Kanye West Was Right. Ces Doesn't Care About Black People.

[Bobbieaware]

I agree- and you did not mention the atrocities of Stalin which were in process at the time.

"Communism" as it was then, is not the watered-down half capitalist half socialist stuff you see in China and Russia today. The system obviously does not work as practiced then. Today we see that kind of thing in North Korea, for the younger readers who have no frame of reference to understand it.

Imagine a much weaker US militarily, facing a "North Korea" like regime that stretched throughout Eastern Europe and China, and then in 1963, extending into Cuba, 90 odd miles off our shores, with nukes to back them up, and the delivery systems in place. We worry about North Korea today, but they are far smaller and lack the real delivery systems to be significantly threatening.

I did not mean to minimize the real threat- just to point out that today that situation is almost unimaginable with what "Communism" has become.

Or imagine ISIS with nukes stretching from Europe to China, with a "civil rights" movement for Muslims in the US at the same time. Scary stuff. That is the way it was perceived to come up with a present day analogy.

I mostly agree. Back in the 50's communism was blatantly obvious in all it's brutal, totalitarian ugliness. But today the forces that would destroy the freedom of the entire world are even more dangerous because, as President Benson testified in the October 1988 session of General Conference, "it is now more highly organized, powerfully promoted and CLEVERLY DISGUISED than ever before." Bottom line? True secret combinations work in the darkness of secrecy; and for that reason most people -- even those who think they are informed -- are left blissfully oblivious to the increasing encroachments and deadly machinations of those in league with the 'evil one.'

Edited January 9, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[juliann]

 

Of course, blacks are a very tiny percentage of LDS in America and it's understandable that the Church wouldn't give careful consideration to the message it sends to black America. Yet, if this is ever to change (and I'm not holding my breath), then the Church is going to need to give some consideration to how welcoming it is to black Americans. At present, it says, "Come on in and enjoy some of this Restored Gospel. However, before you do, I need you to give up your cultural traditions (e.g., hand-clapping, call and response, good music, etc.) and sit down here for some good teachings from a man opposed to you living in this ward. Enjoy!"

 There does need to be improvement. And I think it has to start with us realizing what racism is and how it manifests itself. For example, trying to distinguish between attacks on communism and blacks isn't helpful. I well remember the time when we knew that ETB would eventually be prophet. The John Birch Society was seen as extreme even in SLC.  (It was also a time when being a Democrat was very acceptable.)

 

But I also remember the relief when his well known politicizing stopped when ETB took over. That is what I see as important...and it should be a well recognized statement from the church that it wasn't acceptable from a prophet. So I keep my thoughts there. This was a time when even seeing blacks in SLC was rare. My first encounter was in high school, but I only saw him in the halls. We watched the civil rights demonstrations on TV, horrified. But they were distant and curious. I think the most common statement at the time is that "they had to earn their rights." Even then I kind of went...huh? It wasn't until I moved to CA that I actually got to know anyone and it was only then that I became acutely aware that the priesthood ban was wrong.

 

I think the problem is difficulty Mormons have with just being able to say we were racist just like everybody else at the time and our leaders were no different. So much would go away if we could just do that, in my opinion. Until we do, it is next to impossible to fix it. But given what we have to work with, I can't imagine anything more fitting than you being able to teach a lesson on ETB.  It is an awesome statement.

 

As for those manuals in general, especially for RS, another topic.... 

[stemelbow]

Like I said, avoid focusing on substance at all costs!

 

And I wouldn't want to confuse you with more substance, so by all means, avoid clicking on any of the posts on the Board where I have posted links to anything else I've written.  You'd find yourself scratching your head and wondering how someone who is so obviously racist could have written such things!  (Big deal; the links are only to my blog, which most everyone ignores anyway!)  And, notwithstanding the fact that clicking on any link to my blog I've posted here would enable you to discover my real name, which you could then Google, and you would find some really puzzling stuff that I've written under my real name in highly public fora that would leave you even more confused about how such a racist could have written such things, DON'T DO IT!

 

You're right; it's much simpler and more convenient to dismiss me as a racist!

Did someone call you a racist at some point in your life and you're just way upset about it today? Because no one has called you a racist in this thread, at least I know I did not. We've pointed the insensitivity, the lack of consideration on your part, regarding a post you made.

[why me]

 

I think the problem is difficulty Mormons have with just being able to say we were racist just like everybody else at the time and our leaders were no different. So much would go away if we could just do that, in my opinion. Until we do, it is next to impossible to fix it. But given what we have to work with, I can't imagine anything more fitting than you being able to teach a lesson on ETB.  It is an awesome statement.

 

As for those manuals in general, especially for RS, another topic.... 

However, one may find that the members in europe were not racist as some of the US members were. Different history and culture. For the most part, it is difficult to separate oneself from one's cultural norms. Since France, Britain, Belguim did not have a slave culture as the US did, the treatment of africans was better but not without difficulties too.

 

Being from the Newark New Jersey area, I can say that when a white person discusses the civil rights era with a black person one needs to be careful, as one is when walking on glass. Both races can find it very difficult to understand what it means to be in the other's skin.

 

However, the past is the past. It is the present where people are now living in. Of course, if one is constantly bringing up the past in a negative way, it may be difficult to communicate. One can however, stay in the present and enjoy the opportunity to fix the past by the actions of the present.

 

http://www.good4utah.com/story/d/story/black-lds-members-create-grow-genesis-group/29012/ZnilAksnWUebk4k77BflIw

Edited January 9, 2015 by why me

[strappinglad]

As we pause a moment in this serious discussion, I have a question. Does anyone remember a splinter group that broke off from the JBS known as the Birch John Society? I understand they could be a real pain in the ...

We now return you to the previous program.

[Robert F. Smith]

In the age of Google, there's no excuse to remain pignorant about Martin Luther King's communist associates. Because his name has become so sacrosanct, most will discard the well-established fact of King's communist associations out of hand with a sneer, without doing the research to get the truth.

Whether for good or ill, King was advised by several communists. Now when skeptics on this point become reluctantly convinced they'll usually just say the fact that King had communist aides is irrelevant to his greatness, much in the same way Nelson Mandela's communist connections are usually considered irrelevant to his greatness. It was communism, not racism, that caused.ETB to be wary of the ultimate motives of the leaders of the civil rights movement.

Of course King had communist associates, and so did Nelson Mandela.  However, in the grand scheme of things, did that really matter?  When we were busy trying to defeat Hitler in World War II, making nice with Stalin seemed like a good idea.  We all play that game, and ultimately we have to decide whether communism is worse than Nazism, apartheid worse than communism, Jim Crow worse than communism, etc., picking the lesser of the evils on the way to a better society.  What astonished me was to find that J. Edgar Hoover was a gay racist, who actively persecuted Black activists and gay people.  He touted the anti-communist line, but ignored organized crime.  Talk about hypocrisy!!

 

I have never been able to figure out how Benson understood the Birch Society claim that Ike (the guy who made him Secretary of Agriculture) was a conscious communist conspirator.  True lunacy. The only good thing about the John Birch Society was that John Birch was never a member of it.

[Calm]

However, one may find that the members in europe were not racist as some of the US members were. Different history and culture. For the most part, it is difficult to separate oneself from one's cultural norms. Since France, Britain, Belguim did not have a slave culture as the US did, the treatment of africans was better but not without difficulties too.

Being from the Newark New Jersey area, I can say that when a white person discusses the civil rights era with a black person one needs to be careful, as one is when walking on glass. Both races can find it very difficult to understand what it means to be in the other's skin.

However, the past is the past. It is the present where people are now living in. Of course, if one is constantly bringing up the past in a negative way, it may be difficult to communicate. One can however, stay in the present and enjoy the opportunity to fix the past by the actions of the present.

http://www.good4utah.com/story/d/story/black-lds-members-create-grow-genesis-group/29012/ZnilAksnWUebk4k77BflIw

Russia didn't have a slave culture and I have never seen such racism towards blacks as I saw there. The Nigerians who attended our branch reported they were regularly followed and spat upon and had been beaten up on occassion. The government liked to act like they were all equals for PR purpses giving out scholarships, but the citizens were not in accord. The students were attempting to get to the US, hopefully BYU instead where they knew they would be much safer and mostly welcomed (don't know if any wouldn't, but open to the possibility that some few might be unhappy).

I was also quite shocked by the racism I came across up in Canada. I am not saying it was more rampant than in the US, but in the States those who expressed in my experience racism work at hiding it a lot more than those up in Canada.

I have never been in the deep South so have no clue what common conversational racism is like there.

Edited January 9, 2015 by calmoriah

[why me]

Russia didn't have a slave culture and I have never seen such racism towards blacks as I saw there. The Nigerians who attended our branch reported they were regularly followed and spat upon and had been beaten up on occassion. The government liked to act like they were all equals for PR purpses giving out scholarships, but the citizens were not in accord. The students were attempting to get to the US, hopefully BYU instead where they knew they would be much safer and mostly welcomed (don't know if any wouldn't, but open to the possibility that some few might be unhappy).

 

However, in the Soviet Union, africans were treated rather well as they went to university there. No racism present on the streets. Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow would educate many students from the third world, mainly from africa:

 

http://ipezone.blogspot.fi/2012/09/patrice-lumumba-friendship-university.html

 

But this was during soviet times when brotherhood and sisterhood between people was taught in the schools. I have a wonderful soviet poster exclaiming such sisterhood and brotherhood.

 

Racism will always exist especially within a system where people are subjugated to competitive market forces. Not surprising about racism in russia these days. Nor in canada now. People have become objects and when this happens, racism will fester because people are pitted against the other as in a reality TV show.

 

So,during the welfare state in europe when people had security and work, racism was less. But now it is increasing because of insecurity, individualization, competitive mindsets and a survivalist ideology.

 

Americans can never understand just what life was like in a welfare state that stressed social equality and social justice as used to exist in sweden and the rest of scandinavia. And to a lesser extent in europe. But those days are gone now. And I know for a fact, that many russians miss soviet times because during those times, they had security and peace in their lives.

 

American slavery reduced the african to market forces and private property. It was the ultimate in making the human being an object for profit.

Edited January 9, 2015 by why me

[Calm]

"However, in the Soviet Union, africans were treated rather well as they went to university there. No racism present on the streets. Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow would educate many students from the third world, mainly from africa"

Reminds me of the claim there was no crime in the Soviet Union. And yet all the street level windows had heavy bars across them.

"But this was during soviet times when brotherhood and sisterhood between people was taught in the schools."

And yet these are the people spitting at Nigerians, yelling vulgarities at them for just walking down the street and not caring if a gang jumps them and beats them up.

Somehow I don't think those lessons on brotherhood took that well.

This was just a few years after the Union fell, I don't think it was the change in economic practices that somehow overnight changed a huge segment of that population in racists towards blacks, Jews, and other ethnic groups.

Edited January 9, 2015 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

There does need to be improvement. And I think it has to start with us realizing what racism is and how it manifests itself. For example, trying to distinguish between attacks on communism and blacks isn't helpful. I well remember the time when we knew that ETB would eventually be prophet. The John Birch Society was seen as extreme even in SLC.  (It was also a time when being a Democrat was very acceptable.)

 

But I also remember the relief when his well known politicizing stopped when ETB took over. That is what I see as important...and it should be a well recognized statement from the church that it wasn't acceptable from a prophet. So I keep my thoughts there. This was a time when even seeing blacks in SLC was rare. My first encounter was in high school, but I only saw him in the halls. We watched the civil rights demonstrations on TV, horrified. But they were distant and curious. I think the most common statement at the time is that "they had to earn their rights." Even then I kind of went...huh? It wasn't until I moved to CA that I actually got to know anyone and it was only then that I became acutely aware that the priesthood ban was wrong.

 

I think the problem is difficulty Mormons have with just being able to say we were racist just like everybody else at the time and our leaders were no different. So much would go away if we could just do that, in my opinion. Until we do, it is next to impossible to fix it. But given what we have to work with, I can't imagine anything more fitting than you being able to teach a lesson on ETB.  It is an awesome statement.

 

As for those manuals in general, especially for RS, another topic....

is it a topic that's already been broached here? If so I'd love to read your thoughts.

[Kenngo1969]

Did someone call you a racist at some point in your life and you're just way upset about it today? Because no one has called you a racist in this thread, at least I know I did not. We've pointed the insensitivity, the lack of consideration on your part, regarding a post you made.

You and Brother Smith need to work on your reading comprehension skills, then.

[ERayR]

It seems to be forgotten that ETB spoke from a perspective of having been involved with government at a cabinet level position.  It would certainly give him insight and perspective that the rest of us do not have.  From 50 years downstream and it looks different than it did then.

[Bobbieaware]

Of course King had communist associates, and so did Nelson Mandela. However, in the grand scheme of things, did that really matter? When we were busy trying to defeat Hitler in World War II, making nice with Stalin seemed like a good idea. We all play that game, and ultimately we have to decide whether communism is worse than Nazism, apartheid worse than communism, Jim Crow worse than communism, etc., picking the lesser of the evils on the way to a better society. What astonished me was to find that J. Edgar Hoover was a gay racist, who actively persecuted Black activists and gay people. He touted the anti-communist line, but ignored organized crime. Talk about hypocrisy!!

I have never been able to figure out how Benson understood the Birch Society claim that Ike (the guy who made him Secretary of Agriculture) was a conscious communist conspirator. True lunacy. The only good thing about the John Birch Society was that John Birch was never a member of it.

Funny, but I've just doe a Google search on Hoover being gay and many respected historians say there is no real evidence that Hoover was gay (and they say there is absolutely no evidence at all that he was a cross-dresser). In fact, there's a new film coming out about Hoover and the makers of that film, after discovering there is no real evidence that Hoover was gay, declined to depict or even suggest he was gay in the film.

It's strange, but I wonder why Mormons, who have to constantly put up with salacious innuendo when it comes to Joseph Smith, are so quick to gleefully jump on the "progressive" bandwagon against Hoover and forget that there needs to be proof of misbehavior before concluding that there was misbehavior. I guess what it boils down to is that when fallen man wants to believe something is true, he'll lay hold on any excuse to believe it's true. The Lord says that stiff punishments are in store for those who judge hastily and wrongfully.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[cinepro]

As we pause a moment in this serious discussion, I have a question. Does anyone remember a splinter group that broke off from the JBS known as the Birch John Society? I understand they could be a real pain in the ...

We now return you to the previous program.

 

1962 called.  They want their joke back.

[stemelbow]

You and Brother Smith need to work on your reading comprehension skills, then.

you can say what you like about me, but once you start denigrating my faith's founder's reading comprehension...

sorry joke was feeling a little too predictable...had to cut it off.

edited to add: Oh I just saw Cinepro critiquing jokes and here I was making a lame one setting myself up. ah well i'm leaving it.

Edited January 9, 2015 by stemelbow

[Bobbieaware]

Of course King had communist associates, and so did Nelson Mandela. However, in the grand scheme of things, did that really matter? When we were busy trying to defeat Hitler in World War II, making nice with Stalin seemed like a good idea. We all play that game, and ultimately we have to decide whether communism is worse than Nazism, apartheid worse than communism, Jim Crow worse than communism, etc., picking the lesser of the evils on the way to a better society. What astonished me was to find that J. Edgar Hoover was a gay racist, who actively persecuted Black activists and gay people. He touted the anti-communist line, but ignored organized crime. Talk about hypocrisy!!

I have never been able to figure out how Benson understood the Birch Society claim that Ike (the guy who made him Secretary of Agriculture) was a conscious communist conspirator. True lunacy. The only good thing about the John Birch Society was that John Birch was never a member of it.

It's challenging coming to the conclusion that Nazism was worse the Communism when it's widely acknowledged that the Communists murdered many more millions of innocents than the Nazis. My opinion is that they are equal evils.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[ERayR]

Funny, but I've just doe a Google search on Hoover being gay and many respected historians say there is no real evidence that Hoover was gay (and they say there is absolutely no evidence at all that he was a cross-dresser). In fact, there's a new film coming out about Hoover and the makers of that film, after discovering there is no real evidence that Hoover was gay, declined to depict or even suggest he was gay in the film.

It's strange, but I wonder why Mormons, who have to constantly put up with salacious innuendo when it comes to Joseph Smith, are so quick to gleefully jump on the "progressive" bandwagon against Hoover and forget that there needs to be proof of misbehavior before concluding that there was misbehavior. I guess what it boils down to is that when fallen man wants to believe something is true, he'll lay hold on any excuse to believe it's true. The Lord says that stiff punishments are in store for those who judge hastily and wrongfully.

 

Communist and others organized some very effective smear campaigns against individuals and organizations.  Two of their top targets were J. Edger Hoover and the JBS.  

[ERayR]

It's challenging coming to the conclusion that Nazism was worse the Communism when it's widely acknowledged that the Communists murdered many more millions of innocents than the Nazis. My opinion is that they are equal evils.

 

At that level how to catagorize one as being greater than the other.  It is still going on but they have just gotten better at disguising it.

[The Nehor]

Funny, but I've just doe a Google search on Hoover being gay and many respected historians say there is no real evidence that Hoover was gay (and they say there is absolutely no evidence at all that he was a cross-dresser). In fact, there's a new film coming out about Hoover and the makers of that film, after discovering there is no real evidence that Hoover was gay, declined to depict or even suggest he was gay in the film.

It's strange, but I wonder why Mormons, who have to constantly put up with salacious innuendo when it comes to Joseph Smith, are so quick to gleefully jump on the "progressive" bandwagon against Hoover and forget that there needs to be proof of misbehavior before concluding that there was misbehavior. I guess what it boils down to is that when fallen man wants to believe something is true, he'll lay hold on any excuse to believe it's true. The Lord says that stiff punishments are in store for those who judge hastily and wrongfully.

Okay fine, I will stick with calling him a powermad little bigot intent of garnering political power for his little quasi military organization. Does that make it better?

[ERayR]

Okay fine, I will stick with calling him a powermad little bigot intent of garnering political power for his little quasi military organization. Does that make it better?

 

Nope.

[The Nehor]

Nope.

p

How about he was a reptilian from Alpha Centauri working with the Freemasons and the Rosicrucians to weaken the planet for an imminent invasion?

[The Nehor]

I mostly agree. Back in the 50's communism was blatantly obvious in all it's brutal, totalitarian ugliness. But today the forces that would destroy the freedom of the entire world are even more dangerous because, as President Benson testified in the October 1988 session of General Conference, "it is now more highly organized, powerfully promoted and CLEVERLY DISGUISED than ever before." Bottom line? True secret combinations work in the darkness of secrecy; and for that reason most people -- even those who think they are informed -- are left blissfully oblivious to the increasing encroachments and deadly machinations of those in league with the 'evil one.'

I wish satanic forces were that interesting.

[ERayR]

p

How about he was a reptilian from Alpha Centauri working with the Freemasons and the Rosicrucians to weaken the planet for an imminent invasion?

 

Actually I like the one about him working with the reptilians in the basement of the Salt Lake Temple.     

[ERayR]

I wish satanic forces were that interesting.

 

Blissful ignorance does have its advantages.

[Kenngo1969]

you can say what you like about me, but once you start denigrating my faith's founder's reading comprehension...

sorry joke was feeling a little too predictable...had to cut it off.

edited to add: Oh I just saw Cinepro critiquing jokes and here I was making a lame one setting myself up. ah well i'm leaving it.

I was referring to the Brother Smith who gave you a rep point.