Dehlin, Reel, And Other Do-Gooders Asking For Money To Do...good.

[Teancum]

“Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the Welfare of Zion…. "  2 Ne. 26:29.

 

I have noticed that websites and organizations purporting to lend a hand to the "outcast and downtrodden" among us also ask for donations and sell products.  The explanation is that their charitable "service" costs money.  Dehlin for example made a nice little wage, paying his graduate school and "living" costs.  Bill Reel is another, who asks for donations and even has a "products" page where he sells his own work. http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/products/

 

I think they would contend that they are seeking Zion’s welfare…trying to help and lift.  But then, isn’t it also true that, according to Matthew 6:24, you “cannot serve both God and mammon?”  How are these people doing anything but serving mammon, in the name of God no less, where money is passing hands?  Is the fact that their self-proclaimed poverty or proffer that they do not make “much” really a defense?  Does it matter?

 

Personally, I stay away from anyone using the "compassionate insider" persona that has a shopping card and a credit card slide.  If you want to be a servant of compassion, do your home teaching, say I. 

 

At what point does this "service" cross the line to priestcraft.  Or is there even a line to cross?  Is this not also approaching blasphemy?

 

 

Interesting observation. Do you apply this to the LDS Church and its myriad of business ventures including its very expensive upscale mall and its potential real estate development project in Florida that could build a community of over 500,000 people?

[Teancum]

Thanks for the comments.  Let me clarify a few things:

 

I am speaking specifically to people that market their websites to vulnerable types of people...the abused, the disaffected, etc.

  One could argue that the faithful are vulnerable to a variety of faith promoting products from Deseret Book, GAs writers and other such material because of well... their faith.

[rockpond]

Thanks for the comments.  Let me clarify a few things:

 

I am speaking specifically to people that market their websites to vulnerable types of people...the abused, the disaffected, etc. Now, I don't doubt that many people truly want to help others, but there is also a great risk that they prey on susceptible persons.  On its face, their "service" is in direct conflict with their personal gain.  For example, Bill Reel's website states that it exists to "strengthening feeble knees and lifting hands that hang."  I guess we should ask, who's arms and knees is he trying to help?  His own?  I think Reel's head got big after he was made a Bishop, got a little air time with John Dehlin, and thought "I can do this too!"  And now, he's of the mind that a "personal visit from Bill" is marketable.  Gag!

 

I think John Dehlin's is an extremely dangerous case.  If I correctly recall, Dehlin was getting a master's degree is psychology.  So, here you have a mental health professional that talks about the mental health challenges of church separation, abuse, blah, blah.  He thereby created a new market for his unique services.  And then, marketing cruises for couples therapy and everything else to boot.  Exceptionally crafty, Dehlin is.  And, exceptionally dangerous.

I hope everyone can see why Deseret Book isn't even in the same discussion.  In full disclosure, I really am not a fan of the Mormon media market.  But we are not talking about general audience marketing.  My concern is where "compassionate insiders" market to susceptible, and often legitimate victims that are desperately looking for solutions.  If you tell them what they want to hear, human nature says that they'll pay...voluntarily.

 

You seem to be stretching for a reason to differentiate between Dehlin & Reel and thousands of others in the Mormon media market who either solicit donations, charge for what they produce, or get paid a stipend/salary.

 

All of them... from podcasters to authors, bookstores to apologists... are reaching out to someone in need of something.

 

FAIRMormon solicits donations on their homepage -- will you also accuse them of priestcraft?

[Gray]

Dehlin, Reel, etc. the slippery slope into hell. It starts out innocent but then pride kicks in and one become quite certain they are right and the church is wrong. Then they start applauding fallen Mormons and taking their sides more frequently. Then slowly, they come up against in arms of the main principles of the church (such as women and the priesthood, racism, homosexuality, etc) and then its war. On top of this they still want to voice opposition and BE HEARD and get money to pay for their squackings. Ah...the slippery slope into hell.

 

Are people who come to different conclusions than you guilty of pride? 

[ERayR]

Are people who come to different conclusions than you guilty of pride? 

 

That's what somebody on this board told me.

Edited August 5, 2015 by ERayR

[rockpond]

Dehlin I am familiar with to a small degree.  For me, this scripture addresses Dehlin; he set up a priestcraft, continues to practice it, and has no interest in the welfare of Zion.

 

That's your opinion... that he has no interest in the welfare of Zion.  I believe he and many others would disagree with you.  I do.

[Bob Crockett]

Sorry if this point has already been made, but "priestcraft" requires the activity to be something related to or requiring authority from God. So if I charged money for a baby blessing that could raise a question. But even then I would be loath to jump to the conclusion of priestcraft without knowing all the facts and intentions. Church Patriachs in the early days used to charge a travel fee when they went to give blessings, but I wouldn't call that priestcraft.

 

All of this gets to the point that what Dehlin, Reel, DB, Especially For Youth, MoTab, and many others do cannot amount to priestcraft. Yes, they all may at times charge for their services, but those services - podcasts, books, retreats, concerts - are not something that requires divine authority.

Is it not priestcraft to (1) claim endorsement by general and local authorities, (2) charge money and (3) direct your ministry to "informing" stake presidents and bishops of church error (or apostolic error), like 100% tithing, evolution, the date of Jesus' birth and the other topics Bill raises in scatter-shot fashion with many posts?  Seems to fit within your definition above.

 

I don't give a hoot about priestcraft, really.  Let him make all the bucks he can make off the smart and gullible.  (Even if he's making little money, there's the Freudian psychic benefits he's after, as am I for just making this post.)   I'm no judge.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[Buckeye]

Is it not priestcraft to (1) claim endorsement by general and local authorities, (2) charge money and (3) direct your ministry to "informing" stake presidents and bishops of church error (or apostolic error), like 100% tithing, evolution, the date of Jesus' birth and the other topics Bill raises in scatter-shot fashion with many posts?  Seems to fit within your definition above.

 

I don't give a hoot about priestcraft, really.  Let him make all the bucks he can make off the smart and gullible.  (Even if he's making little money, there's the Freudian psychic benefits he's after, as am I for just making this post.)   I'm no judge.

 

Bob, you're either judging or not. Take a stand.

 

For the record, I've been in a stake meeting where Bill presented. He did nothing of the sort you describe. The entire time was spent discussing how to help members who struggle with historical issues. All his materials were given away free and were centered around helping members rather than stoking doubt. You're just way off here, Bob.

 

Even if your gross mischaracterization were correct, I would still not label that as priestcraft, as it does not amount to exchanging money for a priesthood function.

[Bob Crockett]

Bob, you're either judging or not. Take a stand.

 

For the record, I've been in a stake meeting where Bill presented. He did nothing of the sort you describe. The entire time was spent discussing how to help members who struggle with historical issues. All his materials were given away free and were centered around helping members rather than stoking doubt. You're just way off here, Bob.

 

Even if your gross mischaracterization were correct, I would still not label that as priestcraft, as it does not amount to exchanging money for a priesthood function.

I judge not.  But I don't see my post as a mischararacterization.  But, I withdraw it.  Don't get bent out of shape with me.  I say to Bill - hey, do it and if it improves things around here have joy in what you do.  

 

My grandfather received a fee as a patriarch to pay for a stenographer.  He didn't travel.   I don't think that is as you have characterized it but I have never heard of paying a fee for a patriarch's travel expenses. 

Edited August 5, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[Buckeye]

I judge not.  But I don't see my post as a mischararacterization.  If it is, then I withdraw it.

 

I can see your beef with his podcasts and the issues discussed there (though I don't share it). But that's entirely different from the work he does within the church. At the meetings I've been to he never mentions his podcast or offers any products - except maybe to say that Bushman's RSR is a good general source or that Hales' polygamy series is the most complete.

[Robert F. Smith]

I make about $12 a month selling my book, so priestcraft isn't always that lucrative. 

So, you are John K. Williams, author of Heaven Up Here (Amazon eBook, 2011), with preview at http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Up-Here-John-Williams-ebook/dp/B005WYQ7SI , which appears to be a charming and meaningful book.  You write well, provide a service, and should be compensated.  One female RM commented on your book: 

 

I read almost all of this book in one late-night sitting. I got up the next morning and finished it. I was pulled in somewhat by the personal identification I made with it, but mainly because of the crystalline story-telling. It just kept pulling me along, but in such a limpid, natural fashion, that I didn't even realize how late it was. That's for the literary side of it--it's beautifully written.

From a content perspective, the book is one of the few (if not the only) published accounts of missionary experience that I have read that is absolutely spot-on. I was out on my mission to another South American country at the same time John Williams was out. Being an American plopped down (with very little real preparation) into those fragile political situations during the Reagan years is something that I've never seen described. Williams evokes it without making a big deal of it. I was plunged right back into that affect in a really authentic and pure way.

 

 She says more, but we get the picture.  You deserve to be more widely read, even though PacMan may take umbrage.

[jkwilliams]

So, you are John K. Williams, author of Heaven Up Here (Amazon eBook, 2011), with preview at http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Up-Here-John-Williams-ebook/dp/B005WYQ7SI , which appears to be a charming and meaningful book.  You write well, provide a service, and should be compensated.  One female RM commented on your book: 

 

I read almost all of this book in one late-night sitting. I got up the next morning and finished it. I was pulled in somewhat by the personal identification I made with it, but mainly because of the crystalline story-telling. It just kept pulling me along, but in such a limpid, natural fashion, that I didn't even realize how late it was. That's for the literary side of it--it's beautifully written.

From a content perspective, the book is one of the few (if not the only) published accounts of missionary experience that I have read that is absolutely spot-on. I was out on my mission to another South American country at the same time John Williams was out. Being an American plopped down (with very little real preparation) into those fragile political situations during the Reagan years is something that I've never seen described. Williams evokes it without making a big deal of it. I was plunged right back into that affect in a really authentic and pure way.

 

 She says more, but we get the picture.  You deserve to be more widely read, even though PacMan may take umbrage.

Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate that.

[Jeanne]

Okay,,.OKay...all.I did was read the title of the thread.  Just got home from work.  So I thought about starting a thread like this..called the LDS church wants money so that they can do good.  

 

Nuf said.

 

Now..I will go back at read everything and hope that I have really misunderstood.

[Bob Crockett]

I can see your beef with his podcasts and the issues discussed there (though I don't share it). But that's entirely different from the work he does within the church. At the meetings I've been to he never mentions his podcast or offers any products - except maybe to say that Bushman's RSR is a good general source or that Hales' polygamy series is the most complete.

What beefs?  In the past, months ago, I criticized him on a number of substantive fronts but that was some time ago and I had to stop as he kept reporting my posts and I was on the verge of being evicted.  He's different in his podcasts than he is as a board poster.  Have I criticized his podcasts here?  No.  I think they are entertaining and useful.

[Jeanne]

Is it any kind of priestcraft if Deseret Book sells a replica of the Seer Stone?  Already even??  I don't know whether to laugh or cry.  But hey, for a $199 bucks why not?

[Scott Lloyd]

Is it any kind of priestcraft if Deseret Book sells a replica of the Seer Stone?  Already even??  I don't know whether to laugh or cry.  But hey, for a $199 bucks why not?

Can you provide an authoritative reference that Deseret Book really is selling such a thing?

 

I just checked Google. I've seen some chatter on anti-Mormon and apostate sites, and I saw what appears to be a bogus Deseret Book web page, meant to mock.

 

But so far, I haven't seen what seems to me to be genuine advertising from Deseret Book for something like this. Am I missing something? A link would be nice.

 

And yes, this is a CFR.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

I just went to Deseret Book's home page and typed in "seer stone" as a search term. A bunch of books popped up, but no souvenir or replica or whatever it be.

 

Still wondering about this. Can anybody help Jeanne out?

 

Seems to me that for somebody with a modicum of computer or Photoshop capability, it would be fairly easy to fake something like this.

 

I'll keep looking, but this is appearing more and more doubtful.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

Can you provide an authoritative reference that Deseret Book really is selling such a thing?

 

I just checked Google. I've seen some chatter on anti-Mormon and apostate sites, and I saw what appears to be a bogus Deseret Book site, meant to mock.

 

But so far, I haven't seen what seems to me to be genuine advertising from Deseret Book. Am I missing something? A link would be nice.

 

And yes, this is a CFR.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

I just went to Deseret Book's home page and typed in "seer stone" as a search term. A bunch of books popped up, but no souvenir or replica or whatever it be.

 

Still wondering about this. Can anybody help Jeanne out?

 

Seems to me that for somebody with a modicum of computer or Photoshop capability, it would be fairly easy to fake something like this.

 

I'll keep looking, but this is appearing more and more doubtful.

 

Even IF this were true it would not be priest-craft.  And no, I don't think Dehlin or Reel are doing priest-craft.

[Scott Lloyd]

Even IF this were true it would not be priest-craft.

It would be in questionable taste at least.

 

But let's establish whether or not it's factual before we start to discuss whether it's proper.

 

How are you coming with that CFR, Jeanne?

[canard78]

Ah that is question isn't it? When one rides on the edge it is not hard to slip over.

I agree. I'm disgusted that the Ensign charges a subscription. Priestcraft! And as for Janice Kap Perry selling her religious song and sheet music for actual money. Priestesscraft!!!

(Double standard??)

[rockpond]

I gotta just point out... this is two threads started on Bill Reel in as many days.  I guess that means Bill is making quite an impact.  Good for him!

 

He's obviously not a seasoned broadcasting professional but he has produced some great work.  Thoughtful, insightful, often inspiring.

 

Keep it up DBMormon!  Nice to see you getting more publicity here.

[ERayR]

I agree. I'm disgusted that the Ensign charges a subscription. Priestcraft! And as for Janice Kap Perry selling her religious song and sheet music for actual money. Priestesscraft!!!

(Double standard??)

 

You misunderstand.  I was not suggesting anyone was involved in priest-craft.  In fact I don't think they are.  What I did say is that when one walks on the cliff side of the path it is easier to fall.

[bluebell]

Not so much.  If we go back to the scripture,

 

“Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the Welfare of Zion…. "  2 Ne. 26:29.

 

I don't see how you get selling salvation out of that scripture.  Are you referring to another scriptural reference or something else? 

 

What I see this saying that those individuals who set themselves up as "knowing" and, more importantly, as someone that should be listened to and their motivation is to get gain.  Defining gain seems first and foremost financially, but I am sure this group could define it in additional methods and forms also.  Further, these individuals like to be praised of men; it is important to them. 

 

The vital phrase is that they are those who do not seek the welfare of Zion. 

 

Dehlin I am familiar with to a small degree.  For me, this scripture addresses Dehlin; he set up a priestcraft, continues to practice it, and has no interest in the welfare of Zion.  The other fellow I just don't know anything about, but this scripture is not rocket science, it is not difficult to understand, or complex.  It is simple and straightforward and attempting to cloud the issue or evade applying the full meaning does not result in excluding those that are stung by the truthfulness of the scripture.  

 

That's a hard judgement to make.  I'm guessing that even Dehlin believes that he seeks the welfare of Zion (if not the kingdom, then that of the people in it at least).  

[Scott Lloyd]

Can you provide an authoritative reference that Deseret Book really is selling such a thing?

 

I just checked Google. I've seen some chatter on anti-Mormon and apostate sites, and I saw what appears to be a bogus Deseret Book web page, meant to mock.

 

But so far, I haven't seen what seems to me to be genuine advertising from Deseret Book for something like this. Am I missing something? A link would be nice.

 

And yes, this is a CFR.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

I just went to Deseret Book's home page and typed in "seer stone" as a search term. A bunch of books popped up, but no souvenir or replica or whatever it be.

 

Still wondering about this. Can anybody help Jeanne out?

 

Seems to me that for somebody with a modicum of computer or Photoshop capability, it would be fairly easy to fake something like this.

 

I'll keep looking, but this is appearing more and more doubtful.

So I still haven't found anything authentic from Deseret Book advertising a replica seer stone.

 

But I did take a moment to glance at some of the chatter on the RfM website (exMormon.org). Even some of the good folks there have spotted this as a fake.

 

"That's a Photoshop, and not even a good one at that," says one.

 

"Uh... That's PhotoShop there. Until somebody can point me to a link at deseret book's web site indicating availability, I'm pretty sure somebody's just trolling you," says another.

 

Still, I'll wait to see whether Jeanne can answer the CFR or, alternatively, admit that she has been duped.

[ttribe]

Dehlin, Reel, etc. the slippery slope into hell. It starts out innocent but then pride kicks in and one become quite certain they are right and the church is wrong. Then they start applauding fallen Mormons and taking their sides more frequently. Then slowly, they come up against in arms of the main principles of the church (such as women and the priesthood, racism, homosexuality, etc) and then its war. On top of this they still want to voice opposition and BE HEARD and get money to pay for their squackings. Ah...the slippery slope into hell.

 

So, are you contending that Dehlin and Reel are going to hell?

Edited August 5, 2015 by ttribe

[rockpond]

So, are you contending that Dehlin and Reel are going to hell?

 

I'm not sure but I'm more concerned that MormonManiac identifies the "main principles of the church" as women and the priesthood, racism, homosexuality.