant to be long term because the church would not have grown. The hubris of your position as well as the number of back reading assumptions you made was simply amazing. Yet I decided not to comment till now and that only because of your post above. Certainly Brigham Young and his comtemporaries did not view polygamy as short term. You simply were wrong. An FLDS follower believes you are following currently a false prophet.

As to my post that seems to bother so much....Teddieware said there was no doubt that polygamy was a big Abrahamic test, Well I don't believe God, if there is a God is so cruel to intentionally test his creations in such a way. So yes there is reason to doubt it and yes to justify some of Smith's behavior like asking a man to give his wife up just to see if he is faithful is awful and abusive. Who was Joseph Smith to do such a thing? Why demand such obedience from a fellow man to his power position ? Yes I do have a problem with that as well as passing it off as ok due to some way God is testing us.

If you don't like my posts don't read them. I am not twisting your arm. If you don't like me and what I say ignore me. The interesting thing is I often don't agree with you but I actually can and so respect your own views and where you are at and why. apparently you can't do the same for others.

Last of all i,don't view everything associated with the LDS gospel as tripe. There is much I quite like. So once again you are blatantly wrong about me and what I think.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Teancum

[Teancum]

The Savior is the one who drew the comparison with spiritually dead and brutish humans to swine. By the very nature of the metaphor, it's unavoidable that someone who exhibits such behavior is always going to end up being compared to swine. If you think the comparison is crass, take it up with the Lord in the resurrection.

The poster said Joseph Smith kept polygamy hidden and lied about it because it would be casting Pearl's before swine. Since Joseph lied to Emma I asked if she was a swine. Maybe getting the context straight before you rant at me might be useful.

[Teancum]

Anyone unwilling, unprepared, or unworthy to accept laws and revelations from God would fall into that category.

I think we are all "swine" in one area or another, making light or dismissing the most sacred.

Where Emma fell on the spectrum of "not capable" of accepting the law is up to historians to analyze and God alone to judge.

When someone fights a law of God they lose the right to know how the law is being lived by those who do have testimonies. At least, that's my opinion.

God told Joseph to live polygamy. Of that I am certain. Emma wouldn't let him. Joseph chose to follow God. She no longer had any right to know.

I certainly am glad I don't want to go by such an "ethic" when making decisions. This is a pretty dangerous moral compass I think. Edited August 19, 2015 by Teancum

[Teancum]

Right here -http://witcombe.sbc.edu/eve-women/7evelilith.html

"According to midrashic literature, Adam's first wife was not Eve but a woman named Lilith, who was created in the first Genesis account. Only when Lilith rebelled and abandoned Adam did God create Eve, in the second account, as a replacement."

 

Just think of Emma as Joseph's Lilith.  Problem solved?

 

Oh, and here too:

"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him." 

Brigham Young - JD 1:50

And BY thought Adam was our God as well....

You may buy that but I doubt many LDS believers here do.

[JLHPROF]

And BY thought Adam was our God as well....

You may buy that but I doubt many LDS believers here do.

 

Religion is always a matter of faith, unless the veil has parted and revealed certainty on an issue to you.

If you want certainty, religion is not where you find it.

 

You have no faith in Joseph's claims that D&C 132 came from God.  I have faith that Joseph was telling the truth when he revealed that principle.

Unless God parts the veil and tells us one way or another all either of us can do is exercise our faith in our personal beliefs.

[Teancum]

Religion is always a matter of faith, unless the veil has parted and revealed certainty on an issue to you.

If you want certainty, religion is not where you find it.

 

You have no faith in Joseph's claims that D&C 132 came from God.  I have faith that Joseph was telling the truth when he revealed that principle.

Unless God parts the veil and tells us one way or another all either of us can do is exercise our faith in our personal beliefs.

I think my position is less faith based than you think. Anyone can make any claim one wants and say all you have to do is have faith. I guess I will leave it at that for now.

But I have no problem if your faith tells you it is good and right. If that works for you great. Same with Adam God though that one could get you in trouble with the current leadership,if you preach it.