"the Church Has Never Been Stronger" -- Elder Cook

[carbon dioxide]

No, I'm hanging my hat on the information available on the internet, and the effect it's had on Church members that I've seen in my family, my wards, online, and as reflected in the Church's shift towards addressing faith-crisis issues in essays, firesides and conference talks.  I don't know what was happening in the 1970s, 80s or 90s that could have been even closely commensurate with that has happened in the last 15 years, so I just have to be skeptical.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I might be wrong, and honestly I think it would be great if fewer people were leaving the Church, but Elder Cook's claim is just a little light.  It's kind of like when apostles make claims about the "big bang".  Such comments are very interesting, but they're the start of the conversation, not the end of it.

Its is possible that both sides are right. More members might be leaving but those that remain are stronger.  Sort of like a 400 pound guy who loses weight.  As he burns off fat he gains muscle.  So when he is done instead of 400 pounds he is 275 pounds.  Lighter but more fit and in better health. 

[ALarson]

Its is possible that both sides are right. More members might be leaving but those that remain are stronger.  Sort of like a 400 pound guy who loses weight.  As he burns off fat he gains muscle.  So when he is done instead of 400 pounds he is 275 pounds.  Lighter but more fit and in better health. 

Great post.  I agree that this may be the case and maybe what Scott Lloyd is referring to when he states that Elder Cook was speaking of the church's "internal strength".

Edited April 5, 2015 by ALarson

[Robert F. Smith]

I do know that there were those who moved out of the area.  I'm not sure what the overall cause was (for the recent dissolving of a ward and also an entire stake).  I've wondered myself.  In my own ward we used to have to get to church at least 10-15 minutes early to even get a seat in the chapel, but now there are empty rows or partial rows during sacrament meeting.  I'm not aware of a huge amount of people moving out, but I'm not the membership clerk either.  I guess I could ask him though.

 

One thing I've wondered is whether or not those areas where people are reporting the forming of new wards and growth, is that from a surge in new baptisms are a surge of new or young families moving into the area?  Maybe people are leaving my area and moving to theirs?  Who knows?  I only know what's taking place in my ward and surrounding areas as far as numbers seem to be right now.

Yes, I can recall visiting a ward in San Bernardino which was left with just a few old members.  It was in a depressed area which was shifting ethnic composition from caucasian to hispanic.  This sort of thing once took place long ago in South Central Los Angeles, as a major ethnic shift took place and old Mormon wards disappeared.  Economic shifts might also drive people to new areas (especially with the recent Depression in the USA), and in which many younger people ended up in their parents' basements.  With the improvement in the economy, it then becomes possible to make another shift.   Also, over time, numerous small towns in the Great Plains have simply disappeared.  These can be huge demographic factors.

[Robert F. Smith]

No, I'm hanging my hat on the information available on the internet, and the effect it's had on Church members that I've seen in my family, my wards, online, and as reflected in the Church's shift towards addressing faith-crisis issues in essays, firesides and conference talks.  I don't know what was happening in the 1970s, 80s or 90s that could have been even closely commensurate with that has happened in the last 15 years, so I just have to be skeptical.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I might be wrong, and honestly I think it would be great if fewer people were leaving the Church, but Elder Cook's claim is just a little light.  It's kind of like when apostles make claims about the "big bang".  Such comments are very interesting, but they're the start of the conversation, not the end of it.

I too am skeptical of all that anecdotal information.  However, if the internet info is so shocking to some members, and if there is a winnowing of weak members because of it, are the consequent faith crises a permanent feature of the Mormon experience, and are the resultant apostasies permanent?  Or are we going to find more Don Bradley and Maxine Hanks scholars returning to the faith, wiser now for the experience?

 

Meanwhile, I'm not sure that Cook's assertions are in the same category with the Big Bang.

[Teancum]

Actually we can tell if we trust the people who have seen the data. If not then I guess we can choose to wallow in a mire of supposition, suspicion, and vague imaginings that we know more then those who do know. I choose the former.

See canard78's post above. He summarizes the issue well.

[Teancum]

You misread my post. Read it again.

Ah yes. Sorry.

[Scott Lloyd]

Well...I think there is room for discussion, observations and opinions.  

 

Are we talking about numbers and stats now or just internal strength as you stated?  I'm sure that Elder Cook feels strength from members as he travels to different areas of the church and also within his own dealings with leaders in Salt Lake.  I believe he is stating what he's seen.

 

I think he's basing his statement on more than that. He mentioned measurable and demonstrative indicators: Adults holding current temple recommends, those who pay full tithes, those who can qualify for full-time missions (more today than at any time in history, and indications are it's not just because of the change in ages of eligibility).

 

He's not talking just about gut feelings here.

 

But, I do believe that more people are going inactive than in previous years.  I just don't know if there is also an increase in resignations.  That's where the stats would be telling.  I also believe there are many more members who are still attending but do not fully believe anymore.  Those are the numbers that are difficult to discern.  

 

 

But where are your numbers and statistics? Elder Cook has a global perspective -- and a lawyer's mind for precision. Do you have those qualifications?

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Great post.  I agree that this may be the case and maybe what Scott Lloyd is referring to when he states that Elder Cook was speaking of the church's "internal strength".

What I'm referring to is what Elder Cook said. Here it is again:

 

          Some have asserted that more members are leaving the Church today, and that there is more doubt and unbelief than in the past.  This is simply not true.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger.  The number of members removing their names from the records of the Church has always been very small and is significantly less in recent years than in the past.  The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic.  Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger.  But, “Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God…”[ii]   We reach out to everyone.

Over the last 25 years the actual number of members leaving the Church has decreased and the Church has almost doubled in size.  The percentage leaving is greatly reduced.

[ii] D&C 18:10.

 

What I mean by "internal strength" is strength that exists independent of a growth rate or a convert-baptism rate.

 

As I said before the growth could stagnate (though I certainly hope it doesn't) and the Church could still remain internally strong.

 

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[canard78]

Do you make the same demand of those who are the ones in the first place who have claimed a mass exodus from the Church? They, after all, are the ones who started the whole controversy.

Until any evidence is offered by such naysayers I will take their assertions of an epic collapse with a pinch of salt. I'm certainly making no such claims.

Do you understand the concept of burden of proof?

Is a very basic concept in debate, logic and law.

And you don't have to be a journalist (or an attorney or logician) to understand it.

Essentially it is this: One person makes a charge or an allegation or an accusation (such as the "The Church of Jesus Christ is suffering a mass apostasy).

If the assertion remains unchallenged, it stands.

But if it is contradicted, then the one making the allegation must substantiate it with evidence, logic, reasoning, etc. Otherwise, it collapses from its own vacuity.

The one contradicting it can provide evidence for the contradiction if he chooses to do so. But he doesn't have to if the one making the claim has not substantiated that claim.

You didn't answer my question. Would you (or DN) follow up on the talk, report on the statement and ask the press office for additional information about it.

[Stargazer]

Ah such lovely personal attacks......

 

I'm sorry, but you seem to so blithely accept anything negative that you hear, put the most negative spin on things that are said (e.g. Elder Cook), that I cannot help but imagine you are a probably very personally nice person with a dark mood about anything connected to the church.  It was not a personal attack, it was a prediction based on what you yourself have shown in your posts. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Until any evidence is offered by such naysayers I will take their assertions of an epic collapse with a pinch of salt. I'm certainly making no such claims.

You didn't answer my question. Would you (or DN) follow up on the talk, report on the statement and ask the press office for additional information about it.

Conceivably, yes.

[rockpond]

But where are your numbers and statistics? Elder Cook has a global perspective -- and a lawyer's mind for precision. Do you have those qualifications?

 

Elder Cook didn't actually provide any numbers and statistics.  He made a qualitative statement with a vague footnote.

 

The data that they reported yesterday actually tells us that we're at a high level of deaths/removals (they don't give us the ability to separate out those categories).  And the data tells us that we are shrinking without convert baptisms.

Edited April 5, 2015 by rockpond

[Teancum]

This glorious Easter Sunday the world is graciously being offered the wondrous gift of an abundance of revelation and inspired counsel from on high, conveyed to man through living prophets of God. But then we see the embittered naysayers who are mired in foul muck and mud, futilely kicking against the pricks, while the wise and the humble gratefully bask in the Savior's cleansing and life-giving waters of life.

a full faithful and beleiving member started the thread. I assume he was interested in discussion. Are you? This is a discussion board. Your motive really seems to be to come here and complain about how awfull and bitter doubters, skeptics, questioners or apostates are. Many of your posts take a rather condemning tone. Those who question are low, slithering around in muck. You on the other hand drink the waters of life and bask in the light. Others are clouded and apparently in the dark.

If people who ask questions, debate and challange what you believe really bugs you as much as it seems why come to a discussion board at all?

[Teancum]

What numbers have been released by those making the claims he is countering? And why aren't people calling for those numbers?

How can people release data they have no access to?

[The Nehor]

How can people release data they have no access to?

Revelation.

[Teancum]

I'm sorry, but you seem to so blithely accept anything negative that you hear, put the most negative spin on things that are said (e.g. Elder Cook), that I cannot help but imagine you are a probably very personally nice person with a dark mood about anything connected to the church. It was not a personal attack, it was a prediction based on what you yourself have shown in your posts.

I think you have no idea what or what my moods are. The judge not that you are not judged may apply a bit here. And yes it was personal. And yor prediction was wrong. Edited April 5, 2015 by Teancum

[ALarson]

But where are your numbers and statistics?

Great question for both sides here.  So far, we have not seen any.  Where are Elder Cook's numbers and statistics?  Will the church share them so we can all have them?  I hope so.

[carbon dioxide]

I think you have no idea what or what my moods are. The judge not that you are not judged may apply a bit here. And yes it was personal. And yor prediction was wrong.

Perhaps I am guilty of judging as well but the tone of many of your comments I have at least entertained the idea in my mind that you are a troubled soul.  Its not a fair judgment as we all are far more than the contents of what we post online.  We present just a small fragment of our true selves here.   However I have to admit that I do get an impression based on the comments you do make  of which I have read that you seen to be ticked off  about something.  I don't normally get that from other people.  I only mention this as Stargazer mentioned it.  Perhaps I misinterpret you and the tone of your words.  If I do I am sorry.

Edited April 5, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Scott Lloyd]

Elder Cook didn't actually provide any numbers and statistics.  He made a qualitative statement with a vague footnote.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't believe Elder Cook saw himself as engaging in argumentation or going head-to-head with antagonists and cynics, but rather, as offering assurance to people like me who love him and the other Brethren and are inclined to trust his honesty and competence.

 

The data that they reported yesterday actually tells us that we're at a high level of deaths/removals (they don't give us the ability to separate out those categories).  And the data tells us that we are shrinking without convert baptisms.

 

If Elder Cook spoke the truth (and I'm inclined to believe that he did), the losses are not due to an inordinately high level of name removals. He directly contradicted that notion, in fact.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Great question for both sides here.  So far, we have not seen any.  Where are Elder Cook's numbers and statistics?  Will the church share them so we can all have them?  I hope so.

But as I've been at pains to point out here, the burden is not on Elder Cook or the Church to provide the numbers and statistics. The burden is on the accusers.

[Scott Lloyd]

How can people release data they have no access to?

That's their problem.

 

But unless and until they have those data, they should be more guarded and prudent about making accusations and assertions.

 

And observers should be careful about misplaced credence in their claims.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

But as I've been at pains to point out here, the burden is not on Elder Cook or the Church to provide the numbers and statistics. The burden is on the accusers.

No, he made the statement and people have asked for the stats or numbers that would support his statement.

So far, the church leaders have not shared those stats. But maybe now they will?

[The Nehor]

No, he made the statement and people have asked for the stats or numbers that would support his statement.

So far, the church leaders have not shared those stats. But maybe now they will?

And if the Church operated on that principle the gold plates would be available for study to all comers.

[Teancum]

Perhaps I am guilty of judging as well but the tone of many of your comments I have at least entertained the idea in my mind that you are a troubled soul.  Its not a fair judgment as we all are far more than the contents of what we post online.  We present just a small fragment of our true selves here.   However I have to admit that I do get an impression based on the comments you do make  of which I have read that you seen to be ticked off  about something.  I don't normally get that from other people.  I only mention this as Stargazer mentioned it.

I try to avoid labeling or judging what or who someone is based on interactions on a message board. Now I have done that? I just did with Bobbieware's post above and commented on what I have seen as a repeated pattern. Maybe you, stargazer and others see a pattern in me. I think I try to be even in my approach but perhaps I fail more than I think. It does seem to me though that any criticism can be perceived by many here as the person exhibiting anger, bitterness, a troubled soul, etc. maybe I am more strident than I think I am. I do challange the thought process and the methodology for truth determination that many here use. Maybe because I used to use it myself and I think it has betrayed me so I am suspect of it now.

Am I a troubled soul . I don't think so, I still mourn what is lost to me at times but I think the pain is worth it for truths sake. I still seek and am not finding perhaps what I hope to find. But in many ways I am happier and more peaceful than I was as a full belevier in the LDS faith. Perhaps my biggest frustration is I find it difficult given family, church and socials constraints that are still tied very much to the LDS church and culture to be fully authentic in what I share. Perhaps that comes out here some. And yes there still at times is some anger towards the institution for various reasons I think best left unsaid and especially since this thread is about something else and I am off topic.

[Scott Lloyd]

No, he made the statement and people have asked for the stats or numbers that would support his statement.

 

What he did was to deny and contradict false assertions and notions. Why don't those same people demand the stats and numbers from the people who made the assertions and notions in the first place?

 

If someone were to falsely accuse you of beating your children, would it be fair to insist that you prove you don't do that, as opposed to insisting that your accusers first prove their accusations? Would it be fair to assume you were guilty without such proof?

 

 

So far, the church leaders have not shared those stats. But maybe now they will?

 

Perhaps. Who knows?

 

But in the meantime, the contradiction stands, and it is now up to those who claim the Church is suffering a mass apostasy to prove or retract what they have asserted.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd