Has the church made progress with race since the revelation on the priesthood?

[USU78]

14 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Not a weapon. I just think there should be diversity at the top. 14 of the Q15 are old white guys from Utah. You call that diversity at the top? 

You haven't  paid attention at all. Bye

[ksfisher]

16 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Not a weapon. I just think there should be diversity at the top. 14 of the Q15 are old white guys from Utah. You call that diversity at the top? 

Those "old white guys" are apostles of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  It would seem like a little respect would be appropriate.

[Jeanne]

26 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Not a weapon. I just think there should be diversity at the top. 14 of the Q15 are old white guys from Utah. You call that diversity at the top? 

Wow

[Calm]

Just an FYI, Hales is from New York, Bednar is from California.

And we are talking about people born in the 1950s and earlier when a significant majority of LDS were in Utah.

Add-on:  correcting as I am a bit off...

"GEOGRAPHIC DISTRIBUTION. Growth has been accompanied by shifting distribution of the population. The first few decades were marked by several relocations of a core LDS community and by a substantial infusion of new convert immigrants from Great Britain and northern Europe. By the turn of the century, the core of the Church was firmly established in Utah (Fig. 3). In 1930 one of every two Latter-day Saints resided in Utah, an additional 30 percent lived in the western United States, and another 11 percent lived in the rest of the United States or Canada. In short, the membership was largely in the United States (90 percent) and concentrated in the Great Basin.

By 1960, 90 percent of the membership still lived in the United States; but Utah's share had declined by 10 percent, and the other western states had gained 10 percent. After 1960, significant expansion of the international membership is evident. The share of members in South America increased from 1 percent in 1960 to 16 percent in 1989. In the same period, Mexico and Central America increased from 1 percent to 11 percent, and an Asian population appeared with 5 percent of the total. The share of the population has remained fairly stable for Europe (4-5 percent) and the South Pacific islands (3-4 percent). Although a majority of the membership still resides in the United States (57 percent), an increasingly international mix is evident. Rapid growth between 1980 and 1989 in countries such as the Philippines (from 57,000 to 213,000), Mexico (from 237,000 to 569,000), and Brazil (from 102,000 to 311,000), along with potential new sources of growth in Africa, East Europe, and Asia, implies dramatic shifts in the distribution of Church membership."

From EoM

Edited July 14, 2016 by Calm

[VideoGameJunkie]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just an FYI, Hales is from New York, Bednar is from California.

And we are talking about people born in the 1950s and earlier when a significant majority of LDS were in Utah.

They could have really made a leap to help minorities feel better back in October when they called 3 new apostles. That was a missed opportunity. With the racist history in the church, it could have undone so much damage to minorities.

Edited July 14, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

They could have really made a leap to help minorities feel better back in October when they called 3 new apostles. That was a missed opportunity. With the racist history in the church, it could have undone so much damage to minorities.

I don't think you are taking into consideration the fact that apostles are called by the Lord, through revelation.  

[Calm]

Hmmm...I am not certain about undoing damage already done.  It would be nice if that were true, but I have my doubts if there is damage, that one appointment would make a significant difference.

[VideoGameJunkie]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Hmmm...I am not certain about undoing damage already done.  It would be nice if that were true, but I have my doubts if there is damage, that one appointment would make a significant difference.

It'd certainly help.

[gopher]

31 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

It'd certainly help.

I'm not convinced it would make much difference.  Having a black president hasn't improved the racial problems in the US.  I can be content with the apostles the Lord calls.

[Duncan]

Would I welcome a Black or Asian or Spanish Apostle sure but what investigator will look at the Q12 and see who's there and join or not join. I'd be surprised converts even know that there is a Q12

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Not a weapon. I just think there should be diversity at the top. 14 of the Q15 are old white guys from Utah. You call that diversity at the top? 

 

2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Not a weapon. I just think there should be diversity at the top. 14 of the Q15 are old white guys from Utah. You call that diversity at the top? 

Yeah it's a crime to be an old white guy these days. Thank God I'm not from Utah.😎

[VideoGameJunkie]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

 

Yeah it's a crime to be an old white guy these days. Thank God I'm not from Utah.😎

Check your white privilege at the door. Haha

[USU78]

13 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

No. It's called lived experience. 

But I do judge....like how someone could pick up one line from a post and assume judgmental posturing that is almost never in my posts in the first place.

Rocks/glass houses comes to mind. 

With luv, 

BD

I see. You get to judge if you really really know, unlike the idiots who don't. And being black trumps everything. 

[BlueDreams]

15 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I see. You get to judge if you really really know, unlike the idiots who don't. And being black trumps everything. 

If these are the messages you're getting from me, you are very much not seeing. There is nothing that I've said that would suggest such. And some things that literally contradict it.

One liners are really not helping you. Say something substantial and I'll think to respond.

Until then I think I'll quote you: "You haven't  paid attention at all. Bye"

 

With luv,

BD

[thesometimesaint]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

TSS, it would be helpful to CFR those studies.

Sure.

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf

http://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-of-crime-and-support-for-punitive-policies/

[gopher]

I hold the unpopular opinion that we are having too many instead of too few conversations about race, at least in the U.S.  I think it's doing more harm than good.  This new sobering poll shows in 7 years Americans with a positive opinion of race relations has gone from 66% to 26%   (see https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/negative-views-of-race-relations-reach-all-time-high-cbs-nyt-poll/ar-BBuj98G?li=AA4ZnC).  I don't think our conversations about race are making white racists change.  Instead, it seems we are convincing non-racist white people that they really are unconsciously racist and shaming them with things like "white privilege".  At the same time, if black people are always on the lookout for racist "dog-whistles", it's hard to build any trust in white people.  It's like a "racism contagion" that is fueled by people who have no interest in actually resolving the issues.  I'm no expert so all this is opinion, of course.

From an LDS perspective, I think we can build trust by working, serving, and playing together in our wards and stakes.  I think that goes a lot further than constantly lecturing each other about race.  It was mentioned recently that we have 75 different nationalities represented in our stake.  I have heard several black members bear testimony about how much love they feel as they attend their wards.  I'm sure there are still problems, but I think we've come along way in becoming unified as our Savior has commanded.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, USU78 said:

I see. You get to judge if you really really know, unlike the idiots who don't. And being black trumps everything. 

I don't think you are understanding much of what BD is saying if you think this.

Kind of demonstrating her point about the need to tiptoe in conversations...not because you disagree with her---disagreement must be allowed in truly open conversation, even passionate disagreement, but because you are using slams to do so.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

I hold the unpopular opinion that we are having too many instead of too few conversations about race, at least in the U.S.  I think it's doing more harm than good.

Perhaps it is not the right kind of conversations taking place...

And having a positive view of race relations doesn't necessarily mean it was a realistic view of race relations so I am not sure the drop is a bad thing.

Definitely appropriate to mention how far we have actually come, but we also need to focus on how far we need to go (I agree that service of the individual is very, very important and most likely the key to better relationships in the future for everyone).  It is very helpful to trust to demonstrate understanding, but I am not sure it is necessary though a demonstrated desire to understand is because true and pure love strives to reach the individual and does not treat the individual superficially.

[USU78]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't think you are understanding much of what BD is saying if you think this.

Kind of demonstrating her point about the need to tiptoe in conversations...not because you disagreee with her---disagreement must be allowed in truly open conversation, even passionate disagreement, but because you are using slams to do so.

Perhaps true.  At the moment, however, I'm just fed up with the whole thing, and tired of trotting out my resume on racial issues.  The other day a teammate from college days insisted I take a minute with a friend/roommate of his on a legal issue.  He was pulled over, they found weed in his car on a permitted "plain smell" investigation, and he complained to me that the only reason he was pulled over was because he's black.

My response:  "Conceded.  Waaaaa Waaaa.  Now what?"  It quite got his attention and race politics weren't mentioned again, as they had him dead to rights on dashcam weaving in and out of traffic.  Since I don't do that kind of law, I gave him a referral  ...

The point being:  race politics are a distraction from reality, and Booker T was quite correct:  Those that employ them are hustlers and huxters.

I'm done tiptoeing.

[gopher]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

Perhaps it is not the right kind of conversations taking place...

I agree.  And I didn't mean to imply we shouldn't have conversions about race.  I meant to make the point that these conversations will be more constructive if we first had more positive interactions with one another.

It would also help if everyone could be more consistent and predictable in their racism.   I've witnessed lighter skinned blacks mistreat darker skinned blacks because of their skin color.  I went to school with a Confederate flag-waving redneck with a black girlfriend.  It's just not as simple as white people being racist towards black people.

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, gopher said:

I hold the unpopular opinion that we are having too many instead of too few conversations about race, at least in the U.S.  I think it's doing more harm than good.  This new sobering poll shows in 7 years Americans with a positive opinion of race relations has gone from 66% to 26%   (see https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/negative-views-of-race-relations-reach-all-time-high-cbs-nyt-poll/ar-BBuj98G?li=AA4ZnC).  I don't think our conversations about race are making white racists change.  Instead, it seems we are convincing non-racist white people that they really are unconsciously racist and shaming them with things like "white privilege".  At the same time, if black people are always on the lookout for racist "dog-whistles", it's hard to build any trust in white people.  It's like a "racism contagion" that is fueled by people who have no interest in actually resolving the issues.  I'm no expert so all this is opinion, of course.

From an LDS perspective, I think we can build trust by working, serving, and playing together in our wards and stakes.  I think that goes a lot further than constantly lecturing each other about race.  It was mentioned recently that we have 75 different nationalities represented in our stake.  I have heard several black members bear testimony about how much love they feel as they attend their wards.  I'm sure there are still problems, but I think we've come along way in becoming unified as our Savior has commanded.

There's and article in the NYT's that talked about our views of race: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/14/opinion/a-history-of-white-delusion.html. What was interesting. Was that both blacks and whites can underrepresent the problem of racism or ststemic inequality. In 1962 85% percent of whites said that blacks and whites had equal oppurtunity to have a good education. And so did a majority of blacks...even though that is certifiably false. There was not equal access or oppurtunity in 1962. 

A negative view on race relations doesn't mean that race relations or conversation have led to it to degrade. It more likely could mean that our delusion that a black president doesn't magically fix systemic racism. The article you referred to also noted that it's high was shortly after Obama's inauguration. People were optimistic...and probably a little delusional (white or black or otherwise). The numbers don't need to necessitate that race relations are actually deteriorating but that the problem we have in our nation is simply more apparent. 

This is possibly an even more unpopular view...when the shooting in Dallas happened, I was sad by I was not surprised. Not because I believe that the protesters would turn deadly. But that the mounting frustration of having concerns unmet, problems continue, minimal localized justice/change, large pockets of underprivileged populations feeling isolated and ignored, and feeling again and again that these lives in real numbers and services and behaviors don't matter as much was a powder keg  waiting to explode. All you needed was a crazy person with a gun. And again...we've left that pretty easy for t to happen as well. 

Conversation isn't the problem. Its that a group is speaking and is left feeling unheard and that nothing is changing. I'm a big believer in isomorphism. On a small scale when I see a person in a partnership or a family that feels like they have little voice or the system marginalized their experience, struggle is likely to insue and mental illness can grow. At times, particularly when they finally feel safe to talk, their anger will seep out like puss from a wound. It's not pretty, but it's necessary and can be directed into healthy expression. Likewise for larger society. Change is often surrounded by tumult. Whatever the change and whatever the oppressed class. This problem is seen in so many ways and there are healthy ways to address it. So far, our society hasn't done much in that area to do so. 

In lds circles the problems that are associated with it are disassociation, feeling isolated, higher less active numbers, etc among minority members. In helping struggling minority youth, some of their needs may inadvertently be ignored or their concerns left unmet. Particularly if some of those concerns entail race related issues. This isn't an indictment, just observations from what I've heard from varying minorities. 

With luv, 

BD

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

There's and article in the NYT's that talked about our views of race: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/14/opinion/a-history-of-white-delusion.html. What was interesting. Was that both blacks and whites can underrepresent the problem of racism or ststemic inequality. In 1962 85% percent of whites said that blacks and whites had equal oppurtunity to have a good education. And so did a majority of blacks...even though that is certifiably false. There was not equal access or oppurtunity in 1962. 

A negative view on race relations doesn't mean that race relations or conversation have led to it to degrade. It more likely could mean that our delusion that a black president doesn't magically fix systemic racism. The article you referred to also noted that it's high was shortly after Obama's inauguration. People were optimistic...and probably a little delusional (white or black or otherwise). The numbers don't need to necessitate that race relations are actually deteriorating but that the problem we have in our nation is simply more apparent. 

This is possibly an even more unpopular view...when the shooting in Dallas happened, I was sad by I was not surprised. Not because I believe that the protesters would turn deadly. But that the mounting frustration of having concerns unmet, problems continue, minimal localized justice/change, large pockets of underprivileged populations feeling isolated and ignored, and feeling again and again that these lives in real numbers and services and behaviors don't matter as much was a powder keg  waiting to explode. All you needed was a crazy person with a gun. And again...we've left that pretty easy for t to happen as well. 

Conversation isn't the problem. Its that a group is speaking and is left feeling unheard and that nothing is changing. I'm a big believer in isomorphism. On a small scale when I see a person in a partnership or a family that feels like they have little voice or the system marginalized their experience, struggle is likely to insue and mental illness can grow. At times, particularly when they finally feel safe to talk, their anger will seep out like puss from a wound. It's not pretty, but it's necessary and can be directed into healthy expression. Likewise for larger society. Change is often surrounded by tumult. Whatever the change and whatever the oppressed class. This problem is seen in so many ways and there are healthy ways to address it. So far, our society hasn't done much in that area to do so. 

In lds circles the problems that are associated with it are disassociation, feeling isolated, higher less active numbers, etc among minority members. In helping struggling minority youth, some of their needs may inadvertently be ignored or their concerns left unmet. Particularly if some of those concerns entail race related issues. This isn't an indictment, just observations from what I've heard from varying minorities. 

With luv, 

BD

I actually think a lot of the problem is this is happening on both sides.

I think stats can help you understand a lot of things,  but I have enough knowledge of getting them that I am sceptical of people understanding them well enough to make good choices based on them. And I think sometimes biases are so strong that it makes many people blind. 

So, regarding a solution, I've come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter what the stats say . What matters is that we recognize that many blacks FEEL discriminated against. It matters that we recognize that many whites FEEL they are judged to always be in the wrong.  And then we listen with our heart. It's never going to be solved when it never gets out of debate mode, but maybe when we start actually listening we can see what the other is saying and those that need to change will little by little. 

So I've been trying to figure out what I could do to understand better and I came up worth something that makes me laugh.  I was thinking about how I often hear how blacks are followed in stores. So I thought, "I'd like to follow someone and watch for that. " Immediately,  I realized that wasn't going to work unless I had made arrangements beforehand with the person being followed!

But now that I'm getting to listen I hear the fear BD had regarding her brothers. I've felt fear for my son coming home late at night from work on bike, so I can imagine that the fear would be more if I felt my son might be targeted because of his race.  

[USU78]

9 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

If these are the messages you're getting from me, you are very much not seeing. There is nothing that I've said that would suggest such. And some things that literally contradict it.

One liners are really not helping you. Say something substantial and I'll think to respond.

Until then I think I'll quote you: "You haven't  paid attention at all. Bye"

My position in a nutshell: