"the Church Has Never Been Stronger" -- Elder Cook

[Scott Lloyd]

Elder Quentin L. Cook just debunked the anti-Mormon talking point that there is an unprecedented mass exodus from the Church going on today.

 

I'll get an exact quote later, but the gist is that the volume of members requesting name removal has always been extremely small and is smaller today that at previous times in Church history.

 

YES!

 

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

Edited to add:

 

Here's that direct quote, complete with footnotes in the written text:

 

            Some have asserted that more members are leaving the Church today, and that there is more doubt and unbelief than in the past.  This is simply not true.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger.  The number of members removing their names from the records of the Church has always been very small and is significantly less in recent years than in the past.  The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic.  Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger.  But, “Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God…”[ii]   We reach out to everyone.

Over the last 25 years the actual number of members leaving the Church has decreased and the Church has almost doubled in size.  The percentage leaving is greatly reduced.

[ii] D&C 18:10.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

It is just that those leaving now tend to be louder. As they have metaphorically nasal and shrill voices the increase in volume is not appreciated.

[strappinglad]

The toughest teams come from fighting the toughest foes. " Choose you this day... " because the choices are becoming clearer .

[rockpond]

 

Elder Quentin L. Cook just debunked the anti-Mormon talking point that there is an unprecedented mass exodus from the Church going on today.

 

I'll get an exact quote later, but the gist is that the volume of members requesting name removal has always been extremely small and is smaller today that at previous times in Church history.

 

YES!

 

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

Edited to add:

 

 

 

 

I wonder what data Elder Jensen was looking at when he made the comment (most who I have seen make the assertion quote his statement of the Brethren being aware of an apostasy like we haven't seen since Kirtland).

[Teancum]

Hmmmm I just heard this.  Saying it does not make it so.

 

Denial does not help but hey that is ok.. Carry on.  If you think 30%-35% activity rate is fine, if you think losing many STRONG AND WELL OFF tithe payers is fine ok. 

 

I see my own Eastern USA ward and stake. Low converts, poor retention, most converts are not families and are lower in the economic status, maybe 40% attendance, no new wards or stakes in 25 years....

 

if you think all is well in Zion I have a scripture for you.

[Teancum]

I wonder what data Elder Jensen was looking at when he made the comment (most who I have seen make the assertion quote his statement of the Brethren being aware of an apostasy like we haven't seen since Kirtland).

 

 

The coach has to tell the team everything is great even if it isn't. And it isn't.

[Scott Lloyd]

I wonder what data Elder Jensen was looking at when he made the comment (most who I have seen make the assertion quote his statement of the Brethren being aware of an apostasy like we haven't seen since Kirtland).

I think Elder Jensen may have been talking anecdotally.

 

Elder Cook (who has a legal background and is accustomed to being precise) apparently was speaking from figures and statistics and reliable information.

 

And notwithstanding Teancum's unseemly insinuations of dishonesty on Elder Cook's part, you can't find a source much more highly placed and reliable than an apostle speaking in general conference, especially one with Elder Cook's legal background.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

I think Elder Jensen may have been talking anecdotally.

 

Elder Cook (who has a legal background and is accustomed to being precise) apparently was speaking from figures and statistics.

 

Well, for 2014 without convert baptisms, we got smaller.  But I do think that strength is not measured solely by membership counts (as he indicates in his quote).

[ALarson]

The coach has to tell the team everything is great even if it isn't. And it isn't.

I agree.

 

I wish what he said was true, but I tend to believe that quite the opposite is what is really true.  I know that our activity rate is shrinking in my area and we just had to consolidate 3 wards down to 2.  Also, a nearby town just went back to having only 1 stake when they previously had 2 very large ones.

 

But, it would be interesting to see some statistics to back up what he stated.  I do believe that he must believe what he reported.

Edited April 4, 2015 by ALarson

[Bobbieaware]

Hmmmm I just heard this. Saying it does not make it so.

Denial does not help but hey that is ok.. Carry on. If you think 30%-35% activity rate is fine, if you think losing many STRONG AND WELL OFF tithe payers is fine ok.

I see my own Eastern USA ward and stake. Low converts, poor retention, most converts are not families and are lower in the economic status, maybe 40% attendance, no new wards or stakes in 25 years....

if you think all is well in Zion I have a scripture for you.

So I presume you believe elder Cook was not telling the truth when he said there are less members leaving the church today than has been seen in recent previous years?

Edited April 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree.

 

I wish what he said was true, but I tend to believe that quite the opposite is what is really true.  I know that our activity rate is shrinking in my area and we just had to consolidate 3 wards down to 2.  Also, a nearby town just went back to having only 1 stake when they previously had 2 very large ones.

 

But, it would be interesting to see some statistics to back up what he stated.  I do believe that he must believe what he reported.

Pardon, I should have checked with you first with your more reliable information and background before quoting an apostle speaking in general conference.

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, for 2014 without convert baptisms, we got smaller.  But I do think that strength is not measured solely by membership counts (as he indicates in his quote).

From the quote:

 

The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic.  Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger.

 

[rockpond]

From the quote:

 

Right... as I indicated... he began the quote talking about membership counts but ended looking at other measures.  I think it's entirely wrong-headed to judge the strength of the church solely on membership counts.  (Which is also why, in my ongoing analysis, I look at a wide variety of figures.  And... wish that more were available to us.)

[sheilauk]

Activity in the USA is not necessarily indicative of the whole world wide Church.

[cinepro]

Over the last 25 years the actual number of members leaving the Church has decreased and the Church has almost doubled in size.  The percentage leaving is greatly reduced.

 

With all due respect to Elder Cook, I don't believe for a second that more people were leaving the Church (either total number or as a percentage) before the creation and widespread adoption of the internet.  I've asked two currently serving Stake Presidents if this would be reflected in their experience, and both said no.  

 

Unless the Church is willing to actually share some numbers, I'm going to have to assume that Elder Cook's definition of "stronger" is different than mine.

Edited April 4, 2015 by cinepro

[Scott Lloyd]

With all due respect to Elder Cook, I don't believe for a second that more people were leaving the Church (either total number or as a percentage) before the creation and widespread adoption of the internet.  I've asked two currently serving Stake Presidents if this would be reflected in their experience, and both said no.  

 

Unless the Church is willing to actually share some numbers, I'm going to have to assume that Elder Cook's definition of "stronger" is different than mine.

I think Elder Cook was pretty clear.

 

Did you read the quote I provided, including the text-only footnotes?

 

Edited to add:

 

Apparently you did. Yet you still claim to have a better handle on it than he does. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[jwhitlock]

Our area in the east is growing. I think what's happening is that certain areas may be shrinking (due to wickedness, of course  ) while other areas are increasing and doing well. But overall, the church is increasing and strengthening.

[The Nehor]

Hmmmm I just heard this.  Saying it does not make it so.

 

Denial does not help but hey that is ok.. Carry on.  If you think 30%-35% activity rate is fine, if you think losing many STRONG AND WELL OFF tithe payers is fine ok. 

 

I see my own Eastern USA ward and stake. Low converts, poor retention, most converts are not families and are lower in the economic status, maybe 40% attendance, no new wards or stakes in 25 years....

 

if you think all is well in Zion I have a scripture for you.

 

To quote part of your post:

 

Saying it does not make it so.

[Teancum]

I think Elder Jensen may have been talking anecdotally.

 

Elder Cook (who has a legal background and is accustomed to being precise) apparently was speaking from figures and statistics and reliable information.

 

And notwithstanding Teancum's unseemly insinuations of dishonesty on Elder Cook's part, you can't find a source much more highly placed and reliable than an apostle speaking in general conference, especially one with Elder Cook's legal background.

All is well Mr. Lloyd. Keep telling yourself this. I am fine with that. All I can go on is what I see where I live, what others share with me from where they live and reach conclusions. If you and Elder Cook are satisfied and view the growth rate, the activity rate, the disaffection rate fine with me. If you are naive enough to think that in such a setting as GC a top leader is not invested in promoting uplifting commentary well I can't help you. I am not all that worried about it. I wish the church well. I just don't pretend all is well. 15 million plus members? Why can't the church tell us it is likley more like 5-6 million that are committed?

[Teancum]

I agree.

 

I wish what he said was true, but I tend to believe that quite the opposite is what is really true.  I know that our activity rate is shrinking in my area and we just had to consolidate 3 wards down to 2.  Also, a nearby town just went back to having only 1 stake when they previously had 2 very large ones.

 

But, it would be interesting to see some statistics to back up what he stated.  I do believe that he must believe what he reported.

Yet my comments are unseemly. Maybe Mr. Lloyd such get outside of Utah and his cloistered job a bit.

[Teancum]

With all due respect to Elder Cook, I don't believe for a second that more people were leaving the Church (either total number or as a percentage) before the creation and widespread adoption of the internet.  I've asked two currently serving Stake Presidents if this would be reflected in their experience, and both said no.  

 

Unless the Church is willing to actually share some numbers, I'm going to have to assume that Elder Cook's definition of "stronger" is different than mine.

Oh but it is unseemly to challange what an apostle says at GC.

[Teancum]

I think Elder Cook was pretty clear.

 

Did you read the quote I provided, including the text-only footnotes?

 

Edited to add:

 

Ye

Apparently you did. Yet you still claim to have a better handle on it than he does. 

Yes Scott. Sorry to burst your bubble. Leaders of many organizations exaggerate the facts. Do you really think Edler Cook is going to stand up and say the church is struggling?

[Paddy]

The way I read the Jensen quote was that people who are leaving the church are leaving largely over historical issues. I thought he was speaking mainly of the reasons people were leaving not the amount of people. I think therefore that Elder Cook is correct in that the numbers have probably reduced, yet the reasons for leaving have shifted largely to historical issues.

[Teancum]

To quote part of your post:

 

Saying it does not make it so.

Ok. Carry on, carry on, carry on!

[The Nehor]

Ok. Carry on, carry on, carry on!

 

Will do. Want to join me? Just a few years of pushing through and eventually we can rule the Universe. Sound fun?