Dehlin, Reel, And Other Do-Gooders Asking For Money To Do...good.

[Bob Crockett]

If he is a wolf he has no teeth. Plus, I must observe, he is not anonymous and those who criticize him anonymously violate one or two references in Proverbs I can think of.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[ttribe]

The warning flag is already there plain as day. I feel it the responsibility of members to spot a wolf and cry out. I am crying out, that is all.

Nonsense. You said he is going "to hell." That's not a warning, that's a (faulty) judgment.

[Mormonmaniac]

Nonsense. You said he is going "to hell." That's not a warning, that's a (faulty) judgment.

We're all entitled to our own opinions. I have expressed mine.

[sjdawg]

“Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the Welfare of Zion…. "  2 Ne. 26:29.

 

I have noticed that websites and organizations purporting to lend a hand to the "outcast and downtrodden" among us also ask for donations and sell products.  The explanation is that their charitable "service" costs money.  Dehlin for example made a nice little wage, paying his graduate school and "living" costs.  Bill Reel is another, who asks for donations and even has a "products" page where he sells his own work. http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/products/

 

I think they would contend that they are seeking Zion’s welfare…trying to help and lift.  But then, isn’t it also true that, according to Matthew 6:24, you “cannot serve both God and mammon?”  How are these people doing anything but serving mammon, in the name of God no less, where money is passing hands?  Is the fact that their self-proclaimed poverty or proffer that they do not make “much” really a defense?  Does it matter?

 

Personally, I stay away from anyone using the "compassionate insider" persona that has a shopping card and a credit card slide.  If you want to be a servant of compassion, do your home teaching, say I. 

 

At what point does this "service" cross the line to priestcraft.  Or is there even a line to cross?  Is this not also approaching blasphemy?

I assume the General Authorities that write books don't profit off selling them to LDS Church followers?

[Teancum]

Folks like Bill worry me more than anyone. Let me explain why. First- they are in a high leadership position with an exacting stewardship. Second- they have established their voice to a large audience. Third- they have questioned the validity of the prophets.

Now, when you combine those three it sets for a big prideful downfall into apostacy. Not only that but they drag so many with them to also question the prophets. If he really is a bishop, he has no business questioning the authority of the church on important issues let alone posting his voice all over the world as a voice of questioning dissent. There is a proper way to question the church and it's history and beliefs. His method is like a wolf set out to devour lost sheep. I am sorry if I am blunt but I have seen this before and it doesn't end well.

What is the proper way to question the church and its history?

Why does the LDS church need some special dispensation, method or way to ask question about it, challenge what the LDS leaders say or to attempt open discussions about it?

Are there any other organizations you are part of that you would grant such special treatment to an such things?

[Teancum]

The warning flag is already there plain as day. I feel it the responsibility of members to spot a wolf and cry out. I am crying out, that is all.

I think this demonstrates the group mind think that is so common in the LDS culture as well as other conservative religious groups or other such organizations.

[Calm]

But not everyone cries wolf, in fact in my experience a very small percentage actuallydoes this...so how does it demonstrate "group think" as opposed to just someone overreacting to someone else with whom they vehemently disagree?

Edited August 6, 2015 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

I wish some years in the past I said something like, "Bill's name will be had for good and evil in this world". It could have been my first prophecy kinda like Joseph's.

[jkwilliams]

But not everyone cries wolf, in fact in my experience a very small percentage actuallydoes this...so how does it demonstrate "group think" as opposed to just someone overreacting to someone else with whom they vehemently disagree?

An us-vs-them mentality is pretty common, I think, and that's how I see Mormonmaniac's comments. It's common among ex-Mormons, too. It's not enough to see our opponents as "enemies," but they have to be evil, sinister types whose every flaw must be magnified and attack. Dan Peterson once mentioned that someone posted on RfM about Mormons slurping their soup, and last year several people here suggested that an ex-Mormon could not be trusted to share his or her thoughts about the process of leaving and its effects on loved ones.

I don't know if you remember a poster who went by "Sanpete" back in the old FAIR board days. I was still very much a believing, active member of the LDS church, and he wasn't. I learned from him that there are good people on all sides of most issues, including Mormonism. In fact, I would say most people I've met here and on other boards are good, sincere, honest people who simply disagree.

[stemelbow]

But not everyone cries wolf, in fact in my experience a very small percentage actuallydoes this...so how does it demonstrate "group think" as opposed to just someone overreacting to someone else with whom they vehemently disagree?

I think there are a number in the Church who feel like they are being scrutinized by the majority, perhaps. I know I feel it at times. That I'm looked on with skepticism by Church members. The calling out probably does only come from a few, but when the calling out happens it often resonates with others. But it can be ugly stuff. What if he/she who is called out is not a wolf? What if what he/she is doing is anti-wolf? the calling out only serves to shoot down and intimidate.

[Gray]

We're all entitled to our own opinions. I have expressed mine.

 

Are you all concerned about this given what's taught in Matt 7:2?

[Mormonmaniac]

What is the proper way to question the church and its history?

Why does the LDS church need some special dispensation, method or way to ask question about it, challenge what the LDS leaders say or to attempt open discussions about it?

Are there any other organizations you are part of that you would grant such special treatment to an such things?

The proper way to question the church is to be humble, go to local leaders and start an honest inquiry. But when one comes right out and posts all over the www how wrong the church is it sounds more anti than being honest and humble.

[6EQUJ5]

Folks like Bill worry me more than anyone. Let me explain why. First- they are in a high leadership position with an exacting stewardship. Second- they have established their voice to a large audience. Third- they have questioned the validity of the prophets.

 

 

This is a distrubing trend.  Recently the so-called "Kiwi Mormon" gave the pulpit to someone who claims to be a high councilor and former Bishop.  This "leader" then goes on to denigrate the prophets.

 

Interesting times.

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon/2014/02/a-former-bishops-doctrinal-dilemmas/?ref_widget=popular&ref_blog=enigmaticmirror&ref_post=hamblin-34-from-smoot

 

 

Our first Joseph Fielding Smith lesson for 2014 for instance included a discussion about the first vision being our resounding witness of God and Jesus Christ as separate individuals. But after a careful reading of the new source material it would appear that the First Vision account as we have come to know it, was virtually unheard of for the first decade of the Church’s existence. What we now regard as pivotal to our claim to divine mandate was absent for the first members. Leaving many questions over what those founding Mormons actually believed about the nature of the Godhead, and what caused them to join the church?

As a former Bishop I am perplexed. I have repeated stories to my ward to justify particular church practices. I have given the hard line on church policies and doctrines and have held people accountable. As recently as June I reasoned with a friend that polygamy was needed because there were so many more women than men at the time, an argument that the polygamy essay seems now to repudiate.

 

[jkwilliams]

This is a distrubing trend.  Recently the so-called "Kiwi Mormon" gave the pulpit to someone who claims to be a high councilor and former Bishop.  This "leader" then goes on to denigrate the prophets.

 

Interesting times.

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon/2014/02/a-former-bishops-doctrinal-dilemmas/?ref_widget=popular&ref_blog=enigmaticmirror&ref_post=hamblin-34-from-smoot

How does that quote "denigrate the prophets"? This bishop has discovered what a lot of people have: the history of the church that was presented for generations isn't necessarily accurate, and the reality is messier and more complicated. Such a realization is troubling to him and many others. Isn't it better to help such people resolve these troubling issues than to dismiss them as hostile to the prophets? If people want help working through these issues, I'm always willing to lend a hand, but I doubt you'd appreciate the results.   

[Tacenda]

Last night while reading a few posts on FB, a friend who is LDS "liked" this article put out by LDS Meridian... http://ldsmag.com/letter-to-a-former-missionary-companion-on-the-seer-stone/. One comment said the article was pretty much a wolf in sheep's clothing. They didn't believe there really was a stone used to translate. He, it was a he, was adament. I might copy it to show. I probably would have felt the same way in my TBM mindset a few years ago. Anyway, just thought it funny that an apologist is a wolf in sheep's clothing. ETA: Or maybe it was this article...http://ldsmag.com/the-church-shows-joseph-smiths-seer-stone-for-the-first-time-five-things-to-know-about-the-seer-stone/

Edited August 6, 2015 by Tacenda

[jkwilliams]

Last night while reading a few posts on FB a friend who is LDS "liked" this article put out by LDS Meridian... http://ldsmag.com/letter-to-a-former-missionary-companion-on-the-seer-stone/. One comment said the article was pretty much a wolf in sheep's clothing. They didn't believe there really was a stone used to translate. He, it was a he, was adament. I might copy it to show. I probably would have felt the same way in my TBM mindset a few years ago. Anyway, just thought it funny that an apologist is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Reminds me of when Dan Peterson was on that PBS show about Mormonism and talked about the use of the seer stone in the translation. A lot of people attacked him as an anti-Mormon. Who knew that there were wolves in such high places at BYU?

[Avatar4321]

I don't know who Bill Reel is and why the kerfuffle is about him lately, is he ICE-T's rapper cousin or something?

Neither do I.I asked on the last thread and was ignored

[jkwilliams]

Neither do I.I asked on the last thread and was ignored

He posts here as DBMormon.

[Avatar4321]

Folks like Bill worry me more than anyone. Let me explain why. First- they are in a high leadership position with an exacting stewardship. Second- they have established their voice to a large audience. Third- they have questioned the validity of the prophets.

Now, when you combine those three it sets for a big prideful downfall into apostacy. Not only that but they drag so many with them to also question the prophets. If he really is a bishop, he has no business questioning the authority of the church on important issues let alone posting his voice all over the world as a voice of questioning dissent. There is a proper way to question the church and it's history and beliefs. His method is like a wolf set out to devour lost sheep. I am sorry if I am blunt but I have seen this before and it doesn't end well.

Why do people most haven't heard of worry you?

[Avatar4321]

He posts here as DBMormon.

Should have guessed that considering the way he was acting in the last thread.

Not sure what the big hoopla is about

[jkwilliams]

Should have guessed that considering the way he was acting in the last thread.

Not sure what the big hoopla is about

He's evil, duh.

[Avatar4321]

Aren't we all evil and in need of the atonement of Christ to.overcome our natural evil and choose to be good?

[jkwilliams]

Aren't we all evil and in need of the atonement of Christ to.overcome our natural evil and choose to be good?

Some of us are more evil than others.

[Avatar4321]

Well stop being evil and come to Christ and yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit

[jkwilliams]

Well stop being evil and come to Christ and yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit

Yeah, but you can't be a wolf in sheep's clothing if you do that.