Dehlin, Reel, And Other Do-Gooders Asking For Money To Do...good.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm not on record as saying they've hidden much of anything, just to remind you. But if that is the main issue, then it should be approached carefully and empathetically. Why do they feel this way, and how can we help? "It's your fault, not the church's" is a non-starter.

 

In a one-on-one situation, I would likely agree with you.

 

If it's a public forum, such as the Internet with its global reach of potentially millions, the more urgent priority is to dispell the false information at its source.

 

 

IF someone does feel that way, shouldn't you try to find out why they do?

 

Yes, and if I can correct a misunderstanding, I will likely try to do that. I don't see that as either unkind or unproductive.

 

I think we are repeating ourselves. Probably time to move on.

[HappyJackWagon]

Just don't go to Carthage itself and ask the trained missionaries about the actual events including the pistol.

Ha, that's funny. I've done exactly that. The missionaries were talking about the brutal attack on the defenseless prisoners so I asked about the weapons Joseph and the others had. The missionary (a senior sister) bore testimony about how they were passive like lambs in the slaughter. When I later mentioned the gun  to her privately so she would be better informed she said that is a folk tale told to gain sympathy for the mob.

 

It wasn't her fault. She just didn't know. And she was from Salt Lake City. Yes, it was a brutal attack but it wasn't defensless. Sadly, the tour guides are woefully uninformed at Carthage.

[Scott Lloyd]

Ha, that's funny. I've done exactly that. The missionaries were talking about the brutal attack on the defenseless prisoners so I asked about the weapons Joseph and the others had. The missionary (a senior sister) bore testimony about how they were passive like lambs in the slaughter. When I later mentioned the gun  to her privately so she would be better informed she said that is a folk tale told to gain sympathy for the mob.

 

It wasn't her fault. She just didn't know. And she was from Salt Lake City. Yes, it was a brutal attack but it wasn't defensless. Sadly, the tour guides are woefully uninformed at Carthage.

How many years ago was that? And has that repeatedly been your experience to the point you can make a blanket generalization such as the above?

 

As I said, my own experience counters that.

 

And for the record, I have been present at the yearly Seminar for New Missionary Training Center Presidents and Visitors' Center Directors on an occasion when Elder Marlin K. Jensen and, later, his successor, Elder Steven E. Snow have spoken to newly called visitors' center directors. Each man has stressed the importance of giving accurate information at Church historic sites.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

In a one-on-one situation, I would likely agree with you.

 

If it's a public forum, such as the Internet with its global reach of potentially millions, the more urgent priority is to dispell the false information at its source.

 

Yes, and if I can correct a misunderstanding, I will likely try to do that. I don't see that as either unkind or unproductive.

 

I think we are repeating ourselves. Probably time to move on.

I thought you enjoyed my pontificating.

[ALarson]

In a one-on-one situation, I would likely agree with you.

 

If it's a public forum, such as the Internet with its global reach of potentially millions, the more urgent priority is to dispell the false information at its source.

I don't really agree with this, but that's your prerogative to handle things this way.  I'm pretty much the same here as I am in dealing with others in person.

 

It never does any good to immediately call someone lazy or blame them for not knowing what hasn't been regularly taught over the years at church or from the pulpit, IMO (here or in person).

Edited August 12, 2015 by ALarson

[HappyJackWagon]

How many years ago was that? And has that repeatedly been your experience to the point you can make a blanket generalization such as the above?

 

As I said, my own experience counters that.

This particular experience was last August. I go to Carthage at least once per year and while this was the only time a missionary bore testimony against use of weapons, I've had other experiences where they've been factually inaccurate. I understand they're on a very tight script but they really are unprepared to answer some very basic questions.

[ALarson]

Ha, that's funny. I've done exactly that. The missionaries were talking about the brutal attack on the defenseless prisoners so I asked about the weapons Joseph and the others had. The missionary (a senior sister) bore testimony about how they were passive like lambs in the slaughter. When I later mentioned the gun  to her privately so she would be better informed she said that is a folk tale told to gain sympathy for the mob.

 

It wasn't her fault. She just didn't know. And she was from Salt Lake City. Yes, it was a brutal attack but it wasn't defensless. Sadly, the tour guides are woefully uninformed at Carthage.

I've encountered the same experience with guides at the SLC temple square.  Ask about the masonic symbols on the temple or ask about Joseph's polygamous wives (don't even attempt to ask about him living polyandry). They don't know what you're talking about (in my experience) and just bear their testimony.  But, I cut them some slack as I know they're just young missionaries doing their best.

Edited August 12, 2015 by ALarson

[rockpond]

No, he is just the host of the coolest LDS podcast ever - http://mormondiscussionpodcast.org(just interviewed D Michael Quinn and it was awesome)

 

I just finished listening to your Quinn podcast.  Great stuff!  Thanks.  I'm not sure what MormonManiac's complaint with it is.  It wasn't as if you hid the fact that Quinn had been excommunicated.  For the first 80 minutes or so he sounded like the most faithful of LDS apologists as he passionately plead with your listeners to not let things like seer stones and folk magic interfere with their faith in the restoration.

 

I loved his message on what we can do better for LGBT members.

 

I'm glad you asked him the last question about his excommunication.  And his response about expecting an apology was perfect!

 

Thanks again!

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't really agree with this, but that's your prerogative to handle things this way.  I'm pretty much the same here as I am in dealing with others in person.

 

It never does any good to immediately call someone lazy or blame them for not knowing what hasn't been regularly taught over the years at church or from the pulpit, IMO (here or in person).

But it does do good to counter false information and thus hinder or prevent its proliferation.

[ALarson]

But it does do good to counter false information and thus hinder or prevent its proliferation.

Yes, a good discussion is always welcome (at least I feel this way).  But playing the blame game isn't very productive from either side if you're trying to help them.

[jkwilliams]

I don't really agree with this, but that's your prerogative to handle things this way.  I'm pretty much the same here as I am in dealing with others in person.

I try to behave the same way wherever I am, too. I don't see any reason not to.

 

It never does any good to immediately call someone lazy or blame them for not knowing what hasn't been regularly taught over the years at church or from the pulpit, IMO (here or in person).

Yep.

[thesometimesaint]

It sounds to me like your default position is that their issues with the church are not only silly but already so hardened that you can't help. I cannot think of a more counterproductive approach, well, other than the taunting I've been seeing the last few days. 

 

It hurts to have your worldview collapse, even just a little, and it sure doesn't help when people trivialize what you're going through. I know that's not your intent, but that is how it comes across. Not long before we left Utah, my wife ran into my mission president, a man I have always admired and loved, while she was out shopping. He asked her about me, and she explained my situation. He asked for some specifics, and when she said a few things she understood, he laughed and said, "Well, that's just silly. You tell him to call me right away and I'll straighten him out!" I can't tell you how much that hurt. Obviously, it hurts less when it's a stranger online, but still. 

 

I never said they didn't/don't have issues with the Church, its teachings, or ts leaders. I don't know if they were/are so hardened I couldn't/can't help. Just that I wasn't able to. Perhaps that was/is a failing on my part. I can neither get sanctimonious nor beat myself up over it. However I am truly sorry they couldn't overcome their issues. Christ himself had experience with people who left him during his mortal ministry, over something he taught. I'm sure he felt their pain, and tried his best to keep them, but to no avail.

 

All I can do is give people information. I try my hardest to give accurate information in a helpful and friendly manner. What others do with that information is up to them. As I said many people have/had issues with 19th Century Mormon polygamy. Either never joining or leaving the Church over it. Learning about polygamy in history can help, and gaining/keeping a testimony of JS as a prophet of God helps even more.

[jkwilliams]

I never said they didn't/don't have issues with the Church, its teachings, or ts leaders. I don't know if they were/are so hardened I couldn't/can't help. Just that I wasn't able to. Perhaps that was/is a failing on my part. I can neither get sanctimonious nor beat myself up over it. However I am truly sorry they couldn't overcome their issues. Christ himself had experience with people who left him during his mortal ministry, over something he taught. I'm sure he felt their pain, and tried his best to keep them, but to no avail.

 

All I can do is give people information. I try my hardest to give accurate information in a helpful and friendly manner. What others do with that information is up to them. As I said many people have/had issues with 19th Century Mormon polygamy. Either never joining or leaving the Church over it. Learning about polygamy in history can help, and gaining/keeping a testimony of JS as a prophet of God helps even more.

I'm sorry if I misread what you wrote. I would hope my reasons for leaving are more substantial than changing magazine names, but even if that were the issue, I would hope someone would try to understand why that would be an issue and help resolve it. Sounds like what you did.

If I were a believer and wanted to help people hold onto their faith, I would start with the default assumption that they are good people with good intentions who want to know and do the right thing. I've met a lot of people who were genuinely interested in helping me overcome my issues with the church and who treated me kindly. I would not for a minute recommend that people struggling with their doubts go to online boards because for every compassionate person, there's at least one more who is not.

[ERayR]

I thought you enjoyed my pontificating.

 

For now I can put up with yours if you can put up with mine.

Edited August 12, 2015 by ERayR

[thesometimesaint]

I'm sorry if I misread what you wrote. I would hope my reasons for leaving are more substantial than changing magazine names, but even if that were the issue, I would hope someone would try to understand why that would be an issue and help resolve it. Sounds like what you did.

If I were a believer and wanted to help people hold onto their faith, I would start with the default assumption that they are good people with good intentions who want to know and do the right thing. I've met a lot of people who were genuinely interested in helping me overcome my issues with the church and who treated me kindly. I would not for a minute recommend that people struggling with their doubts go to online boards because for every compassionate person, there's at least one more who is not.

 

I'm sure it was far more substantial. I still have lots of questions about the Church, its teachings, and its leaders. I won't be content until I know all that God knows. though I doubt that will be anytime in my lifetime. But I have faith that I will someday know. Something like Gandalf talking to Frodo; You can learn all there is about Mormons in a month and 44 years later I still get surprised.  

 

The internet is horrible at that type of thing. But if it is not too personal tell me your concern and I'll see if I can help.

[Rain]

But it does do good to counter false information and thus hinder or prevent its proliferation.

I've found you can do both and usually in the same post and if not then the same thread.

[jkwilliams]

I'm sure it was far more substantial. I still have lots of questions about the Church, its teachings, and its leaders. I won't be content until I know all that God knows. though I doubt that will be anytime in my lifetime. But I have faith that I will someday know. Something like Gandalf talking to Frodo; You can learn all there is about Mormons in a month and 44 years later I still get surprised.  

 

The internet is horrible at that type of thing. But if it is not too personal tell me your concern and I'll see if I can help.

I think discussing why I left would be a violation of board rules.

[Scott Lloyd]

I've found you can do both and usually in the same post and if not then the same thread.

Thank you.

 

It means a great deal to me to hear that.

 

ETA:

 

Oops. I just realized you were probably speaking generically and not complimenting me personally. 

 

Oh well. Good comment anyway.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Guest]

“Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the Welfare of Zion…. "  2 Ne. 26:29.

 

I have noticed that websites and organizations purporting to lend a hand to the "outcast and downtrodden" among us also ask for donations and sell products.  The explanation is that their charitable "service" costs money.  Dehlin for example made a nice little wage, paying his graduate school and "living" costs.  Bill Reel is another, who asks for donations and even has a "products" page where he sells his own work. http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/products/

 

I think they would contend that they are seeking Zion’s welfare…trying to help and lift.  But then, isn’t it also true that, according to Matthew 6:24, you “cannot serve both God and mammon?”  How are these people doing anything but serving mammon, in the name of God no less, where money is passing hands?  Is the fact that their self-proclaimed poverty or proffer that they do not make “much” really a defense?  Does it matter?

 

Personally, I stay away from anyone using the "compassionate insider" persona that has a shopping card and a credit card slide.  If you want to be a servant of compassion, do your home teaching, say I. 

 

At what point does this "service" cross the line to priestcraft.  Or is there even a line to cross?  Is this not also approaching blasphemy?

Having grown up in Georgia (the Bible Belt) one thing that appeals to Southern converts is having seen first hand how so many a Southern (nondenominational pastor) have turned religion and under the banner of helping others into a multi-billion dollar business. Thankfully many are no being investigated by the IRS, the FBI and many imprisoned for their enormous excess in wealth...as the only poor being helped where themselves. It still happens everywhere, but the Southern pastors have turned it into a science. I read a book once about most of these pastors who actually started out small and with the intent to do good, and even did good, until they found that the money coming in was very hard for members or the IRS to track. Matt Slick has turned faiths and anti-faiths and the bikering that follows into big money...even allowing smaller players into using PayPal into individuals to collect money under the heading of buying computers, printers and other equipment (even Video cameras for those you see around Temple Square) all under the headings of "Ministeries". So many use the name of Jesus like a credit card it is heartbreaking.

So no one should be surprised that those disaffected by the Church will begin to ask for money from other disaffected members...and they will get it! Money, that just like other "faiths" cannot be easily tracked, by donors, members or the IRS, which will only seek 501c status only after they have tucked away into various accounts. My mother for a time got sucked in by the televangelists and snake oil salesmen, as you may tell by my tone. In all of my adult experience, none profit more than when the take of Mormonism.

Nuff said

[DBMormon]

"and yet you seem unwilling to also acknowledge that while you wouldn't write such a blog post that deep inside you also agree that specific leaders have said or done things that have been hurtful and harmful and the only way I can get you on record agreeing with me on specifics, even though what I said was troubling, is to search for hours and hours in multiple locations for your stance"

And this is why I won't play your game. You have already written what script means no matter what I say. You tell me what I am feeling and thinking instead of letting me speak for myself.

Let me correct you.

I am troubled by your analogy of the Church as an abusive father. I am not troubled at all by the questions you challenged me with. i have given answers with no hesitation in the past when people were actually engaging me in converstation and not applying mind reading games and pressure tactics and bizarre interpretations even before reading what I wrote.

FairMormon has problems with its members who promote overblown analogies and claims that denigrate leaders and the Church.

You should actually read what is written at FM sometimes and pay attention to our conferences. That you are this clueless with the dynamics of FairMormon speaks to what you paid attention to while you were there...pretty much the same thing that is happening here.

What you are throwing out is an interpretation.

I would resign the moment I could not fully express my opinion in public as I do in private.

And if your dozen friends are sharing information after signing the confidentiality agreement which states one is to keep the list discussion on the lists, then they are liars and need to remove themselves from the list. That you are bragging about them sharing confidential material with you says a lot.

Also speaking ill of another in the shadows probably isn't too honorable either.  so I guess it goes both ways

[DBMormon]

So it is emotional abuse to learn that JS had a gun at Carthage and you were not taught that in primary?

 

Talk about trivializing real abuse.

 

 

How can anyone claim abuse from the church? What specifically is abusive that the church does?

where did any of us say the gun thing was abuse?  I am talking more serious stuff.  And I would classify any person in this faith who has lost a marriage or committed suicide or found themselves homeless due to church teachings to be abuse and while some here may claim there is no connection of such, many others would and I validate their truth.

[DBMormon]

It might not even be dishonest or wrong, per se. Everyone, of necessity, must be selective about what he says, because it is simply not possible to say everything. One may honestly believe something is not germane to the conversation or the lesson or the talk or the lecture or whatever.

 

That's why we all must be proactive in seeking knowledge, not waiting to be spoon-fed.

 

But calling omission abuse is definitely beyond the pale.

I go beyond just the omitted.  What I classify as abuse is more than that.  you all are neglecting to mention the abuses I speak of in the article.  something says you would rather pick on the weakest example rather than the strongest.

[ERayR]

I go beyond just the omitted.  What I classify as abuse is more than that.  you all are neglecting to mention the abuses I speak of in the article.  something says you would rather pick on the weakest example rather than the strongest.

 

I would submit that either you have no idea what abuse is or you are deliberately resorting to hyperbole.  If it is the latter I say shame on you.

[HappyJackWagon]

I would submit that either you have no idea what abuse is or you are deliberately resorting to hyperbole.  If it is the latter I say shame on you.

Obviously, coercing young girls into "marital" relationships with fear of destruction or promises of eternal salvation could never be considered abusive.

[Brian 2.0]

Having grown up in Georgia (the Bible Belt) one thing that appeals to Southern converts is having seen first hand how so many a Southern (nondenominational pastor) have turned religion and under the banner of helping others into a multi-billion dollar business. Thankfully many are no being investigated by the IRS, the FBI and many imprisoned for their enormous excess in wealth...as the only poor being helped where themselves. It still happens everywhere, but the Southern pastors have turned it into a science. I read a book once about most of these pastors who actually started out small and with the intent to do good, and even did good, until they found that the money coming in was very hard for members or the IRS to track. Matt Slick has turned faiths and anti-faiths and the bikering that follows into big money...even allowing smaller players into using PayPal into individuals to collect money under the heading of buying computers, printers and other equipment (even Video cameras for those you see around Temple Square) all under the headings of "Ministeries". So many use the name of Jesus like a credit card it is heartbreaking.

So no one should be surprised that those disaffected by the Church will begin to ask for money from other disaffected members...and they will get it! Money, that just like other "faiths" cannot be easily tracked, by donors, members or the IRS, which will only seek 501c status only after they have tucked away into various accounts. My mother for a time got sucked in by the televangelists and snake oil salesmen, as you may tell by my tone. In all of my adult experience, none profit more than when the take of Mormonism.

Nuff said

 

Are you talking about the LDS church here?