"the Church Has Never Been Stronger" -- Elder Cook

[Scott Lloyd]

I heard Elder Cooks talk. I hardly noticed his comment about how strong the church is as he was saying a lot of other things. I think what was weird was the OP that took one remark to say all that the claim of all critics about church problems in loss of members has been debunked

If you've got something solid that says otherwise, show us.

[Scott Lloyd]

Let me help you....my comment was hyperbole....

Even hyperbole must stem from fact. Otherwise it is rank falsehood.

[Teancum]

As I had anticipated he might, Daniel Peterson, an occasional participant on this board, has weighed in on Elder Cook's statement yesterday with this blog post.

 

Other than an interesting anecdote about sometime feminist icon Gloria Steinem, I found this insight in his post most striking:

 

 

And lest some here should start clucking (again) about an all-is-well-in-Zion mentality, I hasten to point out that Dan concludes his post with this, essentially echoing what Elder Cook said yesterday:

I think his point that our views are tainted by those we hang with is valid. On both sides. Personally my comments about church strength are not about people resigning. Rather it is just the apathy and inactivity i see as well as low to no growth in the general geographic area I live in and the problems with retaing converts and youth. I don't see hardly any leaving over history or doctrine or LBGT issues, etc. at least vocally.

[Peppermint Patty]

If the statistics that were given today in General Conference can be trusted, the Church grew at the slowest rate since 1974.  This, despite the huge increase in missionaries.

 

As Cinepro just said, I think Elder Cook has a much different definition of "stronger" than I do.

 

I guess I spoke too soon. It looks like the Church actually grew at the slowest rate since 1946:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history#Table_for_LDS_Church_membership_numbers

 

Even though we have more missionaries than at any other time, more media coverage through the internet, radio, television, and more PR we were still unable to grow much past the birth rate this year.  I hope this is an anomaly year.

 

ETA: look at the growth rate we had in 1830!  Wow!

Edited April 5, 2015 by Peppermint Patty

[jwhitlock]

Intellectual, thinking people struggle with the Church and the manuals.

 

I disagree with this. There are many intellectual, thinking people who have strong testimonies of the church. They have been able to put things into perspective. They understand that the foundation of testimony is not "my will be done" but "God's will be done", and they know that God's will is manifest in the church.

 

One does not have to leave intellectualism behind to be a faithful church member. Faithful, spiritual church membership opens doors of intellectual understanding that remain otherwise closed.

[Scott Lloyd]

I guess I spoke too soon. It looks like the Church actually grew at the slowest rate since 1946:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history#Table_for_LDS_Church_membership_numbers

 

Even though we have more missionaries than at any other time, more media coverage through the internet, radio, television, and more PR we were still unable to grow much past the birth rate this year.  I hope this is an anomaly year.

Please see my post #74. 

 

A slower rate of new conversions is not in itself an indication that the Church is weaker. That may be due to an increase in the general state of wickedness in the world, the error and false assumptions that must be overcome in order to get people to consider the gospel message, etc.

 

What Elder Cook was addressing -- and contradicting -- was claims that the Church internally is suffering a massive hemorrhage in its membership.

 

As Cinepro just said, I think Elder Cook has a much different definition of "stronger" than I do.

 

If that's the case, I'm inclined to go with Elder Cook's definition as the one that rings truer.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[jwhitlock]

I guess I spoke too soon. It looks like the Church actually grew at the slowest rate since 1946:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history#Table_for_LDS_Church_membership_numbers

 

Even though we have more missionaries than at any other time, more media coverage through the internet, radio, television, and more PR we were still unable to grow much past the birth rate this year.  I hope this is an anomaly year.

 

This is one of the problems with statistical measurements. The larger an organization gets, the harder it is to continue growing at the same percentage rate. That not only includes things from a membership perspective, but also from an economic perspective.  With the size of the church currently, percentage growth measurements don't really mean anything.

 

Strength is better measured in absolute numbers, which is what Elder Cook was talking about. Absolute numbers indicate you have reached self-sustaining critical masses in some areas and are no longer dependent on the outside in order to continue that strength.

 

1 Nephi 14 is instructive on this point. When the church is strong, it is not a matter of overwhelming numbers, but rather that there are enough people of a certain caliber to enable the power of God to be manifest in their lives as a group. That's starting to happen in some areas, while other areas of the church still struggle because the outside influences of the world are too strong.

 

Our dominions are going to continue to be small until the Second Coming, but they are at the point where we're just about everywhere. We are stronger than we ever were as a church. I continue to marvel at what the church accomplishes with the people it has. Its influence is way out of proportion to its numbers. That indicates great strength.

 

We know that people are always going to be leaving. That's the nature of the war that continues with Satan. They have their agency. But that is not an indication that the church is faltering.

[Scott Lloyd]

This is one of the problems with statistical measurements. The larger an organization gets, the harder it is to continue growing at the same percentage rate. That not only includes things from a membership perspective, but also from an economic perspective.  With the size of the church currently, percentage growth measurements don't really mean anything.

 

Strength is better measured in absolute numbers, which is what Elder Cook was talking about. Absolute numbers indicate you have reached self-sustaining critical masses in some areas and are no longer dependent on the outside in order to continue that strength.

 

1 Nephi 14 is instructive on this point. When the church is strong, it is not a matter of overwhelming numbers, but rather that there are enough people of a certain caliber to enable the power of God to be manifest in their lives as a group. That's starting to happen in some areas, while other areas of the church still struggle because the outside influences of the world are too strong.

 

Our dominions are going to continue to be small until the Second Coming, but they are at the point where we're just about everywhere. We are stronger than we ever were as a church. I continue to marvel at what the church accomplishes with the people it has. Its influence is way out of proportion to its numbers. That indicates great strength.

 

Just as Nephi beheld in vision. 

 

Imagine that: a fulfillment of prophecy. 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

We're not there yet... if that was the case we wouldn't be sending out the many missionaries as we are.

We know from scriptures that before the Lord does his own "preaching" the missionaries will be called home.

 

CFR

[jwhitlock]

Just as Nephi beheld in vision. 

 

Imagine that: a fulfillment of prophecy. 

 

Here's an example.

 

We know that the Northeast is a bastion of Mormonism, correct? (being facetious there for those can't tell)

 

During hurricane Sandy, the Mormon Helping Hands went into action to assist people in New York and New Jersey (interesting story about the problems getting in due to government incompetence, but that's for another time). You'd think that with that many people that needed help, the Mormons would only be a drop in the bucket. But it wasn't that way. It seemed that everywhere you went, there were yellow shirts around. Busloads of them. They got to a point where there wasn't any work left to do in some areas. It was absolutely amazing.

 

It's not that the Mormons were the only ones out helping, but their numbers seemed way out of proportion. Where did they all come from? I'm still trying to figure that out.

[Senator]

 

Elder Quentin L. Cook just debunked the anti-Mormon talking point that there is an unprecedented mass exodus from the Church going on today.

 

I'll get an exact quote later, but the gist is that the volume of members requesting name removal has always been extremely small and is smaller today that at previous times in Church history.

 

YES!

 

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

Edited to add:

 

 

 

 

While I certainly do not accuse Elder Cook of being dishonest, I do realize that the adverbs and adjectives he used "significantly, dramatic, greatly" are subjective in nature. One man's dramatic may be another's ho-hum.

 

It would be interesting to see the data.

 

For instance "in recent years", the mere presence of 30,000 new missionaries would account for a spike in "endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions".

Edited April 5, 2015 by Senator

[ALarson]

While I certainly do not accuse Elder Cook of being dishonest, I do realize that the adverbs and adjectives he used "significantly, dramatic, greatly" are subjective in nature. One man's dramatic may be another's ho-hum.

 

It would be interesting to see the data.

 

For instance "in recent years", the mere presence of 30,000 new missionaries would account for a spike in "endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions".

All very true.

 

I do hope that Elder Cook (or other church leaders) release more data to support the statements he made.  The stats that were given in conference did not show a dramatic change or increase (many are saying that they showed that growth has slowed down).  

[Senator]

All very true.

 

I do hope that Elder Cook (or other church leaders) release more data to support the statements he made.  The stats that were given in conference did not show a dramatic change or increase (many are saying that they showed that growth has slowed down).  

It would be interesting to see the demographics as to where these increases took place.

[Bobbieaware]

CFR

President Brigham Young:

"Do you think there is calamity abroad now among the people? Not much. All we have yet heard and all we have experienced is scarcely a preface to the sermon that is going to be preached. When the testimony of the Elders ceases to be given, and the Lord says to them, "Come home; I will now preach my own sermons to the nations of the earth," all you now know can scarcely be called a preface to the sermon that will be preached with fire and sword, tempests, earthquakes, hail, rain, thunders and lightnings, and fearful destruction. What matters the destruction of a few railway cars? You will hear of magnificent cities, now idolized by the people, sinking in the earth, entombing the inhabitants. The sea will heave itself beyond its bounds, engulfing mighty cities. Famine will spread over the nations, and nation will rise up against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and states against states, in our own country and in foreign lands. (July 15, 1860)"

and...

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them. 3 Nephi 16

Edited April 5, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Thinking]

Did you note the part where he talked about measurable indicators? People who have "quietly stopped going to church" don't show up as holding current temple recommends, paying tithing, qualifying to serve missions.

Really, the sputtering, fuming and ill-informed second-guessing I see going on in this thread as a result of people having one of their pet assumptions debunked is quite a spectacle.

 

Elder Cook didn't debunk anything because he didn't show any real data.

 

debunk: to show that something (such as a belief or theory) is not true : to show the falseness of (a story, idea, statement, etc.)

[Zeezrom84]

this is one area (of several) where the church really needs to rework the narrative. When I was growing up there was all this emphasis on the incredible (even miraculous) growth of the church. No one bothered to explain that the growth of the church historically is not really anything special when compared with other religious movements. So missionaries go out to the field and find that in many areas other religious groups have been much more successful (i.e. Evangelicals in some areas, Jehovah witnesses in others, etc...) and it undermines testimony. the church both the institution and culture have both contributed to this problem (in large part I believe to squeeze out more short term results in missionary efforts). church growth is only going to get worse in the future. Yes the global south is contributing to raw numbers, but unfortunately for church growth ( and fortunately for the world), the global south is growing economically and in Internet connectivity which both tend to correlate with lower growth. Furthermore, the church seems to be losing strength from the inner core of US membership which drives a lot of the expansion worldwide. Mass exodus? No, stagnation? Probably.

[Thinking]

Well, if he had, then Teancum and you would both be claiming that he was fudging the numbers. Or would you? If he actually came up with the numbers, and they backed up his claims, would you accept them?

I have my doubts about that, Thinking.

 

He didn't, yet somehow I and Teancum are the bad guys and are being prejudged to act in a certain way if the desired data had come out.

[carbon dioxide]

Success of the LDS church is not beating the Catholics in membership.  It never will get close.  They have a 1000 plus year head start on us anyway.  Success is find those few investigators in the world who are ready to hear it and the membership becoming more unified.  Our numbers will always be very small compared to the total population and that is good.  If the Church was to become a dominate church,  it would have to adopt too many things of this world to appeal to the masses.  The full truth is not accepted by the majority of the population but only few have it.

[carbon dioxide]

Elder Cook didn't debunk anything because he didn't show any real data.

 

debunk: to show that something (such as a belief or theory) is not true : to show the falseness of (a story, idea, statement, etc.)

Of course the claim that the Church is falling apart, people are leaving in masses ect is also not show by any real data.  People just throw the claim out without any support.  So yes he did not provide data but those he is responding to have not shown any real hard data either.  There is nothing to suggest that the LDS Church activity rate, retention rate, rate of members leaving the Church has changed much in the past few decades.  Why demand data from Elder Cook when the people who make these claims do not provide data and nobody demands it from them?

Edited April 5, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Senator]

There is nothing to suggest that the LDS Church activity rate, retention rate, rate of members leaving the Church has changed much in the past few decades.

According to Elder Cook, there is.

 

 

Why demand data from Elder Cook when the people who make these claims do not provide data and nobody demands it from them?

How could anyone outside of the church provide any data independant from the church?

[Kenngo1969]

I agree with Scott, and I also agree with those who have pointed out that growth or strength of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not uniform everywhere.  But as the apostle Paul wrote, "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" (Galatians 5:9).

[ALarson]

He didn't, yet somehow I and Teancum are the bad guys and are being prejudged to act in a certain way if the desired data had come out.

There really is a huge double standard regarding this on here.

 

If someone posted that the church is drastically shrinking and that the numbers of the resignations are sky rocketing, the very posters who are accepting Elder Cook's statements without stats to back them up would be demanding proof or statistics supporting these claims.

[carbon dioxide]

How could anyone outside of the church provide any data independant from the church?

They can't yet they can claim things and nobody demands data from them.  Its a two way street.  If one demands evidence from one side, they need to demand evidence from the other.   I see no reason for the church to get into a detailed response to a baseless allegation.

[carbon dioxide]

There really is a huge double standard regarding this on here.

 

If someone posted that the church is drastically shrinking and that the numbers of the resignations are sky rocketing, the very posters who are accepting Elder Cook's statements without stats to back them up would be demanding proof or statistics supporting these claims.

If an allegation is made against the LDS Church, all that is important is the allegation.  No evidence is demanded to support it.  Then the people who accept those allegations without evidence demand the Church respond to it with evidence and if the Church does not give evidence, that proves the allegation to be true.  Complete nonsense.  I could make dozens of statements against the Church that are not true.  Do they suddenly become true if the Church does not respond to them with evidence? 

Edited April 5, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[ALarson]

Was Elder Cook speaking as a man and just giving his opinion?

 

It very well could be the case that these were just his thoughts and he has every right in his leadership position to express them.  But, people also have a right to question his opinion or ask for some stats to back up his statements.  It wouldn't be the first time that someone misspoke in conference (I'm thinking of the April 6th comment by Elder Bednar last conference for example).  Either way, this is an interesting discussion.

Edited April 5, 2015 by ALarson