thesometimesaint Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 How is this any different than Deseret Book? Selling religious goods and services for a price. In the case of Dehlin or other podcasters they are asking for donations so paying is only voluntary. Have you ever paid for a book, or video that is religious in nature, how is this any different? Paul was a tent maker by profession. He charged for his tents, not his preaching.
Gray Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 Apparently, my sarcasm wasn't obvious enough. A minor short circuit in my sarcasm detector.
Popular Post phaedrus ut Posted August 5, 2015 Popular Post Posted August 5, 2015 People aren't selling salvation for money. They are creating various forms of media, generally offering it for free but allowing for donations for those that want to support their endeavors. I've made donations from my personal foundation to charities and groups that I support their efforts and enjoy what they do. I've sent donations to Mormon Stories knowing specifically that it was indirectly providing support to Dehlin but that support would allow him the free time to produce more podcasts. It's the same reason why I support PBS and had previously been a FARMS supporter. The LDS church is the largest employer in the state of Utah. If you have concerns about priestcraft I would look there first. Phaedrus 7
jkwilliams Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 Paul was a tent maker by profession. He charged for his tents, not his preaching. Should we have a problem with general authorities who compile conference addresses and other talks into books and then sell them for a profit? 2
thesometimesaint Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 Should we have a problem with general authorities who compile conference addresses and other talks into books and then sell them for a profit? I don't have a problem with that, but then again I get to watch therm preach when they come to my Stake, or on the TV/computer during GC for free,
Bob Crockett Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 I have been on record for criticizing Bro. Reel for conducting a for-profit ministry, and then doubly critical when he pretended to not understand the distinction between a for-profit business and a non-profit business. But then he has qualified as a non-profit. The distinction is really silly, as non-profits tend to simply zero out their revenue by paying salaries. I doubt Bill gets more than a few bucks a month out of the business. IF this is his sole means of support whatever reservations I had about donations would have quadrupled. The church employs lawyers, accountants, bureaucrats just like a casino or the United Way. Judas kept the purse. Acts documents contributions and the handling of money. So, why not. 1
PacMan Posted August 5, 2015 Author Posted August 5, 2015 Please explain why you dismiss the Deseret Book industry so quickly. You're telling me there aren't any books or music written to cater to the same audience that you're speaking about. Those who struggle with faith? Come on, there are tons of books on these same subjects. Podcasts are the modern audio flavor of the same thing that has been written about for years in books. What is Deseret Book's motto? Is it anything like ""strengthening feeble knees and lifting hands that hang." Who does it cater to? Are there "self-help" books? Sure. Are there "Dealing With Patriarchal Abuse?" Probably not. I hope you can see those are very different things. Deseret Book markets to the general public. Dehlin and Reel do not. They market to victims. And they happily take their money.
PacMan Posted August 5, 2015 Author Posted August 5, 2015 People aren't selling salvation for money. They are creating various forms of media, generally offering it for free but allowing for donations for those that want to support their endeavors. I've made donations from my personal foundation to charities and groups that I support their efforts and enjoy what they do. I've sent donations to Mormon Stories knowing specifically that it was indirectly providing support to Dehlin but that support would allow him the free time to produce more podcasts. It's the same reason why I support PBS and had previously been a FARMS supporter. The LDS church is the largest employer in the state of Utah. If you have concerns about priestcraft I would look there first. Phaedrus Thanks for not addressing anything of substance in the OP! I didn't say people cannot or should not give to these folks. I don't. But the question is whether this is Priest craft. By the way, the church is soliciting employees to PAY them to provide professional services. That is different than REQUESTING money from the feeble, the weak, the tired, the oppressed, etc., etc. to tell them what they want to hear.
Duncan Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 Should we have a problem with general authorities who compile conference addresses and other talks into books and then sell them for a profit? I just bought one like that! boy, was I steamed!!!!! you can get them all online for nothing 1
jkwilliams Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 I just bought one like that! boy, was I steamed!!!!! you can get them all online for nothing Sucker Just kidding. I don't begrudge church leaders making some extra income off their talks and such, nor do I condemn anyone who makes a living talking about religion. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 At what point does this "service" cross the line to priestcraft. Or is there even a line to cross? Is this not also approaching blasphemy? First, let's get the definition of blasphemy out of the way since you don't seem to understand the meaning. blasphemy[ ˈblasfəmē ] NOUNnoun: blasphemy · plural noun: blasphemiesthe act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk:"he was detained on charges of blasphemy"synonyms: profanity · sacrilege · irreligion · irreverence Next, to the question about when a behavior becomes priestcraft. Priestcraft is selling the gospel and/or salvation. So one could argue that selling indulgences, receiving payment to perform an ordinance such as marriage, or patriarchal blessings, or approval to take plural wives is a form of priestcraft because someone benefits financially from providing a spiritual gift. If you want to take it a step further and claim that the sale of any product related to a religious issue is also priestcraft you would need to accept that all religious products sold, or rented, whether books by general authorities, religious music, podcasts, tickets to women's conferences like Time Out for Women or education week or tuition payment for religious courses at BYU, or temple clothing & garments would also be priestcraft because gospel information or access to saving ordinances is being sold. Personally I see a vast difference between selling products like a CTR ring, books, or temple lapel pins and selling an ordinance like a blessing or approval to take a plural wife which plays into a person's access to exaltation. So be consistent in what you are defining as priestcraft. IF it's priestcraft for John or Bill to accept free will donations after making available a product they produce, then you must also define the latest Elder Bednar book being sold for a profit in Deseret Book as an act of priestcraft. You may remember there was a flap about a year ago where a South American Mission was requiring a certain amount of tithing to be paid prior to a person qualifying for baptism. This was interpreted by some as priestcraft because it appeared the person had to purchase the opportunity to be baptized. This is so completely different than what podcasters and bloggers do that it's hard to compare them. 3
hope_for_things Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 (edited) You are clouding the water and creating a new definition for the action. Go back to the scripture and tell me how it applies to the Deseret Book. Honestly I don't think the scripture applies to either authors who sell their works at Deseret Book, or the podcast. That's why I asked the question how are these pod-casters different than people who write books or produce music. Edited August 5, 2015 by hope_for_things 1
hope_for_things Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 Paul was a tent maker by profession. He charged for his tents, not his preaching.Stay focused here, I'm comparing book and music authors to podcast content authors. Explain the difference between those two groups.
ERayR Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 First, let's get the definition of blasphemy out of the way since you don't seem to understand the meaning. Next, to the question about when a behavior becomes priestcraft. Priestcraft is selling the gospel and/or salvation. So one could argue that selling indulgences, receiving payment to perform an ordinance such as marriage, or patriarchal blessings, or approval to take plural wives is a form of priestcraft because someone benefits financially from providing a spiritual gift. If you want to take it a step further and claim that the sale of any product related to a religious issue is also priestcraft you would need to accept that all religious products sold, or rented, whether books by general authorities, religious music, podcasts, tickets to women's conferences like Time Out for Women or education week or tuition payment for religious courses at BYU, or temple clothing & garments would also be priestcraft because gospel information or access to saving ordinances is being sold. Personally I see a vast difference between selling products like a CTR ring, books, or temple lapel pins and selling an ordinance like a blessing or approval to take a plural wife which plays into a person's access to exaltation. So be consistent in what you are defining as priestcraft. IF it's priestcraft for John or Bill to accept free will donations after making available a product they produce, then you must also define the latest Elder Bednar book being sold for a profit in Deseret Book as an act of priestcraft. You may remember there was a flap about a year ago where a South American Mission was requiring a certain amount of tithing to be paid prior to a person qualifying for baptism. This was interpreted by some as priestcraft because it appeared the person had to purchase the opportunity to be baptized. This is so completely different than what podcasters and bloggers do that it's hard to compare them. Mark it on the wall. I agree with you. 3
hope_for_things Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 What is Deseret Book's motto? Is it anything like ""strengthening feeble knees and lifting hands that hang." Who does it cater to? Are there "self-help" books? Sure. Are there "Dealing With Patriarchal Abuse?" Probably not. I hope you can see those are very different things. Deseret Book markets to the general public. Dehlin and Reel do not. They market to victims. And they happily take their money.Seriously, you don't know of any books that address faith concerns that are sold by Deseret Book. Nothing like The Crucible of Doubt, or Shaken Faith Syndrome, or a multitude of other titles that cater to people who have concerns about church history or culture. You must be living in a bubble if you don't know this. It is a part of the library of what Deseret Book sells, they sell books and music on a multitude of subjects. Shockingly there are also podcasts on a multitude of Mormon topics as well. The question is whether you think someone who writes a book targeted at the exact same audiences that a Dehlin or Reel would target, do you think that person is equally in violation of your interpretation of priestcraft?
HappyJackWagon Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 Mark it on the wall. I agree with you. Don't worry. I won't let it go to my head
PacMan Posted August 5, 2015 Author Posted August 5, 2015 (edited) First, let's get the definition of blasphemy out of the way since you don't seem to understand the meaning. Next, to the question about when a behavior becomes priestcraft. Priestcraft is selling the gospel and/or salvation. So one could argue that selling indulgences, receiving payment to perform an ordinance such as marriage, or patriarchal blessings, or approval to take plural wives is a form of priestcraft because someone benefits financially from providing a spiritual gift. If you want to take it a step further and claim that the sale of any product related to a religious issue is also priestcraft you would need to accept that all religious products sold, or rented, whether books by general authorities, religious music, podcasts, tickets to women's conferences like Time Out for Women or education week or tuition payment for religious courses at BYU, or temple clothing & garments would also be priestcraft because gospel information or access to saving ordinances is being sold. Personally I see a vast difference between selling products like a CTR ring, books, or temple lapel pins and selling an ordinance like a blessing or approval to take a plural wife which plays into a person's access to exaltation. So be consistent in what you are defining as priestcraft. IF it's priestcraft for John or Bill to accept free will donations after making available a product they produce, then you must also define the latest Elder Bednar book being sold for a profit in Deseret Book as an act of priestcraft. You may remember there was a flap about a year ago where a South American Mission was requiring a certain amount of tithing to be paid prior to a person qualifying for baptism. This was interpreted by some as priestcraft because it appeared the person had to purchase the opportunity to be baptized. This is so completely different than what podcasters and bloggers do that it's hard to compare them. So much fun! And now that you defined blasphemy....what's your point? Are you suggesting that marketing one's spiritual services is not blasphemy? I think it is squarely within the definition. How is it anything but profane and irreverent? As far as your tangents on priestcraft, go read what I have already written. It is one thing to make a variety of books available to the general public. It is another to market one's own books, services, etc., to the destitute and vulnerable. That's what is occurring. I understand that you want to ignore that inconvenient little truth. But it is a truth, nonetheless. Edited August 5, 2015 by PacMan 3
Gray Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 So much fun! And now that you defined blasphemy....what's your point? Are you suggesting that marketing one's spiritual services is not blasphemy? I think it is squarely within the definition. How is it anything but profane and irreverent? As far as your tangents on priestcraft, go read what I have already written. It is one thing to make a variety of books available to the general public. It is another to market one's own books, services, etc., to the destitute and vulnerable. That's what is occurring. I understand that you want to ignore that inconvenient little truth. But it is a truth, nonetheless. Who is marketing to the "destitute and the vulnerable"? 1
bluebell Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 I really don't see what those guys are doing as any different than what Deseret book does, and i don't think either one is a bad thing. When I think of priestcraft i think of people who are offering salvation for sale, not asking to be reimbursed or even make a living on a talent or skill or helpful knowledge they have acquired. Doesn't it say somewhere in the bible that the worker is worthy of his pay? 4
Mormonmaniac Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 Dehlin, Reel, etc. the slippery slope into hell. It starts out innocent but then pride kicks in and one become quite certain they are right and the church is wrong. Then they start applauding fallen Mormons and taking their sides more frequently. Then slowly, they come up against in arms of the main principles of the church (such as women and the priesthood, racism, homosexuality, etc) and then its war. On top of this they still want to voice opposition and BE HEARD and get money to pay for their squackings. Ah...the slippery slope into hell.
Storm Rider Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 I really don't see what those guys are doing as any different than what Deseret book does, and i don't think either one is a bad thing. When I think of priestcraft i think of people who are offering salvation for sale, not asking to be reimbursed or even make a living on a talent or skill or helpful knowledge they have acquired. Doesn't it say somewhere in the bible that the worker is worthy of his pay? Not so much. If we go back to the scripture, “Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the Welfare of Zion…. " 2 Ne. 26:29. I don't see how you get selling salvation out of that scripture. Are you referring to another scriptural reference or something else? What I see this saying that those individuals who set themselves up as "knowing" and, more importantly, as someone that should be listened to and their motivation is to get gain. Defining gain seems first and foremost financially, but I am sure this group could define it in additional methods and forms also. Further, these individuals like to be praised of men; it is important to them. The vital phrase is that they are those who do not seek the welfare of Zion. Dehlin I am familiar with to a small degree. For me, this scripture addresses Dehlin; he set up a priestcraft, continues to practice it, and has no interest in the welfare of Zion. The other fellow I just don't know anything about, but this scripture is not rocket science, it is not difficult to understand, or complex. It is simple and straightforward and attempting to cloud the issue or evade applying the full meaning does not result in excluding those that are stung by the truthfulness of the scripture. 2
Popular Post Buckeye Posted August 5, 2015 Popular Post Posted August 5, 2015 Sorry if this point has already been made, but "priestcraft" requires the activity to be something related to or requiring authority from God. So if I charged money for a baby blessing that could raise a question. But even then I would be loath to jump to the conclusion of priestcraft without knowing all the facts and intentions. Church Patriachs in the early days used to charge a travel fee when they went to give blessings, but I wouldn't call that priestcraft. All of this gets to the point that what Dehlin, Reel, DB, Especially For Youth, MoTab, and many others do cannot amount to priestcraft. Yes, they all may at times charge for their services, but those services - podcasts, books, retreats, concerts - are not something that requires divine authority. 5
hope_for_things Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 Dehlin, Reel, etc. the slippery slope into hell. It starts out innocent but then pride kicks in and one become quite certain they are right and the church is wrong. Then they start applauding fallen Mormons and taking their sides more frequently. Then slowly, they come up against in arms of the main principles of the church (such as women and the priesthood, racism, homosexuality, etc) and then its war. On top of this they still want to voice opposition and BE HEARD and get money to pay for their squackings. Ah...the slippery slope into hell. HAHA.... Why stop at Hell, don't you mean outer darkness for they saw the light once and now are denying it. Oh that crafty Satan, he's get you with his cleaver trappings. Good thing I know I'm not caught up in this slippery slope. I'm humble, and not prideful like these guys. 1
Buckeye Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 Dehlin, Reel, etc. the slippery slope into hell. It starts out innocent but then pride kicks in and one become quite certain they are right and the church is wrong. Then they start applauding fallen Mormons and taking their sides more frequently. Then slowly, they come up against in arms of the main principles of the church (such as women and the priesthood, racism, homosexuality, etc) and then its war. On top of this they still want to voice opposition and BE HEARD and get money to pay for their squackings. Ah...the slippery slope into hell. Wait, racism is one of "the main principles of the church"? :help: 2
HappyJackWagon Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 So much fun! And now that you defined blasphemy....what's your point? Are you suggesting that marketing one's spiritual services is not blasphemy? I think it is squarely within the definition. How is it anything but profane and irreverent? As far as your tangents on priestcraft, go read what I have already written. It is one thing to make a variety of books available to the general public. It is another to market one's own books, services, etc., to the destitute and vulnerable. That's what is occurring. I understand that you want to ignore that inconvenient little truth. But it is a truth, nonetheless.You asked about the "line" at which something becomes priestcraft so I give examples and you call them "tangents". Frankly it could be easily argued that the podcasts are more available to the general public than the books that have to be purchased from DB. You still haven't addressed how Bil, John and others are different than church sanctioned sales of products and services. Is the gospel not meant for the destitute and vulnerable? Are we all not destitute and vulnerable. PacMan, you're failing on many levels here.
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