Kanye West Was Right. Ces Doesn't Care About Black People.

[mormonnewb]

At least you don't have to do a lesson on Brigham Young. He said that the punishment for having an interracial child is death and always will be.

True, but I can cut BY some slack because HALF of the country still thought that black people should be owned like livestock. ETB lived in an age when we were able to put a man on the moon. So I do expect that he SHOULD have be in favor of putting a black man in a Marriott.

[Stargazer]

Not only did Kanye steal the mic from Taylor Swift, but then he married the woman with a humongus butt and tiny brain Kim Kardashian.

Hmmm. Something along this line has just come across my desk. Charlie Sheen was involved.

[Stargazer]

True, but I can cut BY some slack because HALF of the country still thought that black people should be owned like livestock. ETB lived in an age when we were able to put a man on the moon. So I do expect that he SHOULD have be in favor of putting a black man in a Marriott.

So do you have any evidence that ETB was opposed to putting a black man in a Marriott?

[Bobbieaware]

But Gadianton robbers love him because they so opposed central government that they killed the leader of the centralized government and succeeded in ending it? I think you are oversimplifying.

It's very likely that King Jacob's diabolical plans for a total takeover of the Nephite government simply never had a chance to come to light because he and his power-mad co-conspirators were destroyed by the Lord before they could put their strategy into effect. And it's extremely unlikely that Jacob would have gone to the trouble of destroying the entire Nephite constitutional system without a simultaneous desire to replace that system of Nephite personal freedom with something more to the liking of the devil. In short, whatever Jabob's plans for the future were, they were cut short by the Lord.

It's presumptuous and naive on your part to imagine Jacob would have been satisfied with the simple overthrow of the Nephite government. Because the devil was his master, and because the devil is a totalitarian, Jacob surely had big, devilish ideas that he never had the chance to implement. I don't think you thought this through...

[The Nehor]

It's very likely that King Jacob's diabolical plans for a total takeover of the Nephite government simply never had a chance to come to light because he and his power-mad co-conspirators were destroyed by the Lord before they could put their strategy into effect. And it's extremely unlikely that Jacob would have gone to the trouble of destroying the entire Nephite constitutional system without a simultaneous desire to replace that system of Nephite personal freedom with something more to the liking of the devil. In short, whatever Jabob's plans for the future were, they were cut short by the Lord.

It's presumptuous and naive on your part to imagine Jacob would have been satisfied with the simple overthrow of the Nephite government. Because the devil was his master, and because the devil is a totalitarian, Jacob surely had big, devilish ideas that he never had the chance to implement. I don't think you thought this through...

Of course he was not satisfied with the fall of the government. He was just something of a moron and did not realize how hated he would be if his plan succeeded. He ran away because everyone wanted him dead and hoped to gather enough power to return with a vengeance later. He never got the chance and I doubt he would have even if the Savior had not shown up and wiped him and his people out. He was trying to recruit more followers but I doubt he had much success. The myth of the grand evil campaign of Jacob comes mostly from "Tennis Shoes Among the Nephites" where he is portrayed as a conscious and knowing follower of the devil. More likely he was your standard garden-variety tyrant compensating for something in his life.

[mormonnewb]

So do you have any evidence that ETB was opposed to putting a black man in a Marriott?

I have evidence that he was opposed to legislation that would have required the Marriott to admit blacks. That doesn't mean that he was opposed to blacks staying there. Maybe he just wanted to leave it up to them and HOPE they did the right thing. But unless I see evidence to that effect, it seems more probable that he opposed integration in public accommodations (Marriott or otherwise).

Your move!

[mormonnewb]

You and Kanye? Is he your new Hero? Really, the filthy mouthed guy that grabbed the mic from Taylor Swift and dissed her in front of the world? That Kanye West? Hey, it's ok with me if you don't come back.

So you're offended that I even mentioned Kanye West? After all, he didn't show proper respect for a 16 yo white girl at an awards show. For me to even bring up his name on this sacred discussion board demonstrates my depravity and lack of decency. You certainly wouldn't want to worship with someone like me. I get it.

Now, imagine if I asked you to spend the next year praising the life and works of Kanye West. Well, perhaps NOW, you understand my skepticism about the Church's interest in bringing black saints into the fold. Because while you may hold Taylor Swift in high regard, I promise that black people think even more highly of Dr. King.

And therefore, we are no more inclined to think highly of those who opposed the work that made it possible for us to freely vote, travel, attend the colleges of our choice, etc.

It really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

[Nevo]

True, but I can cut BY some slack because HALF of the country still thought that black people should be owned like livestock. ETB lived in an age when we were able to put a man on the moon. So I do expect that he SHOULD have be in favor of putting a black man in a Marriott.

 

As the Christian apologist David Bentley Hart once remarked, after observing that Pope Gregory XIII had a commemorative medal struck to honor the slaughter of several thousand Huguenot Protestants in the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, "human beings frequently disappoint."

 

But I take comfort in the fact that Ezra Taft Benson's extreme political views were off-putting even to many of his colleagues and that, here and there, and against the odds, a handful of prominent Mormons did speak up for civil rights. Hugh B. Brown and George Romney are two names that come to mind.

[cinepro]

But from an optics standpoint, I'm just surprised that it didn't give the Church pause to name him "Prophet of the Year." Nor did it cause anyone to say, "Hey, this doesn't look so good. Perhaps, we should write an essay to explain this to questioning members."

Or is it just assumed that black members won't have concerns?

 

I think you're looking at this the wrong way.  The lesson manual for this year is a compilation of the "Teachings of President Ezra Taft Benson" that current Church leaders find acceptable.  If something isn't included in the manual, it's the Church's way of saying they don't agree with it, or are embarrassed by it.  It's admission by omission. 

 

Sure, it's a very passive way to disavow the teachings of past leaders, but I think it's the best we'll get.   The native american LDS made it through the year we studied President Kimball, and the LDS scientists survived last year, so I'm sure you'll survive this year. 

Edited January 9, 2015 by cinepro

[rodheadlee]

So you're offended that I even mentioned Kanye West? After all, he didn't show proper respect for a 16 yo white girl at an awards show. For me to even bring up his name on this sacred discussion board demonstrates my depravity and lack of decency. You certainly wouldn't want to worship with someone like me. I get it.

Now, imagine if I asked you to spend the next year praising the life and works of Kanye West. Well, perhaps NOW, you understand my skepticism about the Church's interest in bringing black saints into the fold. Because while you may hold Taylor Swift in high regard, I promise that black people think even more highly of Dr. King.

And therefore, we are no more inclined to think highly of those who opposed the work that made it possible for us to freely vote, travel, attend the colleges of our choice, etc.

It really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

"I'm a big fan of hyperbole myself" to quote a famous ex-Mormon. I can assure you Kanye is no Dr King. Picking on a 16 year old girl is despicable no matter what color she is.

Edited January 9, 2015 by rodheadlee

[readstoomuch]

I am so sad to see race relations seem to be going backwards. Especially among LDS I have seen hundreds of interracial marriages that I was so happy about and are so beautiful. I love getting their Christmas cards and being able to see them. I served with blacks in the military, mission, school and about every where I have lived. Same with Asians and Latinos. I see so many "people" and not think about what color they are or where they are from. I often can't tell.

Every prophet we study has problems. I remember hearing ETB speak in my mission and feeling the great spirit that came from him. Can we just be Saints of all colors preparing the earth for Jesus and learning what we can from these flawed, but inspired men?

[The Nehor]

But I take comfort in the fact that Ezra Taft Benson's extreme political views were off-putting even to many of his colleagues and that, here and there, and against the odds, a handful of prominent Mormons did speak up for civil rights. Hugh B. Brown and George Romney are two names that come to mind.

I take even greater solace in the fact that if the Lord can use and save ETB even though he was a conspiracy nut then there may be some hope for me. I do not really want perfect prophets. They are undergoing the same tests for exaltation we are. If the bar for salvation is high for them it is equally high for everyone else.

[mfbukowski]

I don't think President Benson's suspicion of the civil rights movement had anything to do with race.  It was all about his fear of communism.  Had MLK been a member of the John Birch Society I think he would have embraced him with open arms.  Although, I must admit it is unfortunate, then Elder Benson, chose to lend his name to this particular fear-mongering book:

 

 

I also suspect he may have come to regret recommending the nonsensical and absurd "None Dare Call it a Conspiracy" over the pulpit at General Conference.

Even I am not old enough to fully grasp how crazy it was in the '50s worrying about communists but I remember enough.  I don't know that anyone who was not there can appreciate it.

 

Even as a kid, I was worried that "they would take over" and we would all be herded into prison camps.  Remember WWII was only a few years earlier, and everyone saw Communists as the same kind of totalitarians that the Nazis had been.  I was actually afraid, because the culture was afraid.

 

It is hard to imagine that now, almost laughable, but that was the way it was.  ETB was doing what he thought was best to save the world.  If we are going to judge him, we should judge him based on him doing what he thought was the best he could do, because that is what he was doing.

 

But I agree that studying him right now might not have been the most politically correct option.

 

And as a student radical in the 60's and a student of Angela Davis when she was at UCLA, there was no doubt that the civil rights movement contained a lot of communists.  Of course I had no problem with that then, nor do I now.  Those were the "good guys" and that is how I saw them then and now.  I was a pretty dogmatic Trot and still sympathize with that view at least philosophically, though my politics has changed.  But the world view in general is right on the money - I just disagree with the political tactics.

 

But you just cannot know the paranoia of the 50's unless you were there.

Edited January 9, 2015 by mfbukowski

[BCSpace]

I think you're looking at this the wrong way.  The lesson manual for this year is a compilation of the "Teachings of President Ezra Taft Benson" that current Church leaders find acceptable.  If something isn't included in the manual, it's the Church's way of saying they don't agree with it, or are embarrassed by it.  It's admission by omission. 

 

Sure, it's a very passive way to disavow the teachings of past leaders, but I think it's the best we'll get.   The native american LDS made it through the year we studied President Kimball, and the LDS scientists survived last year, so I'm sure you'll survive this year. 

 

I think you left off not enough room and not important from your list.  Seems to be the most likely explanation for most cases.

[BCSpace]

Even I am not old enough to fully grasp how crazy it was in the '50s worrying about communists but I remember enough.  I don't know that anyone who was not there can appreciate it.

 

Even as a kid, I was worried that "they would take over" and we would all be herded into prison camps.  Remember WWII was only a few years earlier, and everyone saw Communists as the same kind of totalitarians that the Nazis had been.  I was actually afraid, because the culture was afraid.

 

 

That reminds me a lot of this:

 

Now it came to pass that there were many of the rising generation that could not understand the words of king Benjamin, being little children at the time he spake unto his people; and they did not believe the tradition of their fathers.

Mosiah 26:1

[mfbukowski]

I'm a big fan of hyperbole myself, but do you think that I'm really suggesting that we vilify everyone who got it wrong on civil rights? And do you not see a distinction between excommunication and deification?

I just wonder if anybody even thought, "Hey, given Pres. Taft's quite vocal opposition to civil rights and given our recent efforts to move away from past rationalizations and justifications for the priesthood ban, perhaps we might want to spend the next year lionizing one of our prophets who was not a booster for a hate group?"

And this isn't unreasonable. The Church seems to have given considerable thought to how women think about a number of issues over the last year or so. Do blacks need to start an OB (Omit Benson) movement for anyone to even consider that some of us might not want to spend the next year telling everyone in my quorum about ETB's holiness and righteousness?

you might want to talk about the gospel and forget ETB.  Concentrate on what he said, not his life.  It might be interesting to try to find the good in someone you see as an enemy.  But that's easy for me to say..

 

Hey- Straight up?  I can't stand singing "Hail to the prophet ascended to heaven...." but I do.  It forces me to see those who saw him that way in a new light.

 

It's kind of an interesting thought experiment that takes me out of myself to see the world entirely differently for a few minutes.

[Garden Girl]

I have evidence that he was opposed to legislation that would have required the Marriott to admit blacks. That doesn't mean that he was opposed to blacks staying there. Maybe he just wanted to leave it up to them and HOPE they did the right thing. But unless I see evidence to that effect, it seems more probable that he opposed integration in public accommodations (Marriott or otherwise).

Your move!

 

Again you make wild assumptions... do you have evidence that the Marriott did not admit blacks?  Or "more probable" that he opposed integration? ... Probable??  Perhaps you should get actual facts straight...

ETB is not one of my favorites because of the JBS... but I agree with other posters who have stated his actual position in regards to blacks, communism, etc.

 

GG

[Stargazer]

I have evidence that he was opposed to legislation that would have required the Marriott to admit blacks. That doesn't mean that he was opposed to blacks staying there. Maybe he just wanted to leave it up to them and HOPE they did the right thing. But unless I see evidence to that effect, it seems more probable that he opposed integration in public accommodations (Marriott or otherwise).

Your move!

Move? Are we playing a game? 5 moves until checkmate or something?

I tend to agree with ETB politically. I would stay in a tent in preference to staying in a hotel, for example, that discriminated on the basis of race, but I do not hold to the notion that there is a state compelling interest which requires forcing hotels to not discriminate. I realize that this is a minority viewpoint. Public accommodation or not, if the hotel owns the land it sits upon, let it do whatever it wants, however stupid it is. If I had the means, I would open a competing hotel next door and drive it out of business by inviting all to stay there regardless of race. And this would inevitably happen in a pluralistic society such as we now have.

I hate racism with every fibre of my being. I am part Native American, and one image from my great great grandmother's life stands out in my mind: her hiding in an attic holding her half-blood oldest son (my great granduncle) and watching as the California state militia drove her people -- including her parents and three sisters) through town to a far-off reservation. But I also realize that trying to force everyone to stop being racist is a fool's errand.

In Ezra Taft Benson's book "An Enemy Hath Done This", published in 1969, chapter 13 discusses the civil rights movement.

"In 1942, President Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, and David O. McKay warned us about the increasing threat to our Constitution, caused by the revolutionists who, the First Presidentcy said, were "using a technique that is as old as the human race -- a fervid, but false solicitude for the unfortunate, over whom they thus gain mastery, and then enslave them. They suit their approaches to the particular group they seek to deceive." (First Presidency, Conference Report, April 1942, p. 90)

"That timely counsel about a "fervid, but false solicitude for the unfortunate" could have saved China and Cuba if enough people knew what the communist "master of deceit" really had in mind when they promised agrarian reform. Such timely counsel could help save our country from communism, as the same "masters of deceit" are showing the same false solicitude for the unfortunate in the name of civil rights.

"Now there is nothing wrong with civil rights -- it is what's being done in the name of civil rights that is alarming. There is no doubt that the so-called Civil Rights Movement as it exists today is used as a communist program for revolution in America, just as agrarian reform was used by the communists to take over China and Cuba."

I would quote more, but if you are like me you tend not to read thousand-line screeds.

I wish I could get you to read this entire chapter. The book is long out of print, although it's available used for rather high prices. Benson does cite and quote a number of black journalists and activists who were also warning about the communist influence in the CRM. Among the things that Benson wrote about was HOW the CRM was being used to guide the USA towards communism. Note that Benson wasn't blaming blacks, he was blaming professional communist agitators who were setting up the black people to be cannon fodder in feared insurrection. He had this to say about these agitators: "...most of [them] are white men who fully intend to destroy America by spilling Negro blood, rather than their own."

Benson made it abundantly clear that he had nothing against black people. He just believed that they were being made the stalking horse of communist agitators. He wanted everyone to be aware of the stakes in the game, and especially wanted black people to be made aware of how they were being used. In one of the concluding paragraphs he wrote:

"Each of us must be willing to discuss the problem openly with our friends -- especially those of the Negro race. The success or failure of Americans of all races to meet this challenge may well determine the fate of our country." If we fail, we will all lose our civil rights, black man and white man together, for we will live under perfect communist equality -- the equality of slaves."

Do you not think that his heart was at least in the right place, even if you don't think that communism was any danger?

 

I know that you would rather have had Ezra Taft Benson marching with Martin Luther King, Jr, but given that he believed that King was being misled and deceived by forces intent upon the destruction of the United States, how could he have done so?  And the writings of speeches of other members of the Quorum of the Twelve and even the President of the Church, David O. McKay, agreed with Benson.  Even if they did try to get him to tone down his rhetoric.

[strappinglad]

Currently there are about 425,000 members in all the countries of Africa. A significant percentage are black. That is twice as many members as there are in Canada and about the same as there are in Arizona.

A substantial percentage of members in Brazil and Central America and the Caribbean also have African ancestry. The Church is growing the fastest in Africa. It must be doing something right despite its failings in the past.

A fascinating look at the distribution patterns of members around the world is found on Wikipedia.

Edited January 9, 2015 by strappinglad

[mfbukowski]

I am so sad to see race relations seem to be going backwards. Especially among LDS I have seen hundreds of interracial marriages that I was so happy about and are so beautiful. I love getting their Christmas cards and being able to see them. I served with blacks in the military, mission, school and about every where I have lived. Same with Asians and Latinos. I see so many "people" and not think about what color they are or where they are from. I often can't tell.

Every prophet we study has problems. I remember hearing ETB speak in my mission and feeling the great spirit that came from him. Can we just be Saints of all colors preparing the earth for Jesus and learning what we can from these flawed, but inspired men?

Some of my best friends.....  Oh nevermind.

[Stargazer]

Again you make wild assumptions... do you have evidence that the Marriott did not admit blacks?  Or "more probable" that he opposed integration? ... Probable??  Perhaps you should get actual facts straight...

ETB is not one of my favorites because of the JBS... but I agree with other posters who have stated his actual position in regards to blacks, communism, etc.

 

GG

 

I've never been a member of the JBS, nor really much cared about it one way or another, but this discussion caused me to do some checking up on them.

 

See my post here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64779-kanye-west-was-right-ces-doesnt-care-about-black-people/#entry1209454121 which discusses the JBS connection with Mormon leaders.

 

So what is so horrible about the John Birch Society?

Edited January 9, 2015 by Stargazer

[mfbukowski]

That reminds me a lot of this:

 

Now it came to pass that there were many of the rising generation that could not understand the words of king Benjamin, being little children at the time he spake unto his people; and they did not believe the tradition of their fathers.

Mosiah 26:1

Well I got better.....

[The Nehor]

So what is so horrible about the John Birch Society?

 

Being a militant purveyor of fear is why I would call them horrible.

[Stargazer]

Being a militant purveyor of fear is why I would call them horrible.

 

"Militant"? 

 

So you think that the communists were joking all along?  That when Khrushchev said "We will bury you" he was merely offering a burial plot insurance plan?

 

Or that this:

 

The Black Book of Communism

 

consisted of statistics made up from tossing random numbers around?

 

We needed to fear communism.  We still do.  Or was David O. McKay a false prophet?

 

 

"The position of this Church on the subject of communism has never changed.  We consider it the greatest Satanical threat to peace, prosperity and the spread of God's work among men that exists on the face of the earth."  CR, April 1966, p. 109

[BlueDreams]

However, what I don't understand is that the Church seems to have taken no thought to how a black person might feel sitting through an entire year of hour long-lessons extolling the virtues of a man who closely aligned himself with the John Birch Society, which has been classified as a "hate group" (albeit a non-violent one). Did anyone even THINK that some black members might find this disconcerting? And more pertinently, does anyone in leadership even care?

My guess is NOT, because this is so obvious if one is paying attention AT ALL. You don't ask black people to stand up and extol the virtue of people who supported segregation during their lifetimes. Full stop. Period. The fact that no one seems to have even give this a second thought seems to indicate just how eager the Church is to bring black Americans into the fold. Not very.

Why is this so hard for anyone but me (and Kanye) to see?

I'm sitting here, past midnight, thinking about how I should probably study my scriptures and go to bed. I'm also thinking about how today I had a facebook conversation in the wake of the shootings in France with someone I love who posted an article about how Islam was the most violent religion in the world. Which led me to think about the number of other mildly obtuse thoughts that have come from a number of people that I've cared for. 

 

And then I think about the fact that I've had 3 other conversations with varying minorities about moments of discrimination/racial discomfort they felt effected them in some way that came in the last week alone. I thought about how a number of the issues ebbed and flowed into the LDS communities here in UT, the overarching US community, etc. 

 

And now I'm reading this. And frankly I don't know what I'm thinking. I'm not sure if I get where you're going with this at all. Personally I don't think of ETB immediately by, what especially seems at my youth-superior position, his political insanity when I'm sitting at church reading this manual about something he taught about God or a principle of some sort (Ok, honestly I wasn't even there for the first lesson with ETB....decided I needed some personal TLC with God up in a mountain after sacrament meeting instead). I think the point is to begin to see the people as multifaceted...that he did have good virtues. Just as my still slightly racist grandma has virtues worth mentioning (she's maintained her faith, serves in the temple, was able to show decency to a man most would view as scum that she divorced, and is still moving after having a fairly long and hard life, etc). The simple fact is that it's a disservice to paint with solely broad brushes on small canvases.

 

To me your post begs the question: can someone have a major fault and still be a person of good value worth learning from because he could still be used as the Lord needed? For all of our sakes I hope the answer is yes. It also begs the question of how many black people sit and ponder the odd political history of a 1950's secretary of agriculture who saw communists wherever he turned (including in the foundation of the civil rights movement) while reading about his work as a prophet 20-30 years after that. Can't speak for them, but it just isn't my first thought. Or my 4th.

 

 

Also the problem with Kanye is the dude paints a stick figure with a paint-roller and assumes he's just created the next Mona Lisa.

 

 

You know, bed sounds right right now, I don't think I made the least bit of sense right now. Minus Kanye... that had to make sense. 

 

With luv,

Bd

Edited January 9, 2015 by BlueDreams