Dehlin, Reel, And Other Do-Gooders Asking For Money To Do...good.

[PacMan]

“Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the Welfare of Zion…. "  2 Ne. 26:29.

 

I have noticed that websites and organizations purporting to lend a hand to the "outcast and downtrodden" among us also ask for donations and sell products.  The explanation is that their charitable "service" costs money.  Dehlin for example made a nice little wage, paying his graduate school and "living" costs.  Bill Reel is another, who asks for donations and even has a "products" page where he sells his own work. http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/products/

 

I think they would contend that they are seeking Zion’s welfare…trying to help and lift.  But then, isn’t it also true that, according to Matthew 6:24, you “cannot serve both God and mammon?”  How are these people doing anything but serving mammon, in the name of God no less, where money is passing hands?  Is the fact that their self-proclaimed poverty or proffer that they do not make “much” really a defense?  Does it matter?

 

Personally, I stay away from anyone using the "compassionate insider" persona that has a shopping card and a credit card slide.  If you want to be a servant of compassion, do your home teaching, say I. 

 

At what point does this "service" cross the line to priestcraft.  Or is there even a line to cross?  Is this not also approaching blasphemy?

 

[ERayR]

“Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the Welfare of Zion…. "  2 Ne. 26:29.

 

I have noticed that websites and organizations purporting to lend a hand to the "outcast and downtrodden" among us also ask for donations and sell products.  The explanation is that their charitable "service" costs money.  Dehlin for example made a nice little wage, paying his graduate school and "living" costs.  Bill Reel is another, who asks for donations and even has a "products" page where he sells his own work. http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/products/

 

I think they would contend that they are seeking Zion’s welfare…trying to help and lift.  But then, isn’t it also true that, according to Matthew 6:24, you “cannot serve both God and mammon?”  How are these people doing anything but serving mammon, in the name of God no less, where money is passing hands?  Is the fact that their self-proclaimed poverty or proffer that they do not make “much” really a defense?  Does it matter?

 

Personally, I stay away from anyone using the "compassionate insider" persona that has a shopping card and a credit card slide.  If you want to be a servant of compassion, do your home teaching, say I. 

 

At what point does this "service" cross the line to priestcraft.  Or is there even a line to cross?  Is this not also approaching blasphemy?

 

Ah that is question isn't it?  When one rides on the edge it is not hard to slip over.

[jkwilliams]

I make about $12 a month selling my book, so priestcraft isn't always that lucrative. 

[ALarson]

They have every right to ask for donations to support their cause, podcasts, etc., to help with the production costs and other expenses.  It's up to the individual if they want to support them and donate.

 

Just don't donate.

Edited August 5, 2015 by ALarson

[hope_for_things]

How is this any different than Deseret Book?  Selling religious goods and services for a price.  In the case of Dehlin or other podcasters they are asking for donations so paying is only voluntary.  Have you ever paid for a book, or video that is religious in nature, how is this any different?  

[jkwilliams]

How is this any different than Deseret Book?  Selling religious goods and services for a price.  In the case of Dehlin or other podcasters they are asking for donations so paying is only voluntary.  Have you ever paid for a book, or video that is religious in nature, how is this any different?  

 

Maybe it's OK to make money if you're trying to build the kingdom.

[The Nehor]

They have every right to ask for donations to support their cause, podcasts, etc., to help with the production costs and other expenses.  It's up to the individual if they want to support them and donate.

 

Just don't donate.

Every right in what sense? Legal? Definitely but that is clearly not what he is talking about. Priestcraft is legal but I do not find that a convincing endorsement.

[CA Steve]

 

At what point does this "service" cross the line to priestcraft.  Or is there even a line to cross?  Is this not also approaching blasphemy?

The point seems to be where people disagree with how the "service" (why is service in scare quotes?) provider defines the Church.

 

Do you have a problem with Meridian Magazine making money?

[Storm Rider]

They have every right to ask for donations to support their cause, podcasts, etc., to help with the production costs and other expenses.  It's up to the individual if they want to support them and donate.

 

Just don't donate.

 

But that just avoids the question.  When does it cross the line and individuals fall into priestcraft.  It is simple question worth contemplating and asking.  You have not answered but tried to lend support to why it is okay to ask for money and donations.

[jkwilliams]

But that just avoids the question.  When does it cross the line and individuals fall into priestcraft.  It is simple question worth contemplating and asking.  You have not answered but tried to lend support to why it is okay to ask for money and donations.

 

Beats me. It costs money to do a podcast, so unless someone has money to burn, it's not unreasonable to ask for donations to defray the costs. You've probably crossed the line if you're using the money to put a down payment on a house.

[stemelbow]

They do a work and people help fund their efforts, voluntarily. No one would be able to sustain themselves if we all saw this as priestcraft and didn't do it. What job out there isn't about providing some sort of good and service while getting paid because someone is interested enough in the good and service to pay money for it?

[PacMan]

Thanks for the comments.  Let me clarify a few things:

 

I am speaking specifically to people that market their websites to vulnerable types of people...the abused, the disaffected, etc. Now, I don't doubt that many people truly want to help others, but there is also a great risk that they prey on susceptible persons.  On its face, their "service" is in direct conflict with their personal gain.  For example, Bill Reel's website states that it exists to "strengthening feeble knees and lifting hands that hang."  I guess we should ask, who's arms and knees is he trying to help?  His own?  I think Reel's head got big after he was made a Bishop, got a little air time with John Dehlin, and thought "I can do this too!"  And now, he's of the mind that a "personal visit from Bill" is marketable.  Gag!

 

I think John Dehlin's is an extremely dangerous case.  If I correctly recall, Dehlin was getting a master's degree is psychology.  So, here you have a mental health professional that talks about the mental health challenges of church separation, abuse, blah, blah.  He thereby created a new market for his unique services.  And then, marketing cruises for couples therapy and everything else to boot.  Exceptionally crafty, Dehlin is.  And, exceptionally dangerous.

I hope everyone can see why Deseret Book isn't even in the same discussion.  In full disclosure, I really am not a fan of the Mormon media market.  But we are not talking about general audience marketing.  My concern is where "compassionate insiders" market to susceptible, and often legitimate victims that are desperately looking for solutions.  If you tell them what they want to hear, human nature says that they'll pay...voluntarily.

[stemelbow]

Thanks for the comments.  Let me clarify a few things:

 

I am speaking specifically to people that market their websites to vulnerable types of people...the abused, the disaffected, etc. Now, I don't doubt that many people truly want to help others, but there is also a great risk that they prey on susceptible persons.  On its face, their "service" is in direct conflict with their personal gain.  For example, Bill Reel's website states that it exists to "strengthening feeble knees and lifting hands that hang."  I guess we should ask, who's arms and knees is he trying to help?  His own?  I think Reel's head got big after he was made a Bishop, got a little air time with John Dehlin, and thought "I can do this too!"  And now, he's of the mind that a "personal visit from Bill" is marketable.  Gag!

 

I think John Dehlin's is an extremely dangerous case.  If I correctly recall, Dehlin was getting a master's degree is psychology.  So, here you have a mental health professional that talks about the mental health challenges of church separation, abuse, blah, blah.  He thereby created a new market for his unique services.  And then, marketing cruises for couples therapy and everything else to boot.  Exceptionally crafty, Dehlin is.  And, exceptionally dangerous.

I hope everyone can see why Deseret Book isn't even in the same discussion.  In full disclosure, I really am not a fan of the Mormon media market.  But we are not talking about general audience marketing.  My concern is where "compassionate insiders" market to susceptible, and often legitimate victims that are desperately looking for solutions.  If you tell them what they want to hear, human nature says that they'll pay...voluntarily.

I appreciate the explanation. Using the verse in the OP as the definition, I still wonder how everyone is not into priestcraft, these days. It seems like the professional world is all about building up self, establishing oneself as a light unto the world to get gain. And it seems most of that gain is not used to seek the welfare of zion. The business worlds is inundated with books hoping to capitalize and it seems they are working, these days. These books are everywhere and there's certainly a set of people out there eating them up. But perhaps the reader feels like he/she is benefitting. if he who partakes benefits, then so be it.

[hope_for_things]

Thanks for the comments.  Let me clarify a few things:

 

I am speaking specifically to people that market their websites to vulnerable types of people...the abused, the disaffected, etc. Now, I don't doubt that many people truly want to help others, but there is also a great risk that they prey on susceptible persons.  On its face, their "service" is in direct conflict with their personal gain.  For example, Bill Reel's website states that it exists to "strengthening feeble knees and lifting hands that hang."  I guess we should ask, who's arms and knees is he trying to help?  His own?  I think Reel's head got big after he was made a Bishop, got a little air time with John Dehlin, and thought "I can do this too!"  And now, he's of the mind that a "personal visit from Bill" is marketable.  Gag!

 

I think John Dehlin's is an extremely dangerous case.  If I correctly recall, Dehlin was getting a master's degree is psychology.  So, here you have a mental health professional that talks about the mental health challenges of church separation, abuse, blah, blah.  He thereby created a new market for his unique services.  And then, marketing cruises for couples therapy and everything else to boot.  Exceptionally crafty, Dehlin is.  And, exceptionally dangerous.

I hope everyone can see why Deseret Book isn't even in the same discussion.  In full disclosure, I really am not a fan of the Mormon media market.  But we are not talking about general audience marketing.  My concern is where "compassionate insiders" market to susceptible, and often legitimate victims that are desperately looking for solutions.  If you tell them what they want to hear, human nature says that they'll pay...voluntarily.

 

Please explain why you dismiss the Deseret Book industry so quickly. You're telling me there aren't any books or music written to cater to the same audience that you're speaking about.  Those who struggle with faith?  Come on, there are tons of books on these same subjects.  Podcasts are the modern audio flavor of the same thing that has been written about for years in books.   

[Storm Rider]

Beats me. It costs money to do a podcast, so unless someone has money to burn, it's not unreasonable to ask for donations to defray the costs. You've probably crossed the line if you're using the money to put a down payment on a house.

 

Again, why are you so desperate to make donating acceptable - it is not the question.  Beats me is your answer - you don't know when asking for donations becomes priestcraft. 

 

I have never considered the question either and that is why I think the question is worthy of discussion. 

 

It is obvious that media time - almost all media forms - demand some degree or form of capital investment - at least the value of time devoted to it.  I can see a person who devotes their private time to a blog that also reviews questions, shares opinions, etc. - then at some point saying "Hey, I have a lot of interested parties in what I am saying; if I just had "X" dollars I could do this full time and help all the more. 

 

This comes close to being like Simon Magus who wanted the priesthood in the Bible; was ready to pay for it even just to get it.  To be paid to serve others is a slippery slope that is dangerous when an individual has no checks and balances.

 

It seems like being called of God to do certain things plays a role.  I am sure that some of these people, at one time or another, felt led to serve others in this way. 

 

I guess I have to go back to the definition presented and those involved have to ask the hard questions of themselves and be honest in their responses. 

 

I think almost all things become less than helpful when the focus is not following the Savior, emulating his example, and strengthening our witness of him. 

[Storm Rider]

Please explain why you dismiss the Deseret Book industry so quickly. You're telling me there aren't any books or music written to cater to the same audience that you're speaking about.  Those who struggle with faith?  Come on, there are tons of books on these same subjects.  Podcasts are the modern audio flavor of the same thing that has been written about for years in books.   

 

You are clouding the water and creating a new definition for the action.  Go back to the scripture and tell me how it applies to the Deseret Book.

[jkwilliams]

Again, why are you so desperate to make donating acceptable - it is not the question.  Beats me is your answer - you don't know when asking for donations becomes priestcraft. 

 

I have never considered the question either and that is why I think the question is worthy of discussion. 

 

It is obvious that media time - almost all media forms - demand some degree or form of capital investment - at least the value of time devoted to it.  I can see a person who devotes their private time to a blog that also reviews questions, shares opinions, etc. - then at some point saying "Hey, I have a lot of interested parties in what I am saying; if I just had "X" dollars I could do this full time and help all the more. 

 

This comes close to being like Simon Magus who wanted the priesthood in the Bible; was ready to pay for it even just to get it.  To be paid to serve others is a slippery slope that is dangerous when an individual has no checks and balances.

 

It seems like being called of God to do certain things plays a role.  I am sure that some of these people, at one time or another, felt led to serve others in this way. 

 

I guess I have to go back to the definition presented and those involved have to ask the hard questions of themselves and be honest in their responses. 

 

I think almost all things become less than helpful when the focus is not following the Savior, emulating his example, and strengthening our witness of him. 

 

Desperate? How so?

 

I couldn't care less what John Dehlin or Bill Reel do, and I don't pretend to understand their intent, as that would likely involve mind-reading, which I am not good at. For me, it boils down to this: are they doing this for personal gain or not? In the early days of the restoration, it cost money to get a patriarchal blessing. Was that priestcraft? 

[Avatar4321]

I tend to think priestcraft is a matter of heart. What is the motivation? Making money and getting famous? Or building the kingdom?

[jkwilliams]

I tend to think priestcraft is a matter of heart. What is the motivation? Making money and getting famous? Or building the kingdom?

 

Exactly. 

[Gray]

“Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the Welfare of Zion…. "  2 Ne. 26:29.

 

I have noticed that websites and organizations purporting to lend a hand to the "outcast and downtrodden" among us also ask for donations and sell products.  The explanation is that their charitable "service" costs money.  Dehlin for example made a nice little wage, paying his graduate school and "living" costs.  Bill Reel is another, who asks for donations and even has a "products" page where he sells his own work. http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/products/

 

I think they would contend that they are seeking Zion’s welfare…trying to help and lift.  But then, isn’t it also true that, according to Matthew 6:24, you “cannot serve both God and mammon?”  How are these people doing anything but serving mammon, in the name of God no less, where money is passing hands?  Is the fact that their self-proclaimed poverty or proffer that they do not make “much” really a defense?  Does it matter?

 

Personally, I stay away from anyone using the "compassionate insider" persona that has a shopping card and a credit card slide.  If you want to be a servant of compassion, do your home teaching, say I. 

 

At what point does this "service" cross the line to priestcraft.  Or is there even a line to cross?  Is this not also approaching blasphemy?

 

Heaven forbid someone get paid for their time. Wickedness!

[jkwilliams]

Heaven forbid someone get paid for their time. Wickedness!

 

You sound desperate.

[Gray]

Beats me. It costs money to do a podcast, so unless someone has money to burn, it's not unreasonable to ask for donations to defray the costs. You've probably crossed the line if you're using the money to put a down payment on a house.

 

I agree, except with the last line. There is nothing unethical about earning a living wage from podcasting. 

[Gray]

You sound desperate.

 

I had hoped my sarcasm was more obvious!

[jkwilliams]

I agree, except with the last line. There is nothing unethical about earning a living wage from podcasting. 

 

You're right. As I said, I think it's a matter of intent, and I can't judge people's intent.

[jkwilliams]

I had hoped my sarcasm was more obvious!

 

Apparently, my sarcasm wasn't obvious enough.