"the Church Has Never Been Stronger" -- Elder Cook

[Dgal]

All is well in Zion. No problems. That is very reassuring.

[Stargazer]

All is well in Zion. No problems. That is very reassuring.

If you were listening to conference today, then I don't think you would have posted this. If all were well in Zion, really, then all the talks would have been congratulating the Saints for a job well done. But this didn't happen. It was the usual pack of complaints about the Saints not living up to their obligations, and exhortations to do better.

Elder Cook simply took issue with all the doom-and-gloomers out there claiming that the Church was about to implode in on itself, saying that the Church is actually stronger than it has been in the past. That's not claiming that "all is well in zion."

[JLHPROF]

All is well in Zion. No problems. That is very reassuring.

 2 Nephi 28:21 - many won't even realize when the Church is out of order in ANY way.  The equating of the prosperity of the Church and its growth to its perfection is everywhere.

[rpn]

I also wondered how Elder Cook and Elder Jensen's comments could be reconciled.

 

But as to the inactivity in the church, the scriptures are pretty clear that half of the virgins are not going to be prepared because they haven't filled up their lamps.   I'm thinking that attending church and holding a TR and various other things are probably part of filling the lamps.

Edited April 5, 2015 by rpn

[Storm Rider]

I am convinced that the leaders of the church are liars; just look at the fruit of their labors.  Where the real truth lies is with those outside the church or, more precisely, with the Church's critics.  It is so blindingly obvious that our leaders are the scum of the earth and we should reject all they say.  Just look at their lives and how unhappy they are; all their lying, thieving, and evil actions just lead to pretty horrible lives. 

 

RPN, I don't think that attending church and having a TR is always a way to fill our lamps with oil.  It is more fundamental than that; I think it is about doing those things for the right reasons and sincerely seeking after the Savior and our Father in Heaven.  I have known people that got into the mode of having a check list to measure their righteousness; their objective was the list and somehow the Savior got left by the wayside.  They were the kind of people who would walk by or ignore the needy by the side of the road because they were so busy completing their list that they forgot to look around them and see the obvious needs for service in their daily life. 

 

As an aside, I really dislike those who rush to disprove or reject the words of prophets and apostles.  What Elder Cook stated has absolutely nothing to do with me as a member or as a disciple of Christ.  I am neither assured or discouraged by what he said about the strength of the Church.  I do assume that he has figures that I don't and should actually know what he is talking about.  I personally don't like to congratulate ourselves on church strength; I rather more enjoy those talks that may say well done, but point me to where we need to go.  I am a sinner and I sin almost all the time and yet I am a disciple of Christ.  I do think that Elder Cook qualified his statement properly by speaking of the worth of souls. 

 

This place gets weirder and weirder.  Happy Easter to all.

[JulieM]

Did you note the part where he talked about measurable indicators? People who have "quietly stopped going to church" don't show up as holding current temple recommends, paying tithing, qualifying to serve missions.Really, the sputtering, fuming and ill-informed second-guessing I see going on in this thread as a result of people having one of their pet assumptions debunked is quite a spectacle.

Debunked? I don't think so. If the leaders can share the statistics and numbers supporting what was said, that would be debunking.

I tend to believe more members are going inactive within the United States but there is still growth outside this country. Our ward hasn't had any new baptisms for over a year but many have stopped attending. I don't know how many of them have bothered to officially resign though.

[The Nehor]

It is amazing how those without access to the statistics are so confident that they know more then those who do have access. Point that out and they will just whine that they should have access. I wouldn't give it to them though. Letting whining direct what information to disclose probably falls under rewarding bad behavior.

[Darren10]

Teancum;

Could you please point me to the person or person who has / have said that "all is well"?

[Darren10]

Anecdotally, within the last year our ward in the Houston area split, then we got a brand new building and then moved to the brand new stake created. The Church is most definitely growing in this part of the world.

Church leaders receive *massive* amounts of data on the condition and state of the Church on a regular basis. A member of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles has a really good handle on how things are in the Church.

[Darren10]

Yes Scott. Sorry to burst your bubble. Leaders of many organizations exaggerate the facts. Do you really think Edler Cook is going to stand up and say the church is struggling?

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=president+snow+and+tithing&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=61950F3B6B7DB81EA24A61950F3B6B7DB81EA24A

[readstoomuch]

Too many returned missionaries, Too many endowed and married in the temple. Too many that should know. They value their intellectual prowess over feeling the spirit of God. I taught my older kids,but they both struggle. Intellectual, thinking people struggle with the Church and the manuals. According to Terryl Givens many of the manuals are horrible and outdated. My kids in seminary are getting more of the controversial stuff in seminary right now. They talk to me about them-great-fantastic!

The Essays were a good start, but the curriculums have to take on what these people run into I the internet. I trust Elder Cook's words, but have seen three men like I described, stopped coming to church.. I tried to speak to all three and one of the marriages is close to ending.. That one got caught up in MormonStories. Too many people like this do seem to be leaving and most with historical struggles. We have the quality information, but they don't get it in time and we as a Church must accept some of the blaim. That's how I see it.

[Scott Lloyd]

So it's like this.

For too long now, faithful Latter-day Saints have been at the mercy of individuals making assertions about the strength and viability of the Church of Jesus Christ without knowing what they were talking about.

Now, a leader in the highest councils of the Church, one truly with an insider's global perspective who could be expected to be privy to the most accurate and reliable of information, takes occasion in general conference not to debate or convince jaded cynics or chronic skeptics but to offer assurances to those of us who love and trust him and the other prophets and apostles, those of us who truly are of the fold of God.

Elder Cook spoke in good faith. To those who are sputtering and clucking, implying that he is a liar or incompetent in his assessment, I say prove it! Give us unimpeachable information, not suppositions and anecdotes. In short, put up or shut up.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

So it's like this.

For too long now, faithful Latter-day Saints have been at the mercy of individus making assertions about the strength and viability of the Church of Jesus Christ without knowing what they were talking about.

Now, a leader in the highest councils of the Church takes occasion in general conference, one truly with an insider's global perspective who could be expected to be privy to the most accurate and reliable of information, not to debate or convince jaded cynics or chronic skeptics but to offer assurances to those of us who love and trust him and the other prophets and apostles, those who truly are of the fold of God.

Elder Cook spoke in good faith. To those who are sputtering and clucking, implying that he is a liar or incompetent in his assessment, I say prove it! Give us unimpeachable information, not suppositions and anecdotes. In short, put up or shut up.

You are right. What is now happening in the church is american centered but not world centered. In the US, it is common to challenge the meta narrative and embrace identity politics. And this is one reason religion is said to be in decline in the US. But not in the world. The lds church is a world wide church and people are looking for direction. Here is an interesting article:

 

This is God’s world. The rest of us just live in it. So concludes a new analysis from the Pew Research Center on the world’s faiths, which finds, contra past predictions, that religion is on the rise around the globe.

By far, Muslims comprise the fastest growing religious population. By 2050, they are projected to total 2.76 billion, nearly equal to the 2.92 billion Christians who will then live on the planet.

Hindu and Jewish populations are also expected to grow while the proportion of people who pass through life as atheists, agnostics or otherwise religiously unaffiliated is projected to decline, except (oh, my Lord!) in the U.S.

For everyone else: Whether you observe Passover or Easter this weekend, just marked Holi or are looking ahead to Ramadan in June, peace be with you, namaste, shalom, salaam, amen.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/editorial-religious-world-article-1.2172760

 

Amazingly it is one of the most conservative religion groupings that is growing by leaps and bounds. The talk during the morning session about the family was fantastic. It shows that the lds church embraces god and has the world's mood in its teachings. Not bad really. It was wondeful when the speaker brought up the muslim connection in his talk. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by why me

[canard78]

Pardon, I should have checked with you first with your more reliable information and background before quoting an apostle speaking in general conference.

If the pictures so rosy why do they persist in burying the data.

As a researcher I prefer to see the evidence.

[Scott Lloyd]

As I had anticipated he might, Daniel Peterson, an occasional participant on this board, has weighed in on Elder Cook's statement yesterday with this blog post.

 

Other than an interesting anecdote about sometime feminist icon Gloria Steinem, I found this insight in his post most striking:

 

 

I sometimes think that the problem emerges from a self-selected environment.  That is to say that the most militant and vocal and even obsessive critics and apostates tend to inhabit a world of message boards in which everybody is more or less like them.  It’s a severely skewed sample, but it becomes their point of reference and, so, they come to imagine, because virtually everybody they interact with is leaving or has left Mormonism, that everybody everywhere is doing the same thing.

 

The late film critic Pauline Kael was much more self-aware, when she (in)famously said, in a speech delivered on 28 December 1972 at the Modern Language Association — i.e., not long after Mr. Nixon’s reelection to the presidency – “I live in a rather special world. I only know one person who voted for Nixon. Where they are I don’t know. They’re outside my ken. But sometimes when I’m in a theater I can feel them.”

 

She didn’t really mingle with the Great Unwashed, in other words, but she at least dimly sensed that they existed somewhere out there.

 

The apostates and critics who discern an imminent implosion of the Church seem to be living in “a rather special world” of their own.

 

 

And lest some here should start clucking (again) about an all-is-well-in-Zion mentality, I hasten to point out that Dan concludes his post with this, essentially echoing what Elder Cook said yesterday:

 

That said, though, every soul is precious and there’s no excuse for complacency

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

If the pictures so rosy why do they persist in burying the data.

As a researcher I prefer to see the evidence.

Maybe Elder Cook and/or the Church will furnish more facts and figures; maybe not.

 

Meanwhile, it is at least as rational for me to conclude that Elder Cook was speaking accurately and in good faith as it is for others to assert, imply or assume that he was lying or analyzing facts incompetently. And I see the burden of proof as being on those who assert a priori or with nothing more compelling than anecdotes that the Church of Jesus Christ is suffering a membership hemorrhage. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I also wondered how Elder Cook and Elder Jensen's comments could be reconciled.

 

But as to the inactivity in the church, the scriptures are pretty clear that half of the virgins are not going to be prepared because they haven't filled up their lamps.   I'm thinking that attending church and holding a TR and various other things are probably part of filling the lamps.

I consider Elder Jensen a friend but one with whom I have very infrequent personal contact. I would welcome the opportunity sometime to explore in greater detail where he was coming from with those comments.

 

But reportedly, about the time he made the comments, he had been having some interaction with John Dehlin regarding, among other things, Dehlin's dubious survey of disaffected Mormons.

 

If Elder Jensen to one degree or another got rattled or misled by Dehlin's jaded and slanted rhetoric, well, he certainly wouldn't have been unique in that respect.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Stargazer]

This place gets weirder and weirder.  Happy Easter to all.

I'll drink to that.

[Scott Lloyd]

The first two only indicate a successful local campaigns to increase those categories among existing members, not some monumental increase in membership. 

Excuse me, but I missed the part where Elder Cook said he was speaking only of "successful local campaigns." Can you point that out for me?

 

The 3rd category has only increased because of dropping the mission age.

 

Apparently you have missed threads on this board where it has been discussed that, although the surge occasioned by the age change has ended, the number of missionaries has not decreased as expected. In fact, according to rockpond's current thread, the surge is now over, yet the number of missionaries increased last year.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

And yet I see nothing like what you are reporting here where I live, in the Pacific Northwest. Things are not at all dire here. Your assuming that what is happening in your area is common churchwide is no more valid than my assuming that what I see is common churchwide? I'd have to call you a liar, if I were to believe that what I see MUST be the case everywhere. But I don't believe that what I see if the case everywhere.You seem to rejoice in the imminent demise of the LDS Church, and this appears to compel you to believe only negative reports. Do you not believe that it is possible that you are wrong? That you're generalizing over the whole of the church from the microcosm that you can observe?

No I don't want to see the demise of the church, What a silly proposition on anything I posted, I think I noted "in my area." I did not say that implies everywhere. I hear similar reports, some that are worse...I think I mentioned I have friend who is an MP in South America. He has wards with 1000 on the role and 30 attend. I hear many similar reports from South America. I have a connection with Brazil and activity rates according to those I know there de dismal .

I am curious. What is your Ward and activity rate? Stajke? How many convert baptisms does your mission have per year where you live? Mehta type of person is joining. Not that gosple wise that matters but strength wise it may. How many middle clas full families with young children ad converting in your area? Maybe others will share and many nasty extrapolation could be better vetted out?

[Teancum]

I don't know whether or not you watched any of today's sessions of general conference, but I did watch and judging by what I heard it's very obvious the leaders of the church care very much about the problems that are happening with members at the micro level. Time and time again the addresses were sincere attempts to reach out and give loving counsel to those who are struggling in the faith or in need of the healing that comes with forgiveness. If you did view any of the sessions, I'm wondering how you could have missed something so obvious? If you didn't see any of the sessions, I'm wondering what would motivate you to be so presumptuous as to insinuate the leaders don't genuinely care about those struggling in the faith? Perhaps it's true negative thinking clouds judgement and distorts perception?

Oh my heck you are all so sensative these days, I should have left my snarky comment off. Yes I agree the leaders care about the micro level problems of members.

I will edit that comment out.

[Teancum]

Well, if he had, then Teancum and you would both be claiming that he was fudging the numbers. Or would you? If he actually came up with the numbers, and they backed up his claims, would you accept them?I have my doubts about that, Thinking.

Ah such lovely personal attacks......

[Teancum]

I am convinced that the leaders of the church are liars; just look at the fruit of their labors.  Where the real truth lies is with those outside the church or, more precisely, with the Church's critics.  It is so blindingly obvious that our leaders are the scum of the earth and we should reject all they say.  Just look at their lives and how unhappy they are; all their lying, thieving, and evil actions just lead to pretty horrible lives. 

 

RPN, I don't think that attending church and having a TR is always a way to fill our lamps with oil.  It is more fundamental than that; I think it is about doing those things for the right reasons and sincerely seeking after the Savior and our Father in Heaven.  I have known people that got into the mode of having a check list to measure their righteousness; their objective was the list and somehow the Savior got left by the wayside.  They were the kind of people who would walk by or ignore the needy by the side of the road because they were so busy completing their list that they forgot to look around them and see the obvious needs for service in their daily life. 

 

As an aside, I really dislike those who rush to disprove or reject the words of prophets and apostles.  What Elder Cook stated has absolutely nothing to do with me as a member or as a disciple of Christ.  I am neither assured or discouraged by what he said about the strength of the Church.  I do assume that he has figures that I don't and should actually know what he is talking about.  I personally don't like to congratulate ourselves on church strength; I rather more enjoy those talks that may say well done, but point me to where we need to go.  I am a sinner and I sin almost all the time and yet I am a disciple of Christ.  I do think that Elder Cook qualified his statement properly by speaking of the worth of souls. 

 

This place gets weirder and weirder.  Happy Easter to all.

I heard Elder Cooks talk. I hardly noticed his comment about how strong the church is as he was saying a lot of other things. I think what was weird was the OP that took one remark to say all that the claim of all critics about church problems in loss of members has been debunked

[Scott Lloyd]

No I don't want to see the demise of the church, What a silly proposition on anything I posted, I think I noted "in my area." I did not say that implies everywhere. I hear similar reports, some that are worse...I think I mentioned I have friend who is an MP in South America. He has wards with 1000 on the role and 30 attend. I hear many similar reports from South America. I have a connection with Brazil and activity rates according to those I know there de dismal .

I am curious. What is your Ward and activity rate? Stajke? How many convert baptisms does your mission have per year where you live? Mehta type of person is joining. Not that gosple wise that matters but strength wise it may. How many middle clas full families with young children ad converting in your area? Maybe others will share and many nasty extrapolation could be better vetted out?

At this point, I think it important to note that the new-convert rate (which, according to rockpond's current thread analyzing yesterday's announced statistics, is holding steady) is a separate subject from the strength and viability of the Church, which is what Elder Cook was talking about yesterday.

 

Stiffer resistance to the acceptance of the missionary message would not surprise me, given the increasing state of wickedness in the world, the influence of Satan, etc. But that in itself would not be an indication that the Church as it exists is suffering a mass apostasy, which is what some alarmists and gleeful apostates have been claiming for a while now.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

Teancum;Could you please point me to the person or person who has / have said that "all is well"?

Let me help you....my comment was hyperbole....