rockpond Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Folks like Bill worry me more than anyone. Let me explain why. First- they are in a high leadership position with an exacting stewardship. Second- they have established their voice to a large audience. Third- they have questioned the validity of the prophets.Now, when you combine those three it sets for a big prideful downfall into apostacy. Not only that but they drag so many with them to also question the prophets. If he really is a bishop, he has no business questioning the authority of the church on important issues let alone posting his voice all over the world as a voice of questioning dissent. There is a proper way to question the church and it's history and beliefs. His method is like a wolf set out to devour lost sheep. I am sorry if I am blunt but I have seen this before and it doesn't end well. CFR that Bill Reel has questioned the validity of the prophets or that he has questioned the authority of the church. Which of Bill's podcasts have you listened to in their entirety? 2
rockpond Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 The proper way to question the church is to be humble, go to local leaders and start an honest inquiry. But when one comes right out and posts all over the www how wrong the church is it sounds more anti than being honest and humble. If you are going to continue making accusations against Bill you need to provide some support. Quote what he has said that is incorrect otherwise what you are doing is libel, not a "voice of warning". 1
Scott Lloyd Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) Give it time, they sold a replica of the Liahona didn't they? https://deseretbook.com/p/liahona-latter-day-designs-47474?taxon_id=10013&variant_id=55501Ah, the old "I wouldn't put it past 'em" attack.Kind of a combination of the straw man and ad hominem fallacies Edited August 6, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 1
jkwilliams Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Ah, the old "I wouldn't put it past 'em" attack. Kind of a combination of the straw man and ad hominem fallacies If enough people wanted to buy a replica of the stone, I don't see anything wrong with Deseret Book making and selling them. You can buy a replica of Joseph Smith's Jupiter talisman on ebay, so why not a replica of the seer stone? 4
ttribe Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 If enough people wanted to buy a replica of the stone, I don't see anything wrong with Deseret Book making and selling them. You can buy a replica of Joseph Smith's Jupiter talisman on ebay, so why not a replica of the seer stone? It's kind of a cool looking rock; not at all what I pictured in my head. If it was a brownie, I'm pretty sure it would be very yummy as well. 1
CA Steve Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 If enough people wanted to buy a replica of the stone, I don't see anything wrong with Deseret Book making and selling them. You can buy a replica of Joseph Smith's Jupiter talisman on ebay, so why not a replica of the seer stone?Well I am sure the "critics" would complain if Deseret Book didn't include a hat when they sold the stone. 1
jkwilliams Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) Well I am sure the "critics" would complain if Deseret Book didn't include a hat when they sold the stone. My son just asked me why I'm laughing. In all seriousness, though, people like to have tangible connections to the past, especially when you're talking about religious history. Think, for example, of how much an 1830 copy of the Book of Mormon is now worth and how such "relics" (for want of a better word) are displayed and revered. I seem to recall that Deseret Book sells replicas of the 1830 Book of Mormon, and I've seen copies in prominent places in members' houses. I can imagine some enterprising individual making replicas of the seer stone for an LDS market. Why would that be a problem? Edited August 6, 2015 by jkwilliams
HappyJackWagon Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Ah, the old "I wouldn't put it past 'em" attack.Kind of a combination of the straw man and ad hominem fallaciesYou seem very disturbed by the idea that someone (DB, seagull etc) would make a replica of the seer stone. Not sure why suggesting this possibility would be an attack. What would be wrong with it? I have a replica of the Liberty Jail Key in a shadow box. I also have a replica of the Nauvoo Star window and Sunstone. I've seen replicas of the golden plates. Are these replicas inappropriate for some reason or is it only replicating the seer stone that would be a problem? Again, I'm not sure why it would be a bad thing. 2
Avatar4321 Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Yeah, but you can't be a wolf in sheep's clothing if you do that.Then become a sheep in wolves clothing.
sethpayne Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) You seem very disturbed by the idea that someone (DB, seagull etc) would make a replica of the seer stone. Not sure why suggesting this possibility would be an attack. What would be wrong with it? I have a replica of the Liberty Jail Key in a shadow box. I also have a replica of the Nauvoo Star window and Sunstone. I've seen replicas of the golden plates. Are these replicas inappropriate for some reason or is it only replicating the seer stone that would be a problem? Again, I'm not sure why it would be a bad thing. My Buddhist wife asked me yesterday about the seer stone after she saw an article online about it. She actually mentioned that it would make a pretty cool display piece. We've already got a Sunstone and a Jupiter Talisman in my office. I'd love a seer stone replica. Edited August 6, 2015 by sethpayne
jkwilliams Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Then become a sheep in wolves clothing. But that's not nearly as fun.
sethpayne Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 But that's not nearly as fun. What's the most fun is when people think you are a wolf and you end up being assigned as their home teacher.
jkwilliams Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 What's the most fun is when people think you are a wolf and you end up being assigned as their home teacher. We have the missionaries over for dinner 2 or 3 times a month, and it's always obvious when someone in the ward has filled them in about me. One visit they're relaxed, enjoying the conversation, and the next time they are very cautious about what they say and how they say it. I treat them the same, no matter what, but it is slightly humorous to see the change.
stemelbow Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 What's the most fun is when people think you are a wolf and you end up being assigned as their home teacher. That is fun. In my experience they always come around to loving you. It's also cool when your bishop feels like he's unmasked you so tells you you aren't his bro in the gospel anymore, so your in trouble. He won't give you any callings because of his suspicion and won't talk to you for months. That happened a few years ago to me. Now, as it's worked out, he looks up to me, somehow. I realize it's life to make it work even when people have hurt feelings or are suspicious of you. I once worried about others who were suspicious and treated them back with equal suspicion.
Scott Lloyd Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 You seem very disturbed by the idea that someone (DB, seagull etc) would make a replica of the seer stone. Not sure why suggesting this possibility would be an attack. What would be wrong with it? I have a replica of the Liberty Jail Key in a shadow box. I also have a replica of the Nauvoo Star window and Sunstone. I've seen replicas of the golden plates. Are these replicas inappropriate for some reason or is it only replicating the seer stone that would be a problem? Again, I'm not sure why it would be a bad thing.What really had me bothered was that Jeanne was accusing Deseret Book of priestcraft based on a fabricated web page advertisement -- and that it later developed that she knew it was a fake but that she was using it to try to troll us and bait somebody into defending an act that never occurred. I personally think marketing such a thing would be in poor taste, but I'm not inclined to discuss that opinion here. It would, after all, be off topic.
thesometimesaint Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Stay focused here, I'm comparing book and music authors to podcast content authors. Explain the difference between those two groups. If I can get legally either/both for free it doesn't bother me. The Church doesn't charge me money for going to their website, or sing the songs in their hymnal. Though unfortunately for other peoples ears I don't have a good singing voice.
ERayR Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Yeah, but you can't be a wolf in sheep's clothing if you do that. But I hate wool, it is so itchy.
HappyJackWagon Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 We've already got a Sunstone and a Jupiter Talisman in my office. I'd love a seer stone replica.I'd never heard ot the Jupiter Talisman. It appears it's a controversial item because it links JS to occultism. Whether he owned one or not kind of becomes a moot point though since he clearly did have some connections to occultism as admitted by the church with the seer stone.
ERayR Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 What really had me bothered was that Jeanne was accusing Deseret Book of priestcraft based on a fabricated web page advertisement -- and that it later developed that she knew it was a fake but that she was using it to try to troll us and bait somebody into defending an act that never occurred.I personally think marketing such a thing would be in poor taste, but I'm not inclined to discuss that opinion here. It would, after all, be off topic. What about CTR rings at Wal-Mart?
jkwilliams Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 What about CTR rings at Wal-Mart? I once saw BYU shot glasses at the Wal-Mart in Orem. 1
sethpayne Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) I'd never heard ot the Jupiter Talisman. It appears it's a controversial item because it links JS to occultism. Whether he owned one or not kind of becomes a moot point though since he clearly did have some connections to occultism as admitted by the church with the seer stone. Yeah. Reed Durham caused some stir with his commentary on the Jupiter Talisman in the late 70's I believe. But I did think it was very well established that Joseph did in fact own such a talisman. ETA: Durham's paper was from 1974 and I think it was the Tanner's who made a big deal of it. After months of research, the talisman, presently existing in Utah, (in the Wilford Wood Collection, D. C. M.) was originally purchased from the Emma Smith Bidamon family, fully notarized by that family to be authentic and to have belonged to Joseph Smith, can now be identified as a Jupiter talisman. It carries the sign and image of Jupiter and should more appropriately be referred to as the Table of Jupiter. And in some very real and quite mysterious sense, this particular Table of Jupiter was the most appropriate talisman for Joseph Smith to possess. Indeed, it seemed meant for him, because on all levels of interpretation: planetary, mythological, numerological, astrological, mystical cabalism, and talismatic magic, the Prophet was, in every case appropriately described. (See my addition: Appendix B. M. B. H.).The characters on the talisman are primarily in Hebrew, but there is one inscription in Latin. Every letter in the Hebrew alphabet has a numerical equivalent and those numerical equivalents make up a magic square. By adding the numbers in this Jupiter Table in any direction (each row, column, or diagonal. M. B. H.), the total will be the same. In this case, on the Jupiter Table, 34. (Appendix B. M. B. H.) The total of the numbers will he 136 which number you will see on the talisman. The symbol for Jupiter (closely resembling the usual script, or hand-written, numeral 4. M. B. H.) is also found on both sides of the talisman, which by the way, is the same symbol for metal tin. http://www.mormonismi.net/temppeli/durhamin_puhe1974.shtml Edited August 6, 2015 by sethpayne
ERayR Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Yeah. Reed Durham caused some stir with his commentary on the Jupiter Talisman in the late 70's I believe. But I did think it was very well established that Joseph did in fact own such a talisman. I think it much ado about nothing.
sethpayne Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 I once saw BYU shot glasses at the Wal-Mart in Orem. I would buy that just for the laughs. Although I'm sure one could attempt green Jello shots with that glass.....
sethpayne Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 I think it much ado about nothing. I agree. I think Joseph's interest in the esoteric is fascinating and demonstrates his commitment to the idea that truth can be found anywhere.
jkwilliams Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 I would buy that just for the laughs. Although I'm sure one could attempt green Jello shots with that glass.....My daughter tells me they were labeled "toothpick holders." 2
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