"the Church Has Never Been Stronger" -- Elder Cook

[JulieM]

And if the Church operated on that principle the gold plates would be available for study to all comers.

And that would be a bad thing?

[Tacenda]

Read recently that a mission president was concerned about the 50 % inactivity rate of returned missionaries, is this that big of a problem?

[Scott Lloyd]

Read recently that a mission president was concerned about the 50 % inactivity rate of returned missionaries, is this that big of a problem?

Instead of merely rumor mongering, you should document such things.

[jwhitlock]

And that would be a bad thing?

Yes.

[The Nehor]

And that would be a bad thing?

I assume so or the Angel would have left them.

[bcuzbcuz]

But as I've been at pains to point out here, the burden is not on Elder Cook or the Church to provide the numbers and statistics. The burden is on the accusers.

Say what? Huh? Who?

The only, ONLY source of actual statistics is from the church. Elder Cook's statement was given without any statistics. His comment, regardless of how honest he is as a person, did not provide any numbers to back his statement up. Therefore his statement is as valid as any of the naysayers.

[The Nehor]

Say what? Huh? Who?

The only, ONLY source of actual statistics is from the church. Elder Cook's statement was given without any statistics. His comment, regardless of how honest he is as a person, did not provide any numbers to back his statement up. Therefore his statement is as valid as any of the naysayers.

Uhhhhhh.....no.

[Scott Lloyd]

Say what? Huh? Who?

The only, ONLY source of actual statistics is from the church. Elder Cook's statement was given without any statistics. His comment, regardless of how honest he is as a person, did not provide any numbers to back his statement up. Therefore his statement is as valid as any of the naysayers.

Then I repeat what I said before: If the naysayers, for whatever reason,  lack data to back up their assertions about mass apostasy from the Church then they darn well better forbear from making such assertions. And you ought to think more critically about what they are saying before swallowing it whole.

 

Meanwhile, Elder Cook's statement absolutely is more valid than the naysayers' because he is in a position to observe what they cannot observe and is privy to information they don't have. And he is not obligated to prove anything until the accusers have backed up their accusations.

 

I'll use the same analogy with you. If you were falsely accused of beating your children, would you think it fair to assume a priori you were guilty until you could prove your innocence? Or would it be the fair thing to first expect the accusers to prove their accusations?

 

This principle is so elementary, I am puzzled by the inability of some here to get it.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[cinepro]

Then I repeat what I said before: If the naysayers, for whatever reason,  lack data to back up their assertions about mass apostasy from the Church then they darn well better forbear from making such assertions. And you ought to think more critically about what they are saying before swallowing it whole.

 

Meanwhile, Elder Cook's statement absolutely is more valid than the naysayers' because he is in a position to observe what they cannot observe and is privy to information they don't have. And he is not obligated to prove anything until the accusers have backed up their accusations.

 

What's interesting is the number of assumptions that are being made about Elder Cook's statement.  We don't know what data he was shown (if any).  We don't know the scope or range of the data, or how he was defining such loose terms.  He simply made a claim.

 

It would certainly be nice if he had studied the numbers, made some spreadsheets and had someone check his figures.  But it could have just as well been something he overheard in the elevator at the COB.

 

Say what you will about Dehlin's survey, but at least he showed his work.  You can criticize the survey because you can see the questions, and you have a good idea of his sample pool.  If Dehlin just came out and said "I conducted a secret survey, and the Church is weaker than ever", some might take his word for it, but they would be doing the same thing as those who expect us to just take Elder Cook's word for it. 

 

I suspect the biggest clue to the discongruity is the claim that the percentage leaving is "greatly reduced."  As long as the Church is so admittedly generous in its accounting for membership, I would expect the number of people who actually go through the effort to formally resign to be a smaller and smaller fraction of the overall membership number. 

 

But this could be a little misleading, because from what I can tell, those who actually send in a letter are usually leaving behind an active membership (as well as usually having been a tithe payer, and even possibly taking their entire family out with them).  Losing an active, tithe-paying family is much, much more damaging to the Church than losing an inactive, non-tithe paying "member" when it comes to the "strength" of the Church.  So there are a couple of different statistics involved there, none of which the Church is willing to share.

 

So, again, "yay!" if the Church is being successful in retaining more people than in the past, especially since the widespread adoption of the internet.  If this is truly happening, then I would classify it as a modern miracle on par with Jesus multiplying the loaves and fishes. 

[bluebell]

So, again, "yay!" if the Church is being successful in retaining more people than in the past, especially since the widespread adoption of the internet. If this is truly happening, then I would classify it as a modern miracle on par with Jesus multiplying the loaves and fishes.

The Spirit is just as capable of converting people now as He has ever been.

But maybe it is a miracle that so many people are still capable of hearing Him. The seed is always the same but the soil definitely isn't.

[Tacenda]

Instead of merely rumor mongering, you should document such things.

Sorry, I was unable to link at that time.  But can now.    http://barerecord.blogspot.com/2014_09_05_archive.html

 

Here is part of the blog:  

 

276: IS OUR CHURCH MILES WIDE.. BUT ONLY INCHES DEEP?

 

A couple of weeks ago I attended BYU Education week. One of the speakers was Thomas Wayment, a Professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU and the publications director at the Religious Studies Center. He is currently serving as a Bishopric counselor. He shared in his first class that the Church is estimating right now that 60% of all returned missionaries will leave the church. They say that of the 60% that leave the Church, roughly 20% of those will come back. We are retaining of all those who serve missions only around half. He said that these statistics were given at a recent Leadership Training Meeting about six months ago, but are not published..But he didn’t think that means that this information was secret or not to be shared. Another statistic that he gave was that only 12 to 15% of young men actually serve missions. Those are not good numbers. So basically, with the current hastening of the work with over 80,000 missionaries serving, if these numbers are accurate, a little less than half end up leaving the Church or becoming inactive during their life.

 

In an article on msn.com ( LINK ) the following was reported, "While an estimated 40 percent of returned missionaries become inactive sometime after completing their mission, only 2 percent become apostates, meaning that they request to have their names removed from church rolls, or are formally excommunicated."

 

A recent study in 2013 at Utah Valley University ( LINK ) found that nearly three quarters of missionaries who return home early experience a deep sense of failure.

What is happening?  

A friend of mine sent me a article written by Hal Lindsey, an American evangelist and Christian writer, which said the following, "The modern church is miles wide and inches deep. We try to convince the world that they should accept us because we are like them, not because we have the answer or because we stand for something greater." He went on to describe today's lukewarm Church. It isn't cold enough to be easily identified as a false Church that has lost its fundamental purpose.... and it is not hot enough to preach the Gospel and make disciples no matter the cost in persecution and sufferings for Christ's sake. We have forgotten that it is either all about Him or not at all about Him."

Is statement only apply to the other Christian denominations or can it be said about our Church as well?

[rockpond]

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't believe Elder Cook saw himself as engaging in argumentation or going head-to-head with antagonists and cynics, but rather, as offering assurance to people like me who love him and the other Brethren and are inclined to trust his honesty and competence.

If Elder Cook spoke the truth (and I'm inclined to believe that he did), the losses are not due to an inordinately high level of name removals. He directly contradicted that notion, in fact.

I was just pointing out that while you insist that everyone else show data to support their positions, Elder Cook has not done that either.

And the data that we all have access to does not provide any backing to his statement.

[rockpond]

Then I repeat what I said before: If the naysayers, for whatever reason, lack data to back up their assertions about mass apostasy from the Church then they darn well better forbear from making such assertions. And you ought to think more critically about what they are saying before swallowing it whole.

Meanwhile, Elder Cook's statement absolutely is more valid than the naysayers' because he is in a position to observe what they cannot observe and is privy to information they don't have. And he is not obligated to prove anything until the accusers have backed up their accusations.

I'll use the same analogy with you. If you were falsely accused of beating your children, would you think it fair to assume a priori you were guilty until you could prove your innocence? Or would it be the fair thing to first expect the accusers to prove their accusations?

This principle is so elementary, I am puzzled by the inability of some here to get it.

You seem to have taken a very adversarial approach to this. I don't even know who these accusers are. Elder Cook, you, I... We are all a part of the church. And many of us here just wish to understand what is happening and whether the experience we are having in our own sphere in the church is consistent with what is happening elsewhere.

[Darren10]

Let me help you....my comment was hyperbole....

No doubt!!!

[Stargazer]

I think you have no idea what or what my moods are. The judge not that you are not judged may apply a bit here. And yes it was personal. And yor prediction was wrong.

 

I apologize then. 

[Stargazer]

I try to avoid labeling or judging what or who someone is based on interactions on a message board. Now I have done that? I just did with Bobbieware's post above and commented on what I have seen as a repeated pattern. Maybe you, stargazer and others see a pattern in me. I think I try to be even in my approach but perhaps I fail more than I think. It does seem to me though that any criticism can be perceived by many here as the person exhibiting anger, bitterness, a troubled soul, etc. maybe I am more strident than I think I am. I do challange the thought process and the methodology for truth determination that many here use. Maybe because I used to use it myself and I think it has betrayed me so I am suspect of it now.

Am I a troubled soul . I don't think so, I still mourn what is lost to me at times but I think the pain is worth it for truths sake. I still seek and am not finding perhaps what I hope to find. But in many ways I am happier and more peaceful than I was as a full belevier in the LDS faith. Perhaps my biggest frustration is I find it difficult given family, church and socials constraints that are still tied very much to the LDS church and culture to be fully authentic in what I share. Perhaps that comes out here some. And yes there still at times is some anger towards the institution for various reasons I think best left unsaid and especially since this thread is about something else and I am off topic.

 

Thanks for that, T.  Believe it or not it makes me feel much more comfortable with you.  I will try to be more forbearing and thoughtful in all of my responses to everyone from now on.

[readstoomuch]

Sorry, I was unable to link at that time.  But can now.    http://barerecord.blogspot.com/2014_09_05_archive.html

 

Here is part of the blog:  

 

276: IS OUR CHURCH MILES WIDE.. BUT ONLY INCHES DEEP?

 

A couple of weeks ago I attended BYU Education week. One of the speakers was Thomas Wayment, a Professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU and the publications director at the Religious Studies Center. He is currently serving as a Bishopric counselor. He shared in his first class that the Church is estimating right now that 60% of all returned missionaries will leave the church. They say that of the 60% that leave the Church, roughly 20% of those will come back. We are retaining of all those who serve missions only around half. He said that these statistics were given at a recent Leadership Training Meeting about six months ago, but are not published..But he didn’t think that means that this information was secret or not to be shared. Another statistic that he gave was that only 12 to 15% of young men actually serve missions. Those are not good numbers. So basically, with the current hastening of the work with over 80,000 missionaries serving, if these numbers are accurate, a little less than half end up leaving the Church or becoming inactive during their life. 

In an article on msn.com ( LINK ) the following was reported, "While an estimated 40 percent of returned missionaries become inactive sometime after completing their mission, only 2 percent become apostates, meaning that they request to have their names removed from church rolls, or are formally excommunicated." 

A recent study in 2013 at Utah Valley University ( LINK ) found that nearly three quarters of missionaries who return home early experience a deep sense of failure.

What is happening?  

A friend of mine sent me a article written by Hal Lindsey, an American evangelist and Christian writer, which said the following, "The modern church is miles wide and inches deep. We try to convince the world that they should accept us because we are like them, not because we have the answer or because we stand for something greater." He went on to describe today's lukewarm Church. It isn't cold enough to be easily identified as a false Church that has lost its fundamental purpose.... and it is not hot enough to preach the Gospel and make disciples no matter the cost in persecution and sufferings for Christ's sake. We have forgotten that it is either all about Him or not at all about Him."

Is statement only apply to the other Christian denominations or can it be said about our Church as well?

I just don`t believe those statistics, even though I have seen by experience that more missionaries dropout after their missions or come home early. If these statistics are correct, then it is much different than the returned missionary studies they did in the 70s. Yes, young adults are leaving churches and we may be doing better in the Church then other denominations. A great ecumenical activity would be to work as churches and synagogues to keep young adults in church. For us, that means that it isn`t always about them converting to our church. Since we have both secular and religious anti-mormons, it would be great if Evangelicals quit condemning us. LDS youth who leave the Church are more likely to dropout of religion period. I would be willing to bet that Jews and Catholics are similar. As a body of Christ we could work together to encourage these young people who have secular doubts constantly handed to them. The power of being united about this one topic would be huge.

One of the messages that youth need to understand is that not all of the answers are provided by science. Science isn`t really good about teaching you how to live your life so that it is happy. Studies show that people that give their time or substance to charity are happier than those who don`t. Would secular studies be able to convince people to do that without a religious context? Many see that as being provided by the government and that is why they pay taxes. Of course the studies show they would be happier without some of their money even after taxes. They would have to give up worldly possessions.

[canard78]

Here is part of the blog:

276: IS OUR CHURCH MILES WIDE.. BUT ONLY INCHES DEEP?

A couple of weeks ago I attended BYU Education week. One of the speakers was Thomas Wayment, a Professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU and the publications director at the Religious Studies Center. He is currently serving as a Bishopric counselor. He shared in his first class that the Church is estimating right now that 60% of all returned missionaries will leave the church. They say that of the 60% that leave the Church, roughly 20% of those will come back. We are retaining of all those who serve missions only around half. He said that these statistics were given at a recent Leadership Training Meeting about six months ago, but are not published..But he didn’t think that means that this information was secret or not to be shared.

In an article on msn.com ( LINK ) the following was reported, "While an estimated 40 percent of returned missionaries become inactive sometime after completing their mission, only 2 percent become apostates, meaning that they request to have their names removed from church rolls, or are formally excommunicated."

A recent study in 2013 at Utah Valley University ( LINK ) found that nearly three quarters of missionaries who return home early experience a deep sense of failure.

Neither of the links go to a page. I've tried finding them through other searches. There are plenty of pages referencing them and sourcing them (especially the MSN one) but I can't see the page. I'd like to see the source for those claims as I'm dubious (see Scott, I'm at least consistent).

Having said that, I do think that activity rates are a far more representative measure of strength than resignations. People can leave the church and never remove their name. I know 100s of people who have left but never get round to resigning officially.

[why me]

 

Sorry, I was unable to link at that time.  But can now.    http://barerecord.blogspot.com/2014_09_05_archive.html

 

Here is part of the blog:  

 

276: IS OUR CHURCH MILES WIDE.. BUT ONLY INCHES DEEP?

 

A couple of weeks ago I attended BYU Education week. One of the speakers was Thomas Wayment, a Professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU and the publications director at the Religious Studies Center. He is currently serving as a Bishopric counselor. He shared in his first class that the Church is estimating right now that 60% of all returned missionaries will leave the church. They say that of the 60% that leave the Church, roughly 20% of those will come back. We are retaining of all those who serve missions only around half. He said that these statistics were given at a recent Leadership Training Meeting about six months ago, but are not published..But he didn’t think that means that this information was secret or not to be shared. Another statistic that he gave was that only 12 to 15% of young men actually serve missions. Those are not good numbers. So basically, with the current hastening of the work with over 80,000 missionaries serving, if these numbers are accurate, a little less than half end up leaving the Church or becoming inactive during their life.

 

In an article on msn.com ( LINK ) the following was reported, "While an estimated 40 percent of returned missionaries become inactive sometime after completing their mission, only 2 percent become apostates, meaning that they request to have their names removed from church rolls, or are formally excommunicated."

 

A recent study in 2013 at Utah Valley University ( LINK ) found that nearly three quarters of missionaries who return home early experience a deep sense of failure.

What is happening?  

A friend of mine sent me a article written by Hal Lindsey, an American evangelist and Christian writer, which said the following, "The modern church is miles wide and inches deep. We try to convince the world that they should accept us because we are like them, not because we have the answer or because we stand for something greater." He went on to describe today's lukewarm Church. It isn't cold enough to be easily identified as a false Church that has lost its fundamental purpose.... and it is not hot enough to preach the Gospel and make disciples no matter the cost in persecution and sufferings for Christ's sake. We have forgotten that it is either all about Him or not at all about Him."

Is statement only apply to the other Christian denominations or can it be said about our Church as well?

 

The problem with these stats is that they seem not to be based in reality. So, for example, if the high rate of inactivity is true, many parents may be reluctant to send their sons and daughters on missions. I dont see this happening at this moment. However, I do caution missionaries at times to remember their spiritual experiences because they may be tested when they leave their mission. Missionary life is certainly not easy. And it is certainly demanding. And certainly young people when they come off their mission may do a 'freak' and become the opposite they were while on their mission. But it also has something to do with age. Men and Women are still quite young when they come off their mission. And as such, they begin to experience life in all its mysteries in their twenties. And since the world is very powerful, some may chose to live their wild oats etc. Not uncommon at all.

 

But I don't think that it is an epidemic nor is it the fault of the lds church. However, I do believe that when it does happen, it is looked upon as a rite of passage of the young to experience worldly pleasures before a return to the fold.

 

Also, it seems from the latest pew study religion is actually on the rise in the world and atheism and agnostism is on the decline, except in the USA.  What makes this a case of american exceptionalism is the absolute value on (legal) freedom regardless of the consequences that this freedom may have on society that seems to guide the USA. I am referring to the freedom to be whatever a person wants to be in terms of lifestyle choices. Not to mention the prevalance of identity politics in all this due to the media. But the utimate stress on individual values does play a role in downsizing the collective meta narrative which mormonism and other faiths stress in order to foster an emphasis on collective, community values.

 

Have you read anything positive about the lds church that you would like to share with us?

Edited April 6, 2015 by why me

[changed]

Hmmmm I just heard this.  Saying it does not make it so.

 

Denial does not help but hey that is ok.. Carry on.  If you think 30%-35% activity rate is fine, if you think losing many STRONG AND WELL OFF tithe payers is fine ok. 

 

I see my own Eastern USA ward and stake. Low converts, poor retention, most converts are not families and are lower in the economic status, maybe 40% attendance, no new wards or stakes in 25 years....

 

if you think all is well in Zion I have a scripture for you.

 

Hmmmm... our stake just split, we have new wards and new ward boundaries, and we still have to open up the overflow every Sunday (probably need to split again) - we're definitely seeing growth in Tx.  ... We have a few "strong and well off" (oil $) members down here too

[rodheadlee]

The ruckus over the Big Bang may be premature. People should wait until that piece of the jigsaw puzzle is fully complete before they stake their spiritual life on it, as there is a new model that shows there was no big bang, no singularity and the universe is eternal. No one is about to shout it from the roof tops though. it'll be buried as deep as the Hadron Collider.

 

http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html

 

 

edited to add: Here is an interesting tidbit: The question is, why did the BB theorists circle the wagons instead of dealing with the findings from the deep space observatory at Apache Ridge in New Mexico showing mature "granny" galaxies at the greatest distances, impossible for a universal age of 13.7 billion years?

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-03-particles-smaller-higgs-particle.html#jCp

 

 

It seems no one wants to let go of theories they have much time and money invested in. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by rodheadlee

[Tacenda]

The problem with these stats is that they seem not to be based in reality. So, for example, if the high rate of inactivity is true, many parents may be reluctant to send their sons and daughters on missions. I dont see this happening at this moment. However, I do caution missionaries at times to remember their spiritual experiences because they may be tested when they leave their mission. Missionary life is certainly not easy. And it is certainly demanding. And certainly young people when they come off their mission may do a 'freak' and become the opposite they were while on their mission. But it also has something to do with age. Men and Women are still quite young when they come off their mission. And as such, they begin to experience life in all its mysteries in their twenties. And since the world is very powerful, some may chose to live their wild oats etc. Not uncommon at all.

But I don't think that it is an epidemic nor is it the fault of the lds church. However, I do believe that when it does happen, it is looked upon as a rite of passage of the young to experience worldly pleasures before a return to the fold.

Also, it seems from the latest pew study religion is actually on the rise in the world and atheism and agnostism is on the decline, except in the USA. What makes this a case of american exceptionalism is the absolute value on (legal) freedom regardless of the consequences that this freedom may have on society that seems to guide the USA. I am referring to the freedom to be whatever a person wants to be in terms of lifestyle choices. Not to mention the prevalance of identity politics in all this due to the media. But the utimate stress on individual values does play a role in downsizing the collective meta narrative which mormonism and other faiths stress in order to foster an emphasis on collective, community values.

Have you read anything positive about the lds church that you would like to share with us?

Ok here goes.....conference was totally rad!!!

[Teancum]

Thanks for that, T.  Believe it or not it makes me feel much more comfortable with you.  I will try to be more forbearing and thoughtful in all of my responses to everyone from now on.

 

I appreciate it. And as noted I am sure I do get strident. I think it is the nature of message boards like this.  We all have passion about where we are at and what our views are.   I will try harder to do as you suggest as well.  Friendly reminders when I slip are welcome.

[Teancum]

Hmmmm... our stake just split, we have new wards and new ward boundaries, and we still have to open up the overflow every Sunday (probably need to split again) - we're definitely seeing growth in Tx.  ... We have a few "strong and well off" (oil $) members down here too

 

 

Is the growth due to converts or is it more that Texas seems to have a strong economy, oil was booming in the USA till recently and prices dropped.  What % is due to people moving in and due to people joining the church?

[bcuzbcuz]

Neither of the links go to a page. I've tried finding them through other searches. There are plenty of pages referencing them and sourcing them (especially the MSN one) but I can't see the page. I'd like to see the source for those claims as I'm dubious (see Scott, I'm at least consistent).

Having said that, I do think that activity rates are a far more representative measure of strength than resignations. People can leave the church and never remove their name. I know 100s of people who have left but never get round to resigning officially.

I, too, know those who have left the church physically and devotionally but who have never removed their name from church records. One man waited for his mother to die before going through the formal action of requesting his exit from church records. The question of why and timing is often difficult to analyze.

For example, one man left his wife and six daughters, for another woman in the ward (to whom he was home teacher) He has remained active in the church. The mother remarried and has remained active in the church. The six daughters, however, have come to view their parents change of partners as deeply disconcerting have all distanced themselves from the church. None of the daughters have removed their names from the church but actively, through discussions and the internet, criticize the church.