Dehlin, Reel, And Other Do-Gooders Asking For Money To Do...good.

[provoman]

Very childish attack on a good person. You should be very proud of yourself.

 

Personally, I would have no desire to join an anti-anything group. Talk about focusing on the negative.

The attacks on are very childish. I am astounded at the support the attacks are getting.

[Tacenda]

Very childish attack on a good person. You should be very proud of yourself.

 

Personally, I would have no desire to join an anti-anything group. Talk about focusing on the negative.

You'll see he was being sarcastic when you read his next post which I agree with.

[sethpayne]

Very childish attack on a good person. You should be very proud of yourself.

 

Personally, I would have no desire to join an anti-anything group. Talk about focusing on the negative.

 

I think provoman was being sarcastic and that he actually agrees with you HJW.

 

The sad part is that there are some on this board who would make those statements in all seriousness!

[rockpond]

I have you the CFR you asked for with a direct link. Your second question is not a CAR but I will answer it anyway. I have listened to several of his podcasts. The last one I listened to was his interview with Quinn.

What I find of interest Ius that you never hear him with a positive endorsement for the church and it's current teachings. Why do you think that is?

 

The "CFR" you provided was him quoting an article he was reviewing (as I pointed out to you).  You have yet to support your accusations of Bill.

 

I haven't listened to his interview with Quinn yet.  Here's the description of it from his website:

 

"Today I sit down with Mormon Historian, D. Michael Quinn.  We talk about his excommunication, his still powerful belief in the Mormonism and the Restoration.  He explains his literal belief in Gold Plates, an angel Moroni, and in Joseph Smith as a actual prophet.  We also hit on Revelatory Walking Sticks, Magic in the Mormon World, his blessing from Spencer W. Kimball that he would someday be an Apostle, and various other interesting stops along the way.  This is a can’t Miss episode."

 

Wow.  Sounds terrible!    So what from the episode did you hear that made you think Bill questions the validity of the prophets and authority of the church?

 

The fact that you can say Bill never has a positive endorsement of the church or its teachings tells me that you haven't listened to him enough to judge him.  You need only peruse his website for a few minutes to find a number of statements of his belief in the teachings of the church.

 

Here is one of Bill's episodes that I have listened to repeatedly:  http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2012/08/best-of-stories-and-parables-in-the-church/

 

In that episode Bill shares his favorite stories and parables of Christ.

[Brian 2.0]

I heard from a reliable source that Bill spoiled the end of Walking Dead on his podcast, without warning! I also heard from a reliable source that he often parks his car too close to the line, therefore making it harder to park in the spot next to him!

And he has the gall to ask for donations!

[Tacenda]

I heard from a reliable source that Bill spoiled the end of Walking Dead on his podcast, without warning! I also heard from a reliable source that he often parks his car too close to the line, therefore making it harder to park in the spot next to him!

And he has the gall to ask for donations!

I'm kinda mad at people like Bill that help keep me in the church despite knowing 'stuff'!  Half kidding.  It would be nice to know where I'd be today.  Would I still be on the internet boards, listening to Mormon themed podcasts or would I have a life and go in a completely different direction.  People like Bill keep me going and the good LDS beliefs keep me in.  People like Bill and his podcast, make me feel I'm not going nuts for having these feelings of betrayal or like I'm in a Twilight Zone or I'm not alone. 

 

The anti's put out the info that got me to this place, but the church should have not let the anti's get there first.

[provoman]

I heard from a reliable source that Bill spoiled the end of Walking Dead on his podcast, without warning! I also heard from a reliable source that he often parks his car too close to the line, therefore making it harder to park in the spot next to him!

And he has the gall to ask for donations!

I heard that at a Ward Dinner, he placed the jello-salad prepared by the Relief Society President, on the desserts table instead of the main dish table.

[stemelbow]

I heard that at a Ward Dinner, he placed the jello-salad prepared by the Relief Society President, on the desserts table instead of the main dish table.

S.O...

[HappyJackWagon]

I think provoman was being sarcastic and that he actually agrees with you HJW.

 

The sad part is that there are some on this board who would make those statements in all seriousness!

Yeah- I like the way he updated his post to show the sarcasm more clearly.

[Calm]

Do

FAIRMORMON,

Interpreter:A Journal of Mormon Scripture,

Meridian Magazine,

and all the missionary themed stores in Utah

count as "asking for money to do...good".

Just to be clear, not a penny goes into FairMormon volunteers' pocket save for reimbursements of a few travel expenses and such things and we pay for the privilege of volunteering, attending conferences, etc, The only one paid is our bookstore manager and she is not involved in the apologetics side (or anything else iirc).

I am not suggesting Reel personally profits financially from his site. I have no knowledge on that.

Dehlin did get eventually at least 40,000 a year, which is a nice income for a grad student...that doesn't automatically make what he does priestcraft. My problem with him is that it appears from what I have observed over the years that he significantly contributed to creating the demographic that would be attracted to using his professional work...not normally a troublesome thing, but given it is in the mental, emotional and social therapy field..it seems akin to me to someone owning a "homecooked, just like Grandma made" comfortfood restaurant where everything is either breaded, fried or served with a cream sauce while working to get a degree in nutrition or working to become a doctor who specializes in treating obesity. OTOH, I suspect Dehlin himself and many others would see him as offering more of a smorgasboard of food with a high potential of providing a balanced, healthy diet. I can understand why having the interest in one area led to choosing activity in the other, I just see a conflict of interest issue for his professional job. I see him as too invested in creating the mindset (questioning the value of one's personal beliefs) that often leads to the type of situation where people seek out help from others (him) in resolving their issues that sort of mindset leads to. I also think the way he goes about encouraging others to examine the Church and themselves isn't a particularly healthy approach, information is given but imo little effective training (either outright or just by example) in how to critically examine one's own assumptions so the result ends up being for many much more of an emotional and unbalanced shock process rather than a thoughtful, educated training that moves one into a more informed position through effective educational techniques.

Edited August 7, 2015 by calmoriah

[Mormonmaniac]

The "CFR" you provided was him quoting an article he was reviewing (as I pointed out to you).  You have yet to support your accusations of Bill.

 

I haven't listened to his interview with Quinn yet.  Here's the description of it from his website:

 

"Today I sit down with Mormon Historian, D. Michael Quinn.  We talk about his excommunication, his still powerful belief in the Mormonism and the Restoration.  He explains his literal belief in Gold Plates, an angel Moroni, and in Joseph Smith as a actual prophet.  We also hit on Revelatory Walking Sticks, Magic in the Mormon World, his blessing from Spencer W. Kimball that he would someday be an Apostle, and various other interesting stops along the way.  This is a can’t Miss episode."

 

Wow.  Sounds terrible!    So what from the episode did you hear that made you think Bill questions the validity of the prophets and authority of the church?

 

The fact that you can say Bill never has a positive endorsement of the church or its teachings tells me that you haven't listened to him enough to judge him.  You need only peruse his website for a few minutes to find a number of statements of his belief in the teachings of the church.

 

Here is one of Bill's episodes that I have listened to repeatedly:  http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2012/08/best-of-stories-and-parables-in-the-church/

 

In that episode Bill shares his favorite stories and parables of Christ.

It's the pandering to certain types and individuals that is bothersome. Quinn for example is not Mormon as Bill alludes to that he is. He is an exmormon who was excommunicated and is and has been highly critical of the church. Bill panders to these types as if he was wronged. I'm sorry but that type of pandering and illusion doesn't cut it for me.

[PacMan]

I'm still trying to figure out your criteria for Priestcraft. I'll repost a post a while back that you may not have seen.

Say Bill's podcast didn't have any controversial subjects in it. It was just a podcast devoted to helping the downtrodden and those with feeble knees and he strengthened them by singing hymns, reading poetry, and posting funny cat pics. And he also asked for donations.

Is that okay?

Is it the content that makes you question whether Bill's podcast is priestcraft?

Is it the target audience combined with asking for money?

Is it the motive of the podcaster?

 

No, I do not think it is okay.  And the reason is likely closest to the second that you posted.  I have a very serious problem with people that specifically market "help" to the susceptible - those that are in a place of confusion or that need answers.  When a specific group of vulnerable people are the target market, the issues are no longer academic.  They are of real consequence.  This poses a remarkable conflict.  Are the Dehlins and Reels of the world trying to help people, or trying to run a business by selling their own books (money) and asking for donations (money) off the backs of the susceptible?  Frankly, it looks like a classic bait-and-switch.

 

The more militant these people get in defending themselves without acknowledging the merits of the concern leads me to believe that they are either self-deceived or intellectually dishonest.  Something about 'protesting too much.'  The conflict exists on its face.  There's no harm in admitting it.  When these people do not admit that a conflict exists I am driven to the conclusion that it's all a scam.

Understand that I do not have a problem with either in isolation.  If people want to write books for sale, then go for it.  I find it disagreeable when people whore their religion for their own name recognition, but to each his own.  If people want to help the spiritually needy, fantastic.  But I draw a line when the two are mixed.  One's good intentions mixed with money can turn into a damnable cocktail.

[PacMan]

Just to be clear, not a penny goes into FairMormon volunteers' pocket save for reimbursements of a few travel expenses and such things and we pay for the privilege of volunteering, attending conferences, etc, The only one paid is our bookstore manager and she is not involved in the apologetics side (or anything else iirc).

I am not suggesting Reel personally profits financially from his site. I have no knowledge on that.

Dehlin did get eventually at least 40,000 a year, which is a nice income for a grad student...that doesn't automatically make what he does priestcraft. My problem with him is that it appears from what I have observed over the years that he significantly contributed to creating the demographic that would be attracted to using his professional work...not normally a troublesome thing, but given it is in the mental, emotional and social therapy field..it seems akin to me to someone owning a "homecooked, just like Grandma made" comfortfood restaurant where everything is either breaded, fried or served with a cream sauce while working to get a degree in nutrition or working to become a doctor who specializes in treating obesity. OTOH, I suspect Dehlin himself and many others would see him as offering more of a smorgasboard of food with a high potential of providing a balanced, healthy diet. I can understand why having the interest in one area led to choosing activity in the other, I just see a conflict of interest issue for his professional job. I see him as too invested in creating the mindset (questioning the value of one's personal beliefs) that often leads to the type of situation where people seek out help from others (him) in resolving their issues that sort of mindset leads to. I also think the way he goes about encouraging others to examine the Church and themselves isn't a particularly healthy approach, information is given but imo little effective training (either outright or just by example) in how to critically examine one's own assumptions so the result ends up being for many much more of an emotional and unbalanced shock process rather than a thoughtful, educated training that moves one into a more informed position through effective educational techniques.

I would also add that Dehlin is a particularly dangerous case.  He works in the professional mental health field.  His influence is not simply as a pundit, but as a professional.  Frankly, I would not be surprised if he is someday sued for malpractice.  Just wait until a mentally person follows Dehlin off the excommunication cliff then ends his life in despair.  IMHO, Dehlin is reckless.  Blaming the "patriarchal" and "abusive" church will not solve peoples' problems.  No bueno.

[thesometimesaint]

I would also add that Dehlin is a particularly dangerous case.  He works in the professional mental health field.  His influence is not simply as a pundit, but as a professional.  Frankly, I would not be surprised if he is someday sued for malpractice.  Just wait until a mentally person follows Dehlin off the excommunication cliff then ends his life in despair.  IMHO, Dehlin is reckless.  Blaming the "patriarchal" and "abusive" church will not solve peoples' problems.  No bueno.

 

The solution in your own hands. Caveat Emptor. IOW Read all these so called self-help books at your own risk.

[HappyJackWagon]

No, I do not think it is okay.  And the reason is likely closest to the second that you posted.  I have a very serious problem with people that specifically market "help" to the susceptible - those that are in a place of confusion or that need answers.  When a specific group of vulnerable people are the target market, the issues are no longer academic.  They are of real consequence.  This poses a remarkable conflict.  Are the Dehlins and Reels of the world trying to help people, or trying to run a business by selling their own books (money) and asking for donations (money) off the backs of the susceptible?  Frankly, it looks like a classic bait-and-switch.

 

The more militant these people get in defending themselves without acknowledging the merits of the concern leads me to believe that they are either self-deceived or intellectually dishonest.  Something about 'protesting too much.'  The conflict exists on its face.  There's no harm in admitting it.  When these people do not admit that a conflict exists I am driven to the conclusion that it's all a scam.

Understand that I do not have a problem with either in isolation.  If people want to write books for sale, then go for it.  I find it disagreeable when people whore their religion for their own name recognition, but to each his own.  If people want to help the spiritually needy, fantastic.  But I draw a line when the two are mixed.  One's good intentions mixed with money can turn into a damnable cocktail.

So for you it's ALL about motive. If the intent is to really help,  a person or organization, like a church or even a podcaster, is justified in accepting money from the people it helps, right? Whenever money changes hands the conflict exists as you describe. It can easily be argued that a church accepts money from those who are susceptible and then supply them with answers. So the motives can be pure or the answers can be perfect. Sadly, I don't know that any person or organization has perfectly pure motives or perfect answers.

[Brian 2.0]

No, I do not think it is okay.  And the reason is likely closest to the second that you posted.  I have a very serious problem with people that specifically market "help" to the susceptible - those that are in a place of confusion or that need answers.  When a specific group of vulnerable people are the target market, the issues are no longer academic.  They are of real consequence.  This poses a remarkable conflict.  Are the Dehlins and Reels of the world trying to help people, or trying to run a business by selling their own books (money) and asking for donations (money) off the backs of the susceptible?  Frankly, it looks like a classic bait-and-switch.

 

So what do you think of therapists that specifically market to depressed people or addicts or people with broken marriages... and then charge for their services as a therapist?

[KevinG]

I always thought Priestcraft had more to do with misrepresenting ones self as an authorized representative of Christ than it did any monetary gain.  There are other kinds of gain like power, prestige, influence, and leverage over others that have nothing to do with money, but would be just as evil.

[rockpond]

I would also add that Dehlin is a particularly dangerous case.  He works in the professional mental health field.  His influence is not simply as a pundit, but as a professional.  Frankly, I would not be surprised if he is someday sued for malpractice.  Just wait until a mentally person follows Dehlin off the excommunication cliff then ends his life in despair.  IMHO, Dehlin is reckless.  Blaming the "patriarchal" and "abusive" church will not solve peoples' problems.  No bueno.

 

Sued for malpractice because he interviews people in a podcast?

[Tacenda]

I remember seeing a special on t.v. about Larry H. Miller's life. It mentioned his mother went to a therapist when Larry was a teenager or a young adult, who was anti. It wasn't too long before she no longer believed. I believe seeing the therapist had something to do with it.

Larry is the one who started the Joseph Smith Paper's project and funded it. I believe that it was a church history problem that started her out of the church.

[thesometimesaint]

I remember seeing a special on t.v. about Larry H. Miller's life. It mentioned his mother went to a therapist when Larry was a teenager or a young adult, who was anti. It wasn't too long before she no longer believed. I believe seeing the therapist had something to do with it.

Larry is the one who started the Joseph Smith Paper's project and funded it. I believe that it was a church history problem that started her out of the church.

 

That is an example of psychological abuse by that therapist. Shame on him. He gave a bad name to the good ones.

[Scott Lloyd]

I remember seeing a special on t.v. about Larry H. Miller's life. It mentioned his mother went to a therapist when Larry was a teenager or a young adult, who was anti. It wasn't too long before she no longer believed. I believe seeing the therapist had something to do with it.

Larry is the one who started the Joseph Smith Paper's project and funded it. I believe that it was a church history problem that started her out of the church.

Larry didn't start the project, but you're right in that he did fund it, and the Larry H. Miller Foundation continues to fund it.

 

His obituary cited his support for the project as one of the accomplishments he was proudest of.

[Tacenda]

Larry didn't start the project, but you're right in that he did fund it, and the Larry H. Miller Foundation continues to fund it.

His obituary cited his support for the project as one of the accomplishments he was proudest of.

Sorry, I should have checked my facts. Did you happen to watch the special? I worry I may have got more facts wrong. And of course I was going off my memory, which lately has been failing me.

[DBMormon]

“Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the Welfare of Zion…. "  2 Ne. 26:29.

 

I have noticed that websites and organizations purporting to lend a hand to the "outcast and downtrodden" among us also ask for donations and sell products.  The explanation is that their charitable "service" costs money.  Dehlin for example made a nice little wage, paying his graduate school and "living" costs.  Bill Reel is another, who asks for donations and even has a "products" page where he sells his own work. http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/products/

 

I think they would contend that they are seeking Zion’s welfare…trying to help and lift.  But then, isn’t it also true that, according to Matthew 6:24, you “cannot serve both God and mammon?”  How are these people doing anything but serving mammon, in the name of God no less, where money is passing hands?  Is the fact that their self-proclaimed poverty or proffer that they do not make “much” really a defense?  Does it matter?

 

Personally, I stay away from anyone using the "compassionate insider" persona that has a shopping card and a credit card slide.  If you want to be a servant of compassion, do your home teaching, say I. 

 

At what point does this "service" cross the line to priestcraft.  Or is there even a line to cross?  Is this not also approaching blasphemy?

FairMormon asks for donations as well and they are a 501C3 (Which I am as well) are you lumping them in this group and if not what is the difference?

[DBMormon]

Beats me. It costs money to do a podcast, so unless someone has money to burn, it's not unreasonable to ask for donations to defray the costs. You've probably crossed the line if you're using the money to put a down payment on a house.

which I haven't..... lol

[DBMormon]

I am speaking specifically to people that market their websites to vulnerable types of people...the abused, the disaffected, etc. Now, I don't doubt that many people truly want to help others, but there is also a great risk that they prey on susceptible persons.  On its face, their "service" is in direct conflict with their personal gain.  For example, Bill Reel's website states that it exists to "strengthening feeble knees and lifting hands that hang."  I guess we should ask, who's arms and knees is he trying to help?  His own?  I think Reel's head got big after he was made a Bishop, got a little air time with John Dehlin, and thought "I can do this too!"  And now, he's of the mind that a "personal visit from Bill" is marketable.  Gag!

FairMormon does every single thing you just spoke about.  Please show your biases have a real moral stand and announce that you see FairMormon as in the same group or please give me a defining difference