Ordain Beards

[The Nehor]

Are we really putting the no-beard policy of the honor code up as revelation from God that only God can change?

I see absolutely nothing wrong with calling attention to a policy so policy makers might take another look at it.

This is BEARDS! Not the Priesthood of God.

I was arguing against people comparing it to Joseph Smith's experience which is incredibly ridiculous. Some people in this thread have likened this to a spiritual quest. That is insane.

If people want to change it without the crusade for God mentality are just insipid. It is a lame hill to fight over. There are so many causes in the world worth fighting for that to fight over this seems like a waste of our short mortal lives. If you do not like the policy do not go to the school.

And yes, the brethren could change this policy without needing some kind of grand revelation but it is their call and in the order of the church policy comes from the top down and not from campaigning from the bottom. We have more important things to do then steadying the ark or even petitioning that the ark seems wobbly.

[mormonnewb]

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a democracy. We don't get to advocate to change the status quo. If the Lord wants something to change in  His kingdom he will reveal it to the people He has out in charge and given authority and responsibility to. Not to a stupid kid at BYU. [emphasis added]

 

Wow!  The kid is now STUPID?

 

If an apostate were to call one of our beloved leaders stupid, then all heck would break loose on this board.  Yet, it seems perfectly acceptable for a "true saint" to hurl invectives at one of our precious young people.  To my mind, this is a strange view of what it is to be a follower of CHRIST.

 

Because, in the NT, Christ only uses harsh language when addressing church LEADERS.  He calls the leading Jewish officials "fools" and "vipers."  He even says to his beloved Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan."  Yet, I can't think of a single time when he used such language to rebuke women, children or even sinners.  Perhaps, Christ actually meant it when He said, "To whom much is given, much is required."

 

But hey, what would I know?  I'm not even a bishop in my ward, so I'm probably mentally retarded by lvjd66 standards.

[The Nehor]

Wow!  The kid is now STUPID?

 

If an apostate were to call one of our beloved leaders stupid, then all heck would break loose on this board.  Yet, it seems perfectly acceptable for a "true saint" to hurl invectives at one of our precious young people.  To my mind, this is a strange view of what it is to be a follower of CHRIST.

 

Because, in the NT, Christ only uses harsh language when addressing church LEADERS.  He calls the leading Jewish officials "fools" and "vipers."  He even says to his beloved Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan."  Yet, I can't think of a single time when he used such language to rebuke women, children or even sinners.  Perhaps, Christ actually meant it when He said, "To whom much is given, much is required."

 

But hey, what would I know?  I'm not even a bishop in my ward, so I'm probably mentally retarded by lvjd66 standards.

Actually the Savior reserved insults for those who sinned without remorse. I find it funny that you say the Savior never rebuked sinners. Are you arguing that the leaders he rebuked were not sinners? The Savior seems to have been severe with sin to a degree almost intolerable to us while showing mercy to anyone who sought it. I have felt the wrath of God in my time and it always came when I was self-assuredly going the wrong way and ignoring or defying God.

And yes, the kid is stupid. Most kids are. Actually most people in general are. I have fought God over much more petty things myself. He is fighting a pointless battle for a pointless cause. He will hopefully get better some day. I hope I one day stop being stupid and cut it out myself.

[mormonnewb]

I was arguing against people comparing it to Joseph Smith's experience which is incredibly ridiculous. Some people in this thread have likened this to a spiritual quest. That is insane.

If people want to change it without the crusade for God mentality are just insipid. It is a lame hill to fight over. There are so many causes in the world worth fighting for that to fight over this seems like a waste of our short mortal lives. If you do not like the policy do not go to the school.

And yes, the brethren could change this policy without needing some kind of grand revelation but it is their call and in the order of the church policy comes from the top down and not from campaigning from the bottom. We have more important things to do then steadying the ark or even petitioning that the ark seems wobbly.

 

So whether one can wear a beard is not important enough to concern oneself with?  And, say, ordaining women to the priesthood is too  important for a rank and file member to concern himself with?  Hmmm.  I guess the lesson to be learned after four years of BYU is to shut up, pray and obey.  Don't we already teach each Sunday ... and for free?

 

Seriously, if our young people aren't encouraged to engaged in CRITICAL THOUGHT at even BYU, then at what point are they ever supposed to think for themsel ... never mind.

[The Nehor]

So whether one can wear a beard is not important enough to concern oneself with?  And, say, ordaining women to the priesthood is too  important for a rank and file member to concern himself with?

Yeah, it is pretty unimportant especially considering the people arguing against it voluntarily agreed not to. It is not like there is a ton of coercion. There is no shortage of other schools to go to.

Ordaining women is not too important for members to concern themselves with. They can be as concerned as they wish. It is important that they not imagine themselves so self-important that they imagine their opinion on the subject matters to God except as it leads them to follow or reject Him.

Hmmm.  I guess the lesson to be learned after four years of BYU is to shut up, pray and obey.  Don't we already teach each Sunday ... and for free?

 

Seriously, if our young people aren't encouraged to engaged in CRITICAL THOUGHT at even BYU, then at what point are they ever supposed to think for themsel ... never mind.

There is a lot of need for critical thought in the gospel. Understanding how to perfect yourself, winnowing out your sins, balancing your obligations to God, man, and family, deciding how best to aid others, etc. Why is it that critical thought only counts to so many when it involves defying Church leaders? We have so much to do in this life. Do people fixate on things they cannot change out of some weird form of pride where they cannot imagine their opinion being irrelevant or is it a form of laziness because the other stuff is actually hard and requires real thought, humility, and effort and fruitless complaining is easy?

I think many people would get more out of sacrament meeting if they shut up, prayed, and obeyed. At least two out of the three are vital to exaltation. I am not sure why you would suggest via tone that they are negative character traits. The whiny students at BYU should have shown their independence and critical thinking skills earlier and not gone if their beard-having is so precious to them. Is this because they couldn't defy mommy and daddy and so spinelessly went to BYU because they wanted him to but can show some insipid defiance against leaders who don't pay their tuition and they do not actually have to face?

[Storm Rider]

So whether one can wear a beard is not important enough to concern oneself with?  And, say, ordaining women to the priesthood is too  important for a rank and file member to concern himself with?  Hmmm.  I guess the lesson to be learned after four years of BYU is to shut up, pray and obey.  Don't we already teach each Sunday ... and for free?

 

Seriously, if our young people aren't encouraged to engaged in CRITICAL THOUGHT at even BYU, then at what point are they ever supposed to think for themsel ... never mind.

 

You like to ride that high horse pretty often.

 

It is probably worthwhile to look at reality:

1. First, BYU is not the Church and not the sum total of the youth of the Church.
2. BYU is a private university with specific agreements made between student and school if one CHOOSES to attend.  
3. No one is forced to attend BYU.
4. What is of most value to teach our youth in this mortal life?  Each of us gets to decide that question for our own children.  Some will choose the merits of a strictly secular world view.  Others will teach something different.  You don't get to tell me what to teach my children at home and I don't get to tell you what you think is most important.
5. If some student wants to ask BYU to reconsider the parameters of the dress code, what is the issue.  Ask.
6. If a student wants to force their will upon BYU's administration through repeated protests and appealing to the media, then that student will be responsible for the consequences of such an action. 

Just to be clear here; I don't have a problem wearing a beard. I attended BYU for a year and then transferred to the U.  I have worn a beard the majority of my adult life.  I did not wear a beard at BYU because I agreed not to do so.  Do you see the operative principle involved?  You keep your word.  Is honesty of any value to teach a child?

Edited September 28, 2014 by Storm Rider

[why me]

So whether one can wear a beard is not important enough to concern oneself with?  And, say, ordaining women to the priesthood is too  important for a rank and file member to concern himself with?  Hmmm.  I guess the lesson to be learned after four years of BYU is to shut up, pray and obey.  Don't we already teach each Sunday ... and for free?

 

Seriously, if our young people aren't encouraged to engaged in CRITICAL THOUGHT at even BYU, then at what point are they ever supposed to think for themsel ... never mind.

I am afraid protesting about wearing a beard is not exactly critical thought. Critical thinking does not apply to this. However, I do think that BYU should allow beards, mini-skirts, short shorts, and young women should be allowed to go braless and young men can hunk around the school. Why not? The Y is only a religious school that attempts to teach our young people standards to live by. But at the end of the day, it just may be a losing battle. So, why not? Join the world before it leaves you behind.

 

But then again, it just may be critical thought to think ourselves away from the world and stand by the standards.

[Calm]

And yes, the kid is stupid. Most kids are. Actually most people in general are. I have fought God over much more petty things myself. He is fighting a pointless battle for a pointless cause. He will hopefully get better some day. I hope I one day stop being stupid and cut it out myself.

Almost all the mostly intelligent and wise adults I know these days see their younger selves as rather stupid kids…for not taking advantage of opportunities, being too judgmental, not focusing on the important things, wasting much time, money and effort on stuff that means nothing to them now.

 

Even the most even headed kid I know goes into stupid mode every now and again.  I don't know of anyone who completely grows out of that, though hopefully the episodes grow fewer and fewer over the years.

 

I suspect I would be very comfortable at calling pretty much any "beloved leader" when they were in their youth a stupid kid.  I know I was.  I know my husband was.  I've heard stories of stupidity from most friends with a few marveling they managed to survive intact.  Very few kids have the necessary experience to drive out the stupid and smugness and the irrational sense of invulnerability that exists in even very insecure kids from what I've seen.  It is when you begin to realize your choices have great effects on your own lives and the lives of others and take responsibility for those choices stupidity starts deflating.

 

Doesn't the science demonstrate that the brain isn't fully developed until 25ish and as such even in college there may be some mature ways of thinking young adult brains just haven't developed yet.

Edited September 27, 2014 by calmoriah

[mormonnewb]

I am afraid protesting about wearing a beard is not exactly critical thought. Critical thinking does not apply to this. However, I do think that BYU should allow beards, mini-skirts, short shorts, and young women should be allowed to go braless and young men can hunk around the school. Why not? The Y is only a religious school that attempts to teach our young people standards to live by. But at the end of the day, it just may be a losing battle. So, why not? Join the world before it leaves you behind.

But then again, it just may be critical thought to think ourselves away from the world and stand by the standards.

And perhaps, this young man has begun to THINK that the important "standards to live by" don't entail merely physical appearance. During the 60s, BYU students were clean, neat and almost completely absent from the civil rights movement. Is that the loss of "virtue" that you seem to be bemoaning?

And no, I'm not saying that we can only be virtuous by looking like gypsies. I'm simply applauding this man for having the freedom of thought to ask what virtue he gains through the FASHION CHOICE of shaving. I'm sure that we'll successfully beat that spirit out of him during his mission, but it's a wondrous sight to behold while it lasts.

Edited September 27, 2014 by mormonnewb

[katherine the great]

I am afraid protesting about wearing a beard is not exactly critical thought. Critical thinking does not apply to this. 

Huh?  The young man is actively evaluating and applying information he gained through observation, reflection and reasoning.  The way he is applying it may be distasteful to many, but if this isn't critical thinking I don't know what is.

[The Nehor]

And perhaps, this young man has begun to THINK that the important "standards to live by" don't entail merely physical appearance. During the 60s, BYU students were clean, neat and almost completely absent from the civil rights movement. Is that the loss of "virtue" that you seem to be bemoaning?

And no, I'm not saying that we can only be virtuous by looking like gypsies. I'm simply applauding this man for having the freedom of thought to ask what virtue he gains through the FASHION CHOICE of shaving. I'm sure that we'll successfully beat that spirit out of him during his mission, but it's a wondrous sight to behold while it lasts.

Again you compare the civil rights movement to this silly campaign. I still think that is insulting. One was a campaign to give what amounted to second-class citizens equal rights and one is about a voluntarily entered into fashion rule. How are they at all comparable?

If by wondrous sight you mean "pointless" and by freedom of thought you mean "infantile obcious reaoning" then I entirely agree.

[why me]

Huh?  The young man is actively evaluating and applying information he gained through observation, reflection and reasoning.  The way he is applying it may be distasteful to many, but if this isn't critical thinking I don't know what is.

Actually, the young man could have woken up one day and said: I think I will grow a beard and see what happens.

 

Not much critical thinking there. A critical thinking person would reflect on the reasons for such a law, make a careful judgement of those reasons and then reflect on the necessity of wearing a beard to break the code and then use their imagination to see what would happen to the institution if there were no dress code, and act accordingly.

 

Or a person could just say hey, I would like some pubicity and so let me grow a bread and contact the media for my 19 minutes of fame.

[why me]

And perhaps, this young man has begun to THINK that the important "standards to live by" don't entail merely physical appearance. During the 60s, BYU students were clean, neat and almost completely absent from the civil rights movement. Is that the loss of "virtue" that you seem to be bemoaning?

And no, I'm not saying that we can only be virtuous by looking like gypsies. I'm simply applauding this man for having the freedom of thought to ask what virtue he gains through the FASHION CHOICE of shaving. I'm sure that we'll successfully beat that spirit out of him during his mission, but it's a wondrous sight to behold while it lasts.

Again we are back to the civil rights movement. I would prefer to compare the man wearing the beard to caeser chavez and his attempt to organize the fruit pickers. Caesar attempted to organize the fruit pickers and he did a good job. He dared to break boundaries so that he could help his fellow human beings make a decent living. He even risked his life for his cause.

 

So, I applaud the man for attempting to wear the beard at byu. I can see the comparison. Thus, I would like byu women to  burn their bras on campus and for the students to stand up for their rights to have keg parties on campus too. As I said, it shouldn't just stop at beards but for all matters of dress. Maybe the Y should resemble any other campus in America. Why should it be Mormonish? Lets hope that the Y students will begin to critically think this old and odd dress code from the 50s and break through their chains and experience true freedom. The students should not just stop with protesting the beard policy. I hope for more such critical thinking Y students. Yes, this is something I can be proud of. But then maybe I am going a little crazy. However, I think that those people who were active in the civil rights movement or any movement that had to do with human dignity may be a little offended to have it compared to wearing a beard. I know I would be.

Edited September 27, 2014 by why me

[Ahab]

I'm still laughing at "Ordain Beards". Don't know if you made up the title but bravo of you did Mormonweb.

It should be the name of the movement.

Not sure it would help to call it a "movement" but it is what it would take to begin the revolution.

We'd just be seeing men with beards called and ordained into leadership positions, and without being expected to shave them off.

I've known several men with beards who were called into leadership positions who later shaved them off, so that doesn't count.

[thesometimesaint]

It seems that at least one BYU student is gearing up to protest the restriction on beards.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58458452-78/university-beard-pittson-beards.html.csp

I realize that this isn't exactly the Montgomery bus boycott or Occupy Wall Street, but could this be the start of an era when our young people begin to challenge the status quo? Or am I being overly optimistic?

Do you think this protest bike ride will be well-attended?

Will the university do anything in response to it?

Will it spur other protests to change the honor

code?

How is this Kate Kelly's fault?

 

I've had a bushy mustache from before I was a member of the Church. I didn't shave it off for the US Military or BYU. It's my face, and if any one doesn't like it. Then it's their lose. That being said if you choose to belong to any group then you have automatically chosen to follow their rules.

[Brian 2.0]

I've had a bushy mustache from before I was a member of the Church. I didn't shave it off for the US Military or BYU. It's my face, and if any one doesn't like it. Then it's their lose. That being said if you choose to belong to any group then you have automatically chosen to follow their rules.

You have a mustache? Now I see why you're only "sometimes" a saint.

[mormonnewb]

Again you compare the civil rights movement to this silly campaign. I still think that is insulting. One was a campaign to give what amounted to second-class citizens equal rights and one is about a voluntarily entered into fashion rule. How are they at all comparable?

If by wondrous sight you mean "pointless" and by freedom of thought you mean "infantile obcious reaoning" then I entirely agree.

I am NOT comparing OB to the civil rights movement. I was simply pointing out that the clean cut BYU students of the 1960s were not the MOST righteous kids of their day. Sure, they looked neat and tidy and they didn't drink, chew or go with girls that do. Yet, I'm reminded of Matthew 23:23:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

Am I the only one who sees the parallel?

"Woe unto you, modest dressers and clean shavers. For ye dressed modestly and obeyed the Word of Wisdom, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, sacrificing for the equality and dignity of your fellow brothers and sisters; these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

And for the record, I have no problem with the clean shaven requirement, but I'm happy to see it go if it's replaced by a mindset of critical thinking in which someone might one day say, "Are we really teaching our kids the weightier matters of the law?" In many ways, I think the jury is still out on that question.

[ksfisher]

I am NOT comparing OB to the civil rights movement. I was simply pointing out that the clean cut BYU students of the 1960s were not the MOST righteous kids of their day. Sure, they looked neat and tidy and they didn't drink, chew or go with girls that do. Yet, I'm reminded of Matthew 23:23:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

Am I the only one who sees the parallel?

"Woe unto you, modest dressers and clean shavers. For ye dressed modestly and obeyed the Word of Wisdom, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, sacrificing for the equality and dignity of your fellow brothers and sisters; these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

And for the record, I have no problem with the clean shaven requirement, but I'm happy to see it go if it's replaced by a mindset of critical thinking in which someone might one day say, "Are we really teaching our kids the weightier matters of the law?" In many ways, I think the jury is still out on that question.

 

Did you know all of the BYU students in the 1960's?  Do you know that they "omitted the weightier matters of the law?"  Do you know what was in their hearts?

 

You seem very quick to judge people that you don't know.

[Avatar4321]

Baby steps, my good man. Baby steps.

In hindsight, Martin Luther's 95 thesis seemed trivial compared to where the Reformation eventually brought us (ie, the Restoration). Yet, we all owe a debt for his "trivial" protestations about, say, indulgences.

So today, beards. Tomorrow, Diet Coke on campus. Baby steps.

diet coke tastes like crap. I'd rather drink battery acid. But if you are at byu and want some all you have to do is go and get some. No one is going to care if you drink one.

[The Nehor]

I am NOT comparing OB to the civil rights movement. I was simply pointing out that the clean cut BYU students of the 1960s were not the MOST righteous kids of their day. Sure, they looked neat and tidy and they didn't drink, chew or go with girls that do. Yet, I'm reminded of Matthew 23:23:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

Am I the only one who sees the parallel?

"Woe unto you, modest dressers and clean shavers. For ye dressed modestly and obeyed the Word of Wisdom, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, sacrificing for the equality and dignity of your fellow brothers and sisters; these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

And for the record, I have no problem with the clean shaven requirement, but I'm happy to see it go if it's replaced by a mindset of critical thinking in which someone might one day say, "Are we really teaching our kids the weightier matters of the law?" In many ways, I think the jury is still out on that question.

But your own quote refutes the conclusion you seem to want others to draw, The Savior said to take care of the weighty and non-weighty matters. Surely that means protesting the non-weighty matters is pointless.

[mormonnewb]

Did you know all of the BYU students in the 1960's?  Do you know that they "omitted the weightier matters of the law?"  Do you know what was in their hearts?

 

You seem very quick to judge people that you don't know.

I'm not judging what was in their hearts. I just haven't come across many historical accounts of BYU students involved in the movement. A few people on this board marched for civil rights, for which I am grateful. But to my knowledge, it wasn't exactly a "mass movement" among the saints.

That being said, in this rare instance, I would LOVE to be wrong. If someone could point me a large gathering of saints who faced down hoses, dogs and angry mobs for the equality of others, it would greatly increase my testimony in the Church. In fact, I'd also greatly appreciate any comments from the Church leaders exhorting the saints to join in the fray.

[Avatar4321]

I am NOT comparing OB to the civil rights movement. I was simply pointing out that the clean cut BYU students of the 1960s were not the MOST righteous kids of their day. Sure, they looked neat and tidy and they didn't drink, chew or go with girls that do. Yet, I'm reminded of Matthew 23:23:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

Am I the only one who sees the parallel?

"Woe unto you, modest dressers and clean shavers. For ye dressed modestly and obeyed the Word of Wisdom, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, sacrificing for the equality and dignity of your fellow brothers and sisters; these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

And for the record, I have no problem with the clean shaven requirement, but I'm happy to see it go if it's replaced by a mindset of critical thinking in which someone might one day say, "Are we really teaching our kids the weightier matters of the law?" In many ways, I think the jury is still out on that question.

you are seriously going to judge an entire generation because of beards? And they are neglecting the weightier matters????

[mormonnewb]

But your own quote refutes the conclusion you seem to want others to draw, The Savior said to take care of the weighty and non-weighty matters. Surely that means protesting the non-weighty matters is pointless.

Jesus didn't say that doing the non-weighty things was POINTLESS (e.g. tithing). He simply said that we should do BOTH. So yes, some other student should pick up the mantel and move to weightier protests, but as I have been urging, "Baby steps. Baby steps."

[mormonnewb]

you are seriously going to judge an entire generation because of beards? And they are neglecting the weightier matters????

No, I am "judging" them on their failure to participate in the civil rights movement (assuming that I'm correct in this assertion, which I hope I'm not).

And to be clear, I'm not condemning those young kids of the 1960s. I truly believe that, had they been urged to join the movement, they would have responded with breath-taking courage. However, I'm really trying to play "nice" these days, so I don't want to be so bold as to proclaim that they were failed by their leaders.

Edited September 27, 2014 by mormonnewb

[The Nehor]

Jesus didn't say that doing the non-weighty things was POINTLESS (e.g. tithing). He simply said that we should do BOTH. So yes, some other student should pick up the mantel and move to weightier protests, but as I have been urging, "Baby steps. Baby steps."

Because the primary method Jesus taught to live the gospel was to protest and reform it into shape.

I suppose if people would start reforming beard concerns we can move on to rewriting the Law of Tithing or replacing revelation with democratic consensus or abolishing the Law of Chastity.