Kanye West Was Right. Ces Doesn't Care About Black People.

[The Nehor]

Blissful ignorance does have its advantages.

I am just going off of scripture. Secret Combinations in scripture would be almost adorable in their buffoonery and ineptness. They almost never succeed at their plans, they are constantly giving away their secrets, and they cannot seem to avoid killing themselves off. They are like the Three Stooges with chainsaws. Funny and bloody.

Their danger is not existing. The danger is when people align themselves with them and damn themselves and destroy themselves. I am not worried about the Communist conspiracy. I am worried that enough John Q Idiots will join with them and throw away their morals in a struggle for wealth, power, and lust. Then you get another group that pushes back and they form their own secret combination and throw out their morals for the cause. Then you watch Shiz and Coriantumr kill millions in a meaningless battle. Dark comedy at its finest. The secret is not to be aware of all these secret combinations (which are universally clumsily blatant) but to avoid selling out the Savior for their promises, no matter how good the future they promise seems.

The naive are the ones reading fictional thrillers about clandestine organization crafting well-executed plans and imagining they are fighting modern gadiantons.

[stemelbow]

I was referring to the Brother Smith who gave you a rep point.

Oh that guy...yeah he seems like he can't comprehend a simple sentence...oh wait. I take that back. He seems to be about one of the most intelligent amongst us. I didn't know he'd stoop to giving me a rep point. Wahoo. I'm big time. I was on the fence in responding to your insensitivity seeing as others had already said their piece, but now I'm really glad I did. That was a huge payoff for my ego.

[Kenngo1969]

Oh that guy...yeah he seems like he can't comprehend a simple sentence...oh wait. I take that back. He seems to be about one of the most intelligent amongst us. I didn't know he'd stoop to giving me a rep point. Wahoo. I'm big time. I was on the fence in responding to your insensitivity seeing as others had already said their piece, but now I'm really glad I did. That was a huge payoff for my ego.

I'm sure Brother Smith is plenty intelligent, whatever my disagreement with him.  Indeed, it seems to be humility he occasionally lacks.  He delights, at least to a certain extent and at least on occasion, in trumpeting his academic credentials (at least implicitly, if not explicitly) and telling people he thinks aren't quite as erudite as he that, if only they had better academic credentials, they could come closer to seeing the world as he does.  (Alas, whatever else he may or may not be ignorant of, he's ignorant of my academic credentials.)  But, no matter.  You two have fun stroking each other's egos, even if you do it at someone else's expense.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[VideoGameJunkie]

I will be happy when we get a black GA in the 15. That will truly be a wonderful day for the church showing it's progress.

[stemelbow]

I'm sure Brother Smith is plenty intelligent, whatever my disagreement with him.  Indeed, it seems to be humility he occasionally lacks.  He delights, at least to a certain extent and at least on occasion, in trumpeting his academic credentials (at least implicitly, if not explicitly) and telling people he thinks aren't quite as erudite as he that, if only they had better academic credentials, they could come closer to seeing the world as he does.  (Alas, whatever else he may or may not be ignorant of, he's ignorant of my academic credentials.)  But, no matter.  You two have fun stroking each other's egos, even if you do it at someone else's expense.

Better than mocking a black man I don't know for doing something stupid some years ago in a thread started by someone worried about the Church's sensitivity to race.

[why me]

I will be happy when we get a black GA in the 15. That will truly be a wonderful day for the church showing it's progress.

We need to remember that much is up to heavenly father. Sometimes church members can forget who runs the church. So, the question is: Will heavenly father be progressive enough to ordain an african to the 12?

[stemelbow]

 

We need to remember that much is up to heavenly father. Sometimes church members can forget who runs the church. So, the question is: Will heavenly father be progressive enough to ordain an african to the 12?

uh....

[Kenngo1969]

Better than mocking a black man I don't know for doing something stupid some years ago in a thread started by someone worried about the Church's sensitivity to race.

Hey, if you (along with the thread's originator and anyone else who wishes to do so) want to make Kanye West your standard bearer for racial progressiveness in America, you (and anyone else who wishes to do so) can have him. Personally, I think there are far better role models, but if that's what floats your boat, go for it.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[why me]

uh....

I have been taught that god calls people to callings in the church, especially the general authorities. Am I wrong? If I am correct, then it is up to heavenly father to call africans and other people of color to leadership positions in the church. If heavenly father does not do this and if the church is just a man made church and people decide who gets leadership positions, then of course, the leadership can fire a couple of GAs and replace them with african americans or with other people of color.

 

Who leads the lds church, god or man?

Edited January 9, 2015 by why me

[ERayR]

I am just going off of scripture. Secret Combinations in scripture would be almost adorable in their buffoonery and ineptness. They almost never succeed at their plans, they are constantly giving away their secrets, and they cannot seem to avoid killing themselves off. They are like the Three Stooges with chainsaws. Funny and bloody.

Their danger is not existing. The danger is when people align themselves with them and damn themselves and destroy themselves. I am not worried about the Communist conspiracy. I am worried that enough John Q Idiots will join with them and throw away their morals in a struggle for wealth, power, and lust. Then you get another group that pushes back and they form their own secret combination and throw out their morals for the cause. Then you watch Shiz and Coriantumr kill millions in a meaningless battle. Dark comedy at its finest. The secret is not to be aware of all these secret combinations (which are universally clumsily blatant) but to avoid selling out the Savior for their promises, no matter how good the future they promise seems.

The naive are the ones reading fictional thrillers about clandestine organization crafting well-executed plans and imagining they are fighting modern gadiantons.

 

Secrete combinations destroyed two civilizations.  Pretty deadly buffoons.

[VideoGameJunkie]

They don't need to fire any GAs. A couple are in their 90s and in declining health. When they pass, I hope that a minority is called to the 12.

[The Nehor]

Secrete combinations destroyed two civilizations.  Pretty deadly buffoons.

No, that the ideals and goals of the combinations becoming general and destroying virtue destroyed the civilizations. The combinations failed. Suicide was not their end-goal. They are run by sad little men with delusions of grandeur. Again, great dark comedy as they continually fail. At least it would be if they were not envied and emulated.

[ERayR]

No, that the ideals and goals of the combinations becoming general and destroying virtue destroyed the civilizations. The combinations failed. Suicide was not their end-goal. They are run by sad little men with delusions of grandeur. Again, great dark comedy as they continually fail. At least it would be if they were not envied and emulated.

 

Parse words all you want when it was all done the civilizations were destroyed and they would not have been without the secret combinations.

[Kenngo1969]

They don't need to fire any GAs. A couple are in their 90s and in declining health. When they pass, I hope that a minority is called to the 12.

Hey, if God wills it, I'm all for it.  And what's more, I even have the temerity to believe that God (what, He being Omniscient and Omnipotent and all) can get such an idea through President Thomas S. Monson's thick skull!

[Kenngo1969]

They don't need to fire any GAs. A couple are in their 90s and in declining health. When they pass, I hope that a minority is called to the 12.

Funnily enough, God's in charge of that too!  Whodathunk!

[The Nehor]

Parse words all you want when it was all done the civilizations were destroyed and they would not have been without the secret combinations.

The point is that they by themselves are not truly dangerous. Joining them is. In other words it is better to spend your time avoiding getting caught up in the rather then tracking them and fighting them which is what people want to do because it makes them feel like heroes defying the darkness.

And no, their existence did not destroy the nations. We are told they exist among all nations. If their presence ended civilizations we would have been toast a long time ago. It is when people joine them and support them en masse that civilizations end.

[mfbukowski]

I was with you right up to the very end. I can see conflating ISIS with US Muslims (sort of), but how does one conflate the Soviets with a black girl wanting to go to public school in Arkansas?

Was the thought that Kruschev (sp?) had made a special deal with King? "Okay, Martin. We'll help you get that little girl into a 4th grade classroom, but in return, we want the overthrow of the American government."

And even assuming the King had made such a deal, why wouldn't the Birchers just approach King with a better deal. "Okay, Martin. We'll let TWO little black girls into the school, AND we'll throw in a big screen TV."

Seriously, I find it hard to believe that anyone truly thought denying little black kids a decent education was the answer to the Soviet menace. It seems more likely that fighting communism was just a much more palatable justification for resisting integration efforts than saying, "They have cooties!"

I was not conflating anything- that was an ANALOGY, and I stand by it.  OF COURSE it has nothing to do with a little girl wanting to attend school.

 

I was trying to produce a gut-wrenching analogy for young readers to understand how threatening communism was in the 1950's, not a justification for racism.  I was talking about PERCEPTIONS, correct or not.

 

I know you are justifiably sensitive on these issues, but at least try to take comments in the way they are intended instead of instantly jumping to the conclusion that they are attacks.

Edited January 9, 2015 by mfbukowski

[BlueDreams]

I liked your response for the most part, but I struggle to understand this last basic point (the point I agree with but to argue it here is unexpected to me).

If I were to follow the above logic (not throwing out opportunities to learn from our past) through to it's end, I think we might have plenty of room to include far more from Benson, instead of just the stuff they like now, and far more of our actual history in our teaching material. For example, polygamy is used as a joke these days in Church, but as we've learned in recent years, it's not so much polygamy but the details of how it went down that has really caused people to go down that losing faith path. Instead of using the details as a means to learn from our past, we ignore them hoping most members don't look into them--which is for the most part working in terms of keeping people from questioning and leaving (even though large amounts are leaving because of tough historic issues, the problem isn't big enough because many chapels are still full). The narrative concerning the priesthood ban is it's behind us, and it was always going to be that they would receive the priesthood, forgetting the bigoted views held by prophets that the priesthood ban was instituted because blacks were less valiant, and are cursed as to the priesthood.

history can teach us a lot. I agree. But if we pretend that watered down history is all that is useful, then we pretty much belie the claim that we are learning from our past.

 

Stemelbow, I'm having a little bit of a hard time following you on this. But to the first part, why not bring up that last point? I don't think every gruesome detail from the past needs to be laid out and hashed out in a meeting that isn't hyper-focused on a history lesson. But I don't have an abject need to have truth be as smooth as whipped cream when we study it. God's people have had a messy history from Adam and even and I think it does us a disservice to assume that that messiness largely stopped soon after the OT came around. I'm not a big polygamy buff (though none of the major details are super foreign to me either) because it's not my cup of tea when I have free time to look things up. But the logical conclusion is simply that erasing or ignoring history isn't going to work. It leaves us with a shallow sense of statements like "the prophets aren't perfect" and gives room to some false security that all is well in Zion or that we've basically made it. We haven't and still have space to grow. I don't know if pointing out the details of every stained past is necessary, but I do believe that reminding ourselves that we do have stains and some of those are still with us  is needed.

 

What I see here is basically white people attempting to discuss these issues with a black man. And it seems that the white people are constantly on the defensive. However,  when mormonnewb discusses his issues with the genesis group, such misunderstandings of racism or defensiveness that could occur on this thread would not happen there.

Well last time I check I'm still Mixed....and I'm pretty sure I haven't been quiet about that. So there's that. And though I think it would be good for Newb to get to know more of the Black LDS community through things like Genesis, I also think that it's a mistake to leave this as a conversations better left for people of color. Racial issues are not something that can be solved with only a part of the society in question talking about it. 

 

 

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

The point is that they by themselves are not truly dangerous. Joining them is. In other words it is better to spend your time avoiding getting caught up in the rather then tracking them and fighting them which is what people want to do because it makes them feel like heroes defying the darkness.

And no, their existence did not destroy the nations. We are told they exist among all nations. If their presence ended civilizations we would have been toast a long time ago. It is when people joine them and support them en masse that civilizations end.

The way the secret combinations were successfully fought in the BoM was by preaching the Gospel and changing the hearts of the people, so I agree with you in part. But even a secret combination of two people who think they are above it all can cause tremendous sorrow for others who were not the least involved...still I would leave the seeking of such things to professionals who are there to protect the public from criminals and put our effort into supporting them rather than getting into it ourselves because it seems from the conversations I've observed that often those obsessed with such things in order to expose them create their own version of antisocial combination that eats at our communities not in a criminal way, but by destroying the trust and care that binds us together by promoting paranoia, fear and even hate. Edited January 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I have been taught that god calls people to callings in the church, especially the general authorities. Am I wrong? If I am correct, then it is up to heavenly father to call africans and other people of color to leadership positions in the church. If heavenly father does not do this and if the church is just a man made church and people decide who gets leadership positions, then of course, the leadership can fire a couple of GAs and replace them with african americans or with other people of color.

Who leads the lds church, god or man?

IMO, mostly men because there have been so many changes and mistakes in the church throughout it's existence. But finally I think the leaders are close to getting alot right. Edited January 10, 2015 by Tacenda

[Bobbieaware]

The way the secret combinations were successfully fought in the BoM was by preaching the Gospel and changing the hearts of the people, so I agree with you in part. But even a secret combination of two people who think they are above it all can cause tremendous sorrow for others who were not the least involved...still I would leave the seeking of such things to professionals who are there to protect the public from criminals and put our effort into supporting them rather than getting into it ourselves because it seems from the conversations I've observed that often those obsessed with such things in order to expose them create their own version of antisocial combination that eats at our communities not in a criminal way, but by destroying the trust and care that binds us together by promoting paranoia, fear and even hate.

The Nephites not only fought the secret combinations by preaching the Gospel -- they also fought them through the aggressive application of military power. I bring this undeniable fact into the discussion not because I desire to see the horrors of war proliferate in our day, but because it is quite simply the truth. Like it or not, agree with it or not, whether it be the Gadiantons, or Kingmen, or Nephite dissenters, or blood-oath bound conspirators, the Nephites employed aggressive military power to combat their treacherous enemies.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[mormonnewb]

Don't deal with the substance of anything I've said; simply dismiss me by pigeonholing me as a racist and be done with it!  Bravo!

 

You wouldn't be the first person, here or elsewhere, to do that, let alone the best.  Don't expect me to lose any sleep over what some anonymous Internet posters think of me; there are some people in the world who don't have a very high opinion of me, and I feel rather bad about that; there are others who don't have such a high opinion of me, and, by contrast, I wear that as a badge of honor!  This may come as a shock to you, but I really am OK with putting you (and anyone else here, for that matter) in the second category, rather than the first!

 

P.S.: To be perfectly consistent, you'll have to admit that Vice President Joe Biden is racist for calling President (then-candidate) Obama, "Articulate and bright and clean!"  But don't worry; I won't hold my breath: I'm sure Ol' Joe gets a pass because of his party affiliation.

First of all, it is you who wasn't dealing with the substance of the conversation. This is not a thread about Kanye West. It is about the Church's approach to racial issues. The Kanye reference was simply an amusing way to start the conversation. However, you let your maniacal hatred of a rapper lead you into mocking the speech of a young black man, bringing (very mild) rebuke from other posters. Plain and simple. You brought that on yourself.

More pertinently, this is not the first time that we've been down this road. Somehow the mention of race on the board seems to bring out the worst in you. I have no doubt that you are a kind and gentle man in most respects, but your visceral reaction in these matters seems to be a case of "thou protesteth too much."

Everyday, someone comes onto this board and attacks the truths you hold most sacred. And you manage to weather the attack with good grace (and even a sense of humor). So what is it about the issue of race that drives you over the edge?

And do yourself a favor, and don't answer that too quickly, nor in Ebonics (sooty, I really couldn't help myself there).

[Calm]

I have seen others mention race in the past with nothing unusual in Ken's responses. It is not a trigger word for him. My memory says it is your comments on race and church that seems to bring out a more assertive version of Ken...hardly because you are black though because it doesnt happen with others.

Perhaps this is how he expresses his distaste with the way you appear to use race and people's reactions to your comments about it to manipulate emotions and create misperceptions for your desired reaction. I express my distaste for manipulation by simply reading the good comments by others that on occasion somehow struggle to the top of the mishmash of predictable comments you and a few others who join you throw out once they figure out your desired script.

Ken.....I would advise that it would be wisdom for you to avoid further discussions in his arena, the end is almost guaranteed to end up at his goal...one which you like won't care for. Why bother? Leave it to Blue Dreams who has the Golden Touch for whatever subject she dips into to enlighten and expand.

Edited January 10, 2015 by calmoriah

[why me]

 

Well last time I check I'm still Mixed....and I'm pretty sure I haven't been quiet about that. So there's that. And though I think it would be good for Newb to get to know more of the Black LDS community through things like Genesis, I also think that it's a mistake to leave this as a conversations better left for people of color. Racial issues are not something that can be solved with only a part of the society in question talking about it. 

 

 

With luv,

BD

My point was that mormonnewb tends to bring up race in every thread he starts and makes it known that he is black. I tend to believe that this is done for a reason. And most people on this site are probably white giving the racial makeup of the church. In every thread about race, the race issue is raised and discussions, debates, disagreements begin between different races and usually ends with nothing accomplished or achieved, until the next thread is started again. I think that it would be much better for mormonnewb to join genesis and get a black perspective on these issues. They would certainly understand his feelings and intents better than whites etc who have had different experiences because of the color of their skin. I only say this because of the amount of race threads mormonnewb starts and continues to start to rile up the board.

 

I do agree that conversations are welcome here too but since there have now been countless threads about racism and the lds church started by mormonnewb, he may find it useful to get perspectives from the genesis group. It may help him find some peace. If i were a critic of the church, I could come to this board and nitpick my way through the past and attack the church to my hearts content. All churches could be attacked in such ways. But the conversation will go nowhere because my sole intent would be for people to defend from my attacks. And since we are speaking about the past, it would be endless because we  can only offer interpetations about why this happened or why a past leader believed or said what he believed or said.

 

But what about the present? It would be wonderful to discuss race relations in the church in the present tense.

Edited January 10, 2015 by why me

[why me]

I have seen others mention race in the past with nothing unusual in Ken's responses. It is not a trigger word for him. My memory says it is your comments on race and church that seems to bring out a more assertive version of Ken...hardly because you are black though because it doesnt happen with others.

Perhaps this is how he expresses his distaste with the way you appear to use race and people's reactions to your comments about it to manipulate emotions and create misperceptions for your desired reaction. I express my distaste for manipulation by simply reading the good comments by others that on occasion somehow struggle to the top of the mishmash of predictable comments you and a few others who join you throw out once they figure out your desired script.

 

My point exactly when I have commented on past threads too. I find it all becoming a little boring now. Too predictable when the race card is mentiioned over and over again and why I suggested mormonnewb to join the genesis group. I have this feeling that these race discussions are just meant to wind up the people on the board. I see very little use in countless race threads about the past. But I would see more use in threads about race in the present tense.

 

Here is mormonnewb's comment to Kenggo:

 

And do yourself a favor, and don't answer that too quickly, nor in Ebonics (sooty, I really couldn't help myself there).

 

I can't take it anymore..the mocking and superior tone is annoying me. Another such mocking poster would not have lasted so long.