"the Church Has Never Been Stronger" -- Elder Cook

[Teancum]

Will do. Want to join me? Just a few years of pushing through and eventually we can rule the Universe. Sound fun?

Might be fun!

[Thinking]

 

Elder Quentin L. Cook just debunked the anti-Mormon talking point that there is an unprecedented mass exodus from the Church going on today.

 

I'll get an exact quote later, but the gist is that the volume of members requesting name removal has always been extremely small and is smaller today that at previous times in Church history.

 

YES!

 

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

Yet he offered no actual data to back up his claim.

[The Nehor]

Yet he offered no actual data to back up his claim.

 

Yeah, very surprising he was not given 30 minutes to break out all the statistics and explain them in detail via Powerpoint. Obviously he is lying.

[carbon dioxide]

Hmmmm I just heard this.  Saying it does not make it so.

 

Denial does not help but hey that is ok.. Carry on.  If you think 30%-35% activity rate is fine, if you think losing many STRONG AND WELL OFF tithe payers is fine ok. 

 

I see my own Eastern USA ward and stake. Low converts, poor retention, most converts are not families and are lower in the economic status, maybe 40% attendance, no new wards or stakes in 25 years....

 

if you think all is well in Zion I have a scripture for you.

I don't view activity rate as a metric to determine how strong the Church is.  I have been "inactive" much of my life for various reasons but mostly my work.  I have known many "inactive" people who have a strong testimony.  He did not provide numbers and until numbers are given, people will be skeptical.  Even if numbers are given, people will question.  I don't know if the church is stronger or weaker and I don't think you know either. 

[hoo rider]

 

Elder Quentin L. Cook just debunked the anti-Mormon talking point that there is an unprecedented mass exodus from the Church going on today.

 

I'll get an exact quote later, but the gist is that the volume of members requesting name removal has always been extremely small and is smaller today that at previous times in Church history.

 

YES!

 

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

Edited to add:

 

 

 

 

I wish Elder Cook had provided a bit more information (such as numbers) rather than just giving unsupported assertions. I will grant his statement of broad assertions without details seemed very lawyer-esque (I'm a lawyer too), but I don't think that's a good thing in this context.  In most (maybe all?) areas of life, I've found details to be useful.  Wish we had more here.

[carbon dioxide]

Yet he offered no actual data to back up his claim.

He did not offer data. Perhaps rather than waste precious time going through numbers in conference, numbers will be given in an article in the Ensign.  Anyway there are some numbers.  One can look at total membership, convert and child baptism numbers and look at the change since last year.  I have not run the numbers.  Yes people leave the church but are they leaving in mass numbers?  Is the percentage any different than it was 20 years ago? 

[hoo rider]

Yeah, very surprising he was not given 30 minutes to break out all the statistics and explain them in detail via Powerpoint. Obviously he is lying.

I wouldn't expect that in conference, but a few numbers with more available in footnotes would be nice.  Hopefully we'll all be pleasantly surprised with detailed footnotes when his talk is published in written format.  

[Thinking]

Yeah, very surprising he was not given 30 minutes to break out all the statistics and explain them in detail via Powerpoint. Obviously he is lying.

 

So will the 30 minute powerpoint be available on lds.org soon?

[The Nehor]

So will the 30 minute powerpoint be available on lds.org soon?

 

Yes but only if you pay an extra 5% in your tithing.

[slamarwi]

Hmmmm I just heard this.  Saying it does not make it so.

 

Denial does not help but hey that is ok.. Carry on.  If you think 30%-35% activity rate is fine, if you think losing many STRONG AND WELL OFF tithe payers is fine ok. 

 

I see my own Eastern USA ward and stake. Low converts, poor retention, most converts are not families and are lower in the economic status, maybe 40% attendance, no new wards or stakes in 25 years....

 

if you think all is well in Zion I have a scripture for you.

Could be an attitude problem in your stake

[rockpond]

I agree.

 

I wish what he said was true, but I tend to believe that quite the opposite is what is really true.  I know that our activity rate is shrinking in my area and we just had to consolidate 3 wards down to 2.  Also, a nearby town just went back to having only 1 stake when they previously had 2 very large ones.

 

But, it would be interesting to see some statistics to back up what he stated.  I do believe that he must believe what he reported.

 

Yes, it would be interesting to see the statistics behind his statement as well as those that prompted Elder Jensen's statement several years back.

 

Of the metrics that the Church does choose to report, the majority are headed in the wrong direction.  See here.

[Peppermint Patty]

I wish Elder Cook had provided a bit more information (such as numbers) rather than just giving unsupported assertions. I will grant his statement of broad assertions without details seemed very lawyer-esque (I'm a lawyer too), but I don't think that's a good thing in this context.  In most (maybe all?) areas of life, I've found details to be useful.  Wish we had more here.

 

If the statistics that were given today in General Conference can be trusted, the Church grew at the slowest rate since 1974.  This, despite the huge increase in missionaries.

 

As Cinepro just said, I think Elder Cook has a much different definition of "stronger" than I do.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Peppermint Patty

[rockpond]

If the statistics that were given today in General Conference can be trusted, the Church grew at the slowest rate since 1974.  This, despite the huge increase in missionaries.

 

As Cinepro just said, I think Elder Cook has a much different definition of "stronger" than I do.

 

Actually, the growth rate for 2014 was just a bit slower than 1974.  1974 also stands out as a bit of an anomaly surrounded by years of much stronger growth.  2014 on the other hand just continues the downward trend.

[JLHPROF]

From the quote:

The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic.  Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger.

 

 

That's as it should be - the core of the Church (recommend carrying faithful members) should become stronger and more defined while the overall general membership drifts away a bit.  Prophecy.

 

I wonder when the biggest group leaving the Church was.  I believe one of the largest was in 1850's England when plural marriage reached their ears.

[carbon dioxide]

If the statistics that were given today in General Conference can be trusted, the Church grew at the slowest rate since 1974.  This, despite the huge increase in missionaries.

 

My prediction is this will continue.  If the world truly is more wicked today than in the days of Noah and Noah had a hard time getting the people to convert, we should also expect the same or worse.  The Lord said in the 1830s that the field was white and ready to be harvested.  I think the field has turned brown and dried out.  Now it is ready to be burned.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I am sure was telling the truth- that less members are "removing their names from the records of the church". But that doesn't equal less people leaving- most just stop going to church quietly. So he was honest, just not completely truthful.

[Scott Lloyd]

I am sure was telling the truth- that less members are "removing their names from the records of the church". But that doesn't equal less people leaving- most just stop going to church quietly. So he was honest, just not completely truthful.

Did you note the part where he talked about measurable indicators? People who have "quietly stopped going to church" don't show up as holding current temple recommends, paying tithing, qualifying to serve missions.

Really, the sputtering, fuming and ill-informed second-guessing I see going on in this thread as a result of people having one of their pet assumptions debunked is quite a spectacle.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

"The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic."

 

The first two only indicate a successful local campaigns to increase those categories among existing members, not some monumental increase in membership. The 3rd category has only increased because of dropping the mission age.

Edited April 5, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Teancum]

Could be an attitude problem in your stake

Sure. We have a bunch of slackers no doubt.

[Teancum]

Did you note the part where he talked about measurable indicators? People who have "quietly stopped going to church" don't show up as holding current temple recommends, paying tithing, qualifying to serve missions.Really, the sputtering, fuming and ill-informed second-guessing I see going on in this thread as a result of people having one of their pet assumptions debunked is quite a spectacle.

A couple sentences is hardly a debunk. Rather we see people grasping and claiming some sort of victory over a debate that has never taken place over a couple unsubstantiated sentences.

But guess what? I agree with him. The church is bigger, has more geographic penetration, more recommend holders and missionaries than it ever has. It is likely wealthier to. I am not one who has predicted the decline or demise of the LDS church. It still grows a few percent or so a year world wide. It loses maybe 80,000-100,000 per year officially. Likely more unofficially. But there is net growth. It is slow growth. At the rate it is growing it will likely be a small influence on the large world stage though in many venues it's has more influence by its members then it's size seems to warrant.

That is all good. On. Macro basis the church grows. On a micro basis there are problems....edit out of snarky comment....

Edited April 5, 2015 by Teancum

[Stargazer]

With all due respect to Elder Cook, I don't believe for a second that more people were leaving the Church (either total number or as a percentage) before the creation and widespread adoption of the internet.  I've asked two currently serving Stake Presidents if this would be reflected in their experience, and both said no.  

 

Unless the Church is willing to actually share some numbers, I'm going to have to assume that Elder Cook's definition of "stronger" is different than mine.

I would have thought that a cinema professional would recognize the difference between worldwide statistics and the experience of two stake presidents. People who do a lot of drugs, for example, hang out with a lot of people who do drugs, and tend to think that the number of recreational drug users is much higher than it actually is.

It can be raining cats and dogs here in Olympia, Washington while Seattle is experiencing totally blue skies (with clouds on the horizon in the direction of Olympia, of course, there's a 70 mile distance between them after all.

[Stargazer]

All is well Mr. Lloyd. Keep telling yourself this. I am fine with that. All I can go on is what I see where I live, what others share with me from where they live and reach conclusions. If you and Elder Cook are satisfied and view the growth rate, the activity rate, the disaffection rate fine with me. If you are naive enough to think that in such a setting as GC a top leader is not invested in promoting uplifting commentary well I can't help you. I am not all that worried about it. I wish the church well. I just don't pretend all is well. 15 million plus members? Why can't the church tell us it is likley more like 5-6 million that are committed?

And yet I see nothing like what you are reporting here where I live, in the Pacific Northwest. Things are not at all dire here. Your assuming that what is happening in your area is common churchwide is no more valid than my assuming that what I see is common churchwide? I'd have to call you a liar, if I were to believe that what I see MUST be the case everywhere. But I don't believe that what I see if the case everywhere.

You seem to rejoice in the imminent demise of the LDS Church, and this appears to compel you to believe only negative reports. Do you not believe that it is possible that you are wrong? That you're generalizing over the whole of the church from the microcosm that you can observe?

[Sevenbak]

My prediction is this will continue. If the world truly is more wicked today than in the days of Noah and Noah had a hard time getting the people to convert, we should also expect the same or worse. The Lord said in the 1830s that the field was white and ready to be harvested. I think the field has turned brown and dried out. Now it is ready to be burned.

We're not there yet... if that was the case we wouldn't be sending out the many missionaries as we are.

We know from scriptures that before the Lord does his own "preaching" the missionaries will be called home.

[Bobbieaware]

A couple sentences is hardly a debunk. Rather we see people grasping and claiming some sort of victory over a debate that has never taken place over a couple unsubstantiated sentences.

But guess what? I agree with him. The church is bigger, has more geographic penetration, more recommend holders and missionaries than it ever has. It is likely wealthier to. I am not one who has predicted the decline or demise of the LDS church. It still grows a few percent or so a year world wide. It loses maybe 80,000-100,000 per year officially. Likely more unofficially. But there is net growth. It is slow growth. At the rate it is growing it will likely be a small influence on the large world stage though in many venues it's has more influence by its members then it's size seems to warrant.

That is all good. On. Macro basis the church grows. On a micro basis there are problems. But who cares about them.

I don't know whether or not you watched any of today's sessions of general conference, but I did watch and judging by what I heard it's very obvious the leaders of the church care very much about the problems that are happening with members at the micro level. Time and time again the addresses were sincere attempts to reach out and give loving counsel to those who are struggling in the faith or in need of the healing that comes with forgiveness. If you did view any of the sessions, I'm wondering how you could have missed something so obvious? If you didn't see any of the sessions, I'm wondering what would motivate you to be so presumptuous as to insinuate the leaders don't genuinely care about those struggling in the faith? Perhaps it's true negative thinking clouds judgement and distorts perception?

Edited April 5, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Stargazer]

Yet he offered no actual data to back up his claim.

Well, if he had, then Teancum and you would both be claiming that he was fudging the numbers. Or would you? If he actually came up with the numbers, and they backed up his claims, would you accept them?

I have my doubts about that, Thinking.