Ordain Beards

[ksfisher]

I'm not judging what was in their hearts. I just haven't come across many historical accounts of BYU students involved in the movement. A few people on this board marched for civil rights, for which I am grateful. But to my knowledge, it wasn't exactly a "mass movement" among the saints.

That being said, in this rare instance, I would LOVE to be wrong. If someone could point me a large gathering of saints who faced down hoses, dogs and angry mobs for the equality of others, it would greatly increase my testimony in the Church. In fact, I'd also greatly appreciate any comments from the Church leaders exhorting the saints to join in the fray.

 

I hope you find what you're looking for in the way that you want to see it.  

 

My impression is that the church teaches us to live the gospel and to teach it to others.  This is what Christ did.  We try to follow his example.  Because the church is made up of imperfect mortals we follow his example imperfectly, but we still try.

 

I realize  that the civil rights movement is very important to you, important in ways that many others cannot understand.  But, it seems to be the lens through which you view the rest of the world.  All of your posts, no matter where they start, seem to end up at the civil rights movement.  

 

The church never going to try and change the world through protest, but by teaching the gospel to the world and helping us live the associated covenants.  

[teddyaware]

I am NOT comparing OB to the civil rights movement. I was simply pointing out that the clean cut BYU students of the 1960s were not the MOST righteous kids of their day. Sure, they looked neat and tidy and they didn't drink, chew or go with girls that do. Yet, I'm reminded of Matthew 23:23:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

Am I the only one who sees the parallel?

"Woe unto you, modest dressers and clean shavers. For ye dressed modestly and obeyed the Word of Wisdom, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, sacrificing for the equality and dignity of your fellow brothers and sisters; these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

And for the record, I have no problem with the clean shaven requirement, but I'm happy to see it go if it's replaced by a mindset of critical thinking in which someone might one day say, "Are we really teaching our kids the weightier matters of the law?" In many ways, I think the jury is still out on that question.

There's more than enough blame to go around when speaking of those in the 1960's who didn't live up to obedience to the weightier matters of the law. LDS Church President David O. McKay famously said "no other success can compensate for failure in the home (in this case we'll say civil rights reform is such a success)." So who is more guilty of failure to live up to the weightier matters of the law? BYU students of the 1960's who didn't participate in civil rights protests? Or the much older -- and presumably much wiser -- civil rights leaders of the 1960's who were unfaithful to their wives and thereby set terrible examples for their children. Which of these is stained with the greater degree of disgrace? Like I said, there is more than enough blame to go around before one considers whether or not to climb aboard the proverbial high horse.

Edited September 27, 2014 by teddyaware

[mormonnewb]

The church never going to try and change the world through protest, but by teaching the gospel to the world and helping us live the associated covenants.

If that is the case then we are not led by modern day PROPHETS, because by definition, prophets PROTEST the status quo of their day. They go into Ninevah and say, "Change your evil ways!" They hold hunger strikes and are thrown into furnaces and lion dens. They MARCH the children of Israel out of Israel.

If I can't hold out hope that our current leaders will ever do any of these things, are they really PROPHETS of God; or simply administrators of ONE of His churches?

[mormonnewb]

There's more than enough blame to go around when speaking of those in the 1960's who didn't live up to obedience to the weightier matters of the law. LDS Church President David O. McKay famously said "no other success can compensate for failure in the home (in this case we'll say civil rights reform is such a success)." So who is more guilty of failure to live up to the weightier matters of the law? BYU students of the 1960's who didn't participate in civil rights protests? Or the much older -- and presumably much wiser -- civil rights leaders of the 1960's who were unfaithful to their wives and thereby set terrible examples for their children. Which of these is stained with the greater degree of disgrace? Like I said, there is more than enough blame to go around before one considers whether or not to climb aboard the proverbial high horse.

.

The difference is that those of us on Team King acknowledge the error of his ways. None of us are claiming that it was right for him to cheat on his wife or that we should all cheat on our wives going forward.

Yet, can the same be said for Team McKay? Have you acknowledged that church leaders should have done differently in the past and resolve to do better in the future? Bueller? Anyone? Bueller?

Edited September 27, 2014 by mormonnewb

[ksfisher]

If that is the case then we are not led by modern day PROPHETS, because by definition, prophets PROTEST the status quo of their day. They go into Ninevah and say, "Change your evil ways!" They hold hunger strikes and are thrown into furnaces and lion dens. They MARCH the children of Israel out of Israel.

If I can't hold out hope that our current leaders will ever do any of these things, are they really PROPHETS of God; or simply administrators of ONE of His churches?

Prophets call the world to repentance. Prophets teach us to live the gospel. Prophets teach us to listen to the still small voice. At times they are called upon to do headline grabbing things, other times they labor for their own bread, with their own hands like King Benjamin did.

Is your perception of what kind of man a prophet should be preventing you from seeing the prophet in the man?

And I believe, by your definition of a prophet, that modern day prophets are callenging the status quo of today by inviting the world to come to Christ. If the world did that it would certainly be a social revolution.

[mormonnewb]

I realize that the civil rights movement is very important to you, important in ways that many others cannot understand. But, it seems to be the lens through which you view the rest of the world. All of your posts, no matter where they start, seem to end up at the civil rights movement.

I'm really trying not to be THAT black guy. But tell me how a thread about the propriety of a protest movement could not result in SOMEONE mentioning the most significant protest movement in American history? It would be like having a conversation about terrorism and not having someone mention 9/11.

[Coreyb]

 

forget BYU, lets get beards back into the quorum!

[Guest]

If you do not want to live the stupid honor code do not go to BYU. If you want to protest find something important to protest about. I have more sympathy for marijuana legalization campaigns. They at least stand for something.

No to mention they all accepted this policy before enrollment, BYU is not a bad place to have a degree from, as it no second rate university. There are so many others schools that have, no such requirements...many located in UTAH, or the State in which they live where you pay less in tuition, not to mention in many of those Sates you ca get more money for grants because they use lottery proceeds that will pay if you remain in State. As to the OP, this has nothing to do with Kate Kelley, as many have complained about this for many years. But on the up side, stay at BYU, do well, get a teaching position and then you can have facial hair.

[why me]

And for the record, I have no problem with the clean shaven requirement, but I'm happy to see it go if it's replaced by a mindset of critical thinking in which someone might one day say, "Are we really teaching our kids the weightier matters of the law?" In many ways, I think the jury is still out on that question.

I still see no critical thinking in the wearing of the beard. All critical thinking is the result in questioning. In this case, the question is: why are beards restricted at the Y. The answer: because their is a code. The next question then is: Why is there a code? The answer is simple: so that the young adults attending the Y will look not stray from the commandments. The third question is: What does this have to do with beards? The answer: technically it doesn't except on those occasions when people have unkept beards. And the fourth question is: if one rule is changed will that affect the dress code? The answer is: yes. Thus, no beards. Beyond this round of questioning I see no critical thinking. If the beard becomes okay, it will need to be okay to wear what one wants to wear and do what one wants to do. The dress code is gone and with it modest dress for the Y students. Thus, we would have some people dressing modestly and others who do not.

 

The new testament also has a dress code. I am sure that the saints during paul's time could have used their critical thinking skills and challenged paul. And some did. But since he was an apostle, most listened to him.

[mormonnewb]

But on the up side, stay at BYU, do well, get a teaching position and then you can have facial hair.

Really? So the school doesn't want to be represented by "hippie" students but instead, prefers to be represented by hippie FACULTY?

[why me]

I'm really trying not to be THAT black guy. But tell me how a thread about the propriety of a protest movement could not result in SOMEONE mentioning the most significant protest movement in American history? It would be like having a conversation about terrorism and not having someone mention 9/11.

The most significant protest movement in american history was the revolutionary war. Sam Adams and Thomas Paine were true revolutionaries who wrote wonderful pamphlets about freedom. The problem is comparing any significant protest movement to the wearing of a beard. The student protest movements of the sixties, for example, the SDS, were also significant. One could also say that the civil war was a protest movement against the north. And then we have the protest movement against the war in vietnam. That was also significant  and some would argue the most significant. I guess that it can be debated what was the most significant. But now we have a person protesting the not being allowed to wear a beard policy. We have come  along way with our critical thinking.

Edited September 27, 2014 by why me

[mormonnewb]

The most significant protest movement in american history was the revolutionary war. Sam Adams and Thomas Paine were true revolutionaries who wrote wonderful pamphlets about freedom. The problem is comparing any significant protest movement to the wearing of a beard. The student protest movements of the sixties, for example, the SDS, were also significant. One could also say that the civil war was a protest movement against the north. And then we have the protest movement against the war in vietnam. That was also significant and some would argue the most significant. But now we have a person protesting the not being allowed to wear a beard policy. We have come along way with our critical thinking.

The American Revolution was not merely a protest movement. It turned into a full-fledged armed revolt. I don't think that anyone at OB is envisioning taking over the Marriott Center with a cache of muskets.

So in comparing apples to apples, the American Revolution is a cantaloupe.

[AndyDnom]

I love President Hinckley.

 

I don't get Hinckley is trying to say here. That he wants less people to matriculate?

[AndyDnom]

Yeah, it is pretty unimportant especially considering the people arguing against it voluntarily agreed not to. It is not like there is a ton of coercion. There is no shortage of other schools to go to.

Ordaining women is not too important for members to concern themselves with. They can be as concerned as they wish. It is important that they not imagine themselves so self-important that they imagine their opinion on the subject matters to God except as it leads them to follow or reject Him.

There is a lot of need for critical thought in the gospel. Understanding how to perfect yourself, winnowing out your sins, balancing your obligations to God, man, and family, deciding how best to aid others, etc. Why is it that critical thought only counts to so many when it involves defying Church leaders? We have so much to do in this life. Do people fixate on things they cannot change out of some weird form of pride where they cannot imagine their opinion being irrelevant or is it a form of laziness because the other stuff is actually hard and requires real thought, humility, and effort and fruitless complaining is easy?

I think many people would get more out of sacrament meeting if they shut up, prayed, and obeyed. At least two out of the three are vital to exaltation. I am not sure why you would suggest via tone that they are negative character traits. The whiny students at BYU should have shown their independence and critical thinking skills earlier and not gone if their beard-having is so precious to them. Is this because they couldn't defy mommy and daddy and so spinelessly went to BYU because they wanted him to but can show some insipid defiance against leaders who don't pay their tuition and they do not actually have to face?

 

You support NCMO's... but the prophets have said that they are a sin. So who is the spineless defiant one now?

 

[AndyDnom]

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a democracy. We don't get to advocate to change the status quo. If the Lord wants something to change in  His kingdom he will reveal it to the people He has out in charge and given authority and responsibility to. Not to a stupid kid at BYU. That is how he works in all days and at all times: through his chosen, to whom He has given authority. That has always been the case. He is a God of Order. Right now we live in a time when He has MEN on Earth who have such authority to receive any necessary revelation to change the order and workings of the Kingdom. You don't have to like it, but that is the case.

 

Next topic, please. If people want to change the status quo in ANY other organization, go for it. But the Church is not any other organization. It is not a government, club, social organization or frat. You or me have no say (LITERALLY NO SAY) in how it works. Nor should we.

 

What about common consent? that sounds like a democracy to me. Sustaining votes are taken.. that sounds like a democracy.

 

[Rain]

If that is the case then we are not led by modern day PROPHETS, because by definition, prophets PROTEST the status quo of their day. They go into Ninevah and say, "Change your evil ways!" They hold hunger strikes and are thrown into furnaces and lion dens. They MARCH the children of Israel out of Israel.

If I can't hold out hope that our current leaders will ever do any of these things, are they really PROPHETS of God; or simply administrators of ONE of His churches?

Please forgive my memory. They march the children of Israel out of Israel? Did you mean out of Egypt or are you referring to something else?

[mormonnewb]

Please forgive my memory. They march the children of Israel out of Israel? Did you mean out of Egypt or are you referring to something else?

Oops. You're right. Out of Egypt.

[Guest]

Really? So the school doesn't want to be represented by "hippie" students but instead, prefers to be represented by hippie FACULTY?

Yep.

[The Nehor]

You support NCMO's... but the prophets have said that they are a sin. So who is the spineless defiant one now?

lol. Oh wow.

I forgot about NCMO. NCMO was a parody campaign I ran several years ago to supposedly get myself elected mod here. It has nothing to do with NonCommittal Make Outs. I made the acronym come out to NCMO as a joke. Nice try though.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I still see no critical thinking in the wearing of the beard. All critical thinking is the result in questioning. In this case, the question is: why are beards restricted at the Y. The answer: because their is a code. The next question then is: Why is there a code? The answer is simple: so that the young adults attending the Y will look not stray from the commandments. The third question is: What does this have to do with beards? The answer: technically it doesn't except on those occasions when people have unkept beards. And the fourth question is: if one rule is changed will that affect the dress code? The answer is: yes. Thus, no beards. Beyond this round of questioning I see no critical thinking. If the beard becomes okay, it will need to be okay to wear what one wants to wear and do what one wants to do. The dress code is gone and with it modest dress for the Y students. Thus, we would have some people dressing modestly and others who do not.

 

The new testament also has a dress code. I am sure that the saints during paul's time could have used their critical thinking skills and challenged paul. And some did. But since he was an apostle, most listened to him.

So an "unkempt beard" is "straying from the commandments"?

Now I have seen everything.

[why me]

The American Revolution was not merely a protest movement. It turned into a full-fledged armed revolt. I don't think that anyone at OB is envisioning taking over the Marriott Center with a cache of muskets.

So in comparing apples to apples, the American Revolution is a cantaloupe.

You stated that the civil rights movement was the most significant protest movement in the US. I stated that you were wrong. It was the American Revolution. It all started with a tea party in boston harbor. This was the most significant protest movement in US history. Actually this whole discussion is nonsensical because to compare the wearing of a beard to critical thinking is actually downplaying critical thinking. I would rather that students apply 'critical thinking' to other areas of life. For example, by asking the question: why are there poor?

[why me]

So an "unkempt beard" is "straying from the commandments"?

Now I have seen everything.

I don't know. I was just questioning the policy and trying to come up with an answer. Actually, the old GAs who wore beards did have well styled beards which were fashionable for their time. Men took pride in their beards. I think that some things changed in the 60s with the hippie look or yippie look. My point was simple: change the rule and others will have to follow until there is no dress code at all. And then, the Y will be like any other secular school when it comes to dress. Of course, one can ask what does it really matter? It doesn't. But the Y dress code is part of the university's brand.

[thesometimesaint]

Did you know all of the BYU students in the 1960's?  Do you know that they "omitted the weightier matters of the law?"  Do you know what was in their hearts?

 

You seem very quick to judge people that you don't know.

 

I was there is in the mid-1970's. You could get anything you wanted and somethings your didn't want there as with every other university town.

[Brian 2.0]

My point was simple: change the rule and others will have to follow until there is no dress code at all.

This is about as close as you get to a textbook example of the slippery slope fallacy.

To say that the change in beard policy would inevitably lead to no dress code at all is unfounded.

[Yirgacheffe]

It's there because people now associate beards with hippies, the radical rebels of society back in the 60's, and BYU faculty doesn't want their students to be associated with hippies or radical rebels of society.

 

Most people I know don't associate beards with hippies, hippie is just a word that is in no way connected to anything in our lives today.  The end of the 60's was almost 50 years ago, so a 45 year old person has no personal connection to anything a hippie might have worn or done, hippies seemed to have either disappeared or turned into the old guy down the street.  My guess is there is more of an association of beards with music, country music in particular.