The Theology Of Patriarchy Cannot Be Changed.

[mfbukowski]

OK real life calls.

Edited June 26, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Bart Burk]

Does anyone here really dispute that our Mother-in Heaven isn't equal in power and authority to her husband? 

 

Since Mormons don't know hardly anything about her (or them) it would be hard to prove it one way or the other.

[Senator]

I don't know what that means.  He gave us the means we needed to become like Him.  I don't want to go around in circles with you- I do not understand what you are saying

 

Well, I don't understand what you're meaning either, so you're right this is a waste of time.

 

Sounds like you really don't want a discussion, but for all to admit your view is right.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Senator

[Tacenda]

Does anyone here really dispute that our Mother-in Heaven isn't equal in power and authority to her husband? 

No, she's just quiet like the rest of her female children.

 

Why is it that I feel the need to speak less about the more intelligent things around men at family gatherings because if I do, I might sound manly or macho?  Why do I feel the need to be soft spoken and quiet and sweet around them?  Speaking of my very TBM bro in laws and father in law of course.  I know it's all in my head but this has been part of my being for so long.  Do any women here feel the same, or am I an anomaly?  What is that all about?  Who or what made me feel this way?    

[mfbukowski]

Benevolent sexism and kindness are sometimes hard to distinguish. Unfortunately, I have seen the former too many times, including in the church. Watermelongirl's differentiation is apt.

 

FYI: in case unclear about benevolent sexism

One more from this and then I am outa here

 

So where do we go from here?

“[Change] requires some conversations about when benevolent sexism does feel bad," Swim told The Huffington Post. "Not all women think that it's bad either, so it becomes about creating a cultural awareness of what happens when [women] maintain dependency and [men] do those things that are not necessarily obviously sexist."

This is precisely what I am talking about.  I endorse what is here called "benevolent sexism" though I hate that terminology, which I call "Patriarchy"

 

Not all women think it's bad, but yes we need to know that and understand it or it is not in any way "benevolent".

 

But my central point is that it is not going away and is what defines Mormonism.

[thesometimesaint]

Since Mormons don't know hardly anything about her (or them) it would be hard to prove it one way or the other.

 

She is a God in her own right.

[Bart Burk]

She is a God in her own right.

 

So she can tell Heavenly Father what to do?  Or overrule Him?  Assuming there is such a person, my guess is that Heavenly Mother would only have the power and authority Heavenly Father allows Her to have.

[jkwilliams]

I have already defined patriarch as I see it.

 

It has nothing to do with subordination of anyone.  It has to do with consensus.  I am not going to keep repeating myself to you John- you and I have a long history and I have refused to bicker with you in the past and will continue to refuse to do so.  You set up strawmen to prop up slogans you can throw out as one liners.  In short, discussions with you are a waste of time,

 

Pointing out the implications of your position is not sloganeering or engaging in strawmen. That you can't see that is not my problem.

 

There is nothing in the doctrines of the church or in social evolution that says that women must occupy this "equal but with no authority" position, which most people recognize is not equal. Attitudes are changing, and perhaps eventually the church's practice may change. I don't know. But the idea that there is some kind of consensus about the role of women or that this alleged consensus is the product of millions of years of evolution is, to put it mildly, nonsense.

Edited June 26, 2014 by jkwilliams

[watermelongirl]

One more from this and then I am outa here

 

This is precisely what I am talking about.  I endorse what is here called "benevolent sexism" though I hate that terminology, which I call "Patriarchy"

 

Not all women think it's bad, but yes we need to know that and understand it or it is not in any way "benevolent".

 

But my central point is that it is not going away and is what defines Mormonism.

If I'm understanding you correctly:

 

Benevolent Sexism = Patriarchy = Mormonism

 

Or insert "defines" in place of each equal sign.

 

This I disagree with in so.very.many ways. Not even gonna "splain" it.

[thesometimesaint]

So she can tell Heavenly Father what to do?  Or overrule Him?  Assuming there is such a person, my guess is that Heavenly Mother would only have the power and authority Heavenly Father allows Her to have.

 

Can one God tell another God what to do? Can one God overrule another God? At least not in LDS Theology. While she is not a member of the Godhead. She is equal in power and authority to he husband.

[JLHPROF]

Does anyone here really dispute that our Mother-in Heaven isn't equal in power and authority to her husband? 

 

That's not the issue.  They can be 100% exactly equal in power and in authority, but that doesn't mean both preside.  All 15 Apostles have been ordained to the exact same power and authority, but one has been set apart to preside over the Church as head.

 

If both Father and Mother preside together that leads to only two logical options:

 

1. They NEVER disagree.  They are in such perfect harmony of spirit that they are in fact one unit, making the entire discussion moot.

2. They DO disagree but because they have exactly equal authority and power, neither one can get their way nor override the other.  So no conclusion can be reached.  This makes a mockery of Godhood.

 

Talk about "making reason stare".  And based on the fact that we are commanded to pray to the Father, not the mother and other similar things, it's pretty obvious who presides.

Edited June 26, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Ahab]

I threw up a little when I read that post about keeping mama happy. Let's just say that Brother Bukowski's thoughts would not be well received by my wife and daughters.

Then figure out what would make them happy, or have them splain it to you, and then ask God if he approves of that as the right thing to do.

Our Father is there and available to teach all of us what it takes to be happy, and how to help others to be happy, even how husbands can help to make their wives, and their Mothers, happy.

[Tacenda]

One of the comments on the Radio West show.....

 

"There is an ABSOLUTE subtle disregard for women by the men. I do not think they are aware of it. I became aware of it when I got to know non-mormon men and how much respect they gave me. My opinion and thoughts made them stop and listen, and I was astonished. This experience opened my eyes. I do not experience that around mormon men. Their disregard is subtle, but it is there."

[Senator]

That's not the issue.  They can be 100% exactly equal in power and in authority, but that doesn't mean both preside.  All 15 Apostles have been ordained to the exact same power and authority, but one has been set apart to preside over the Church as head.

 

If both Father and Mother preside together that leads to only two logical options:

 

1. They NEVER disagree.  They are in such perfect harmony of spirit that they are in fact one unit, making the entire discussion moot.

2. They DO disagree but because they have exactly equal authority and power, neither one can get their way nor override the other.  So no conclusion can be reached.  This makes a mockery of Godhood.

 

Talk about "making reason stare".  And based on the fact that we are commanded to pray to the Father, not the mother and other similar things, it's pretty obvious who presides.

 

#1 sounds right to me

[jkwilliams]

Then figure out what would make them happy, or have them splain it to you, and then ask God if he approves of that as the right thing to do.

If I said what he did, I would hope that my wife didn't have a weapon handy. Of course, I would never say something as disrespectful as that to my wife or my daughters.

Our Father is there and available to teach all of us what it takes to be happy, and how to help others to be happy, even how husbands can help to make their wives, and their Mothers, happy.

My wife and I have talked about this over the years (we've been married almost 27 years), and we both agree that not only is it not either one's job to make the other one happy, but it is impossible. My happiness does not depend on what my wife does, and hers does not depend on me. Making someone else responsible for your own happiness is a recipe for disaster.

We serve each other, we work together as a partnership, we grow in love for each other every day. That's how it's supposed to work, and it does beautifully for us.

[JLHPROF]

#1 sounds right to me

 

Then why all the complaining that women are getting shortchanged?  Clearly that is not the case in the end if they end up 100% equal and always agree with their husbands.

[thesometimesaint]

No, she's just quiet like the rest of her female children.

 

Why is it that I feel the need to speak less about the more intelligent things around men at family gatherings because if I do, I might sound manly or macho?  Why do I feel the need to be soft spoken and quiet and sweet around them?  Speaking of my very TBM bro in laws and father in law of course.  I know it's all in my head but this has been part of my being for so long.  Do any women here feel the same, or am I an anomaly?  What is that all about?  Who or what made me feel this way?    

 

Hope you do become just like her after you leave this mortal coil. In the mean time live long and prosper.

 

I think that is more of a cultural affliction than anything inherent in womankind. With my wife we have a standing rule. No yelling unless the house in on fire. Yell and people tune you out. Speak softly and they'll strain to pay attention.

 

I can't speak for any woman. But for myself I consider my wife equal to me in power and authority in our family. Growing up my dad was on TDY for the military quite often. So mom couldn't and wouldn't pull the old "Wait till your father gets home." routine. I inherited that way of looking at the world from her. You do what is necessary at the time it needs being done.

 

I'm the incurable romantic in the family. She is the far more practical of us. IE; She gets to set the price point and I get to set the style. A while ago we needed a new bed. She set the price point and I chose a beautiful Queen Ann style four poster Rice bed. We are both happy.

[jkwilliams]

One of the comments on the Radio West show.....

 

"There is an ABSOLUTE subtle disregard for women by the men. I do not think they are aware of it. I became aware of it when I got to know non-mormon men and how much respect they gave me. My opinion and thoughts made them stop and listen, and I was astonished. This experience opened my eyes. I do not experience that around mormon men. Their disregard is subtle, but it is there."

I had an LDS commenter on my blog say that "the little lady" (referring to Kate Kelly) obviously had problems being around "strong male figures." That's certainly less subtle than what you describe, but I have definitely seen the subtle disregard for women. In my mission there was a definite attitude of superiority toward sister missionaries, which I never understood, as they worked at least as hard as we did and were often more effective. I have had to adjust my own attitudes because without even noticing it, I saw some of the same stuff in my own life. It's probably still there.

[thesometimesaint]

That's not the issue.  They can be 100% exactly equal in power and in authority, but that doesn't mean both preside.  All 15 Apostles have been ordained to the exact same power and authority, but one has been set apart to preside over the Church as head.

 

If both Father and Mother preside together that leads to only two logical options:

 

1. They NEVER disagree.  They are in such perfect harmony of spirit that they are in fact one unit, making the entire discussion moot.

2. They DO disagree but because they have exactly equal authority and power, neither one can get their way nor override the other.  So no conclusion can be reached.  This makes a mockery of Godhood.

 

Talk about "making reason stare".  And based on the fact that we are commanded to pray to the Father, not the mother and other similar things, it's pretty obvious who presides.

 

It is number 1.

[Ahab]

That's your projection and prejudice, and not the way it is at all. I am a slob and I try to keep her happy. That is not patronizing at all. I need to learn to measure up to her standards. She is teaching me how to be more godlike.

Man this is a messed up world.

The towel thing: Instead of just doing it "her" way she wants you to see that as the "best" way to store the towels, because to her "that" way is the "best" way to store the towels. If you could think of a "better" way to store the towels she would probably be open to "that" way of doing it, though. And knowing the way your towels should be put away doesn't mean you're always going to do it that way, automatically, as if it's never going to take any effort on your part to put them away. But you could at least agree on the "best" way to put towels away, regardless of who came up with the idea to begin with.

[Senator]

Then why all the complaining that women are getting shortchanged?  Clearly that is not the case in the end if they end up 100% equal and always agree with their husbands.

 

cuz...we ain't there yet?

[jkwilliams]

The towel thing: Instead of just doing it "her" way she wants you to see that as the "best" way to store the towels, because to her "that" way is the "best" way to store the towels. If you could think of a "better" way to store the towels she would probably be open to "that" way of doing it, though. And knowing the way your towels should be put away doesn't mean you're always going to do it that way, automatically, as if it's never going to take any effort on your part to put them away. But you could at least agree on the "best" way to put towels away, regardless of who came up with the idea to begin with.

 

You sound like someone who isn't married. This just sounds like overthinking things. Marriage is about partnership, and being an equal partner means you both let little things slide and you compromise on bigger issues. Unless you have some weird compulsion to fold towels a certain way, you're best to be flexible and not worry about which way is "best." Every day of a marriage you and your spouse are going to approach things differently, from the way you fold towels to the way you cook to the way you handle your finances and parenting. Having a good marriage isn't about resolving every single difference (how boring would that be?) but in appreciating each other's differences and perspectives and working together. In a good marriage, 1+1=1. Spending all your time trying to keep the other person "happy" sounds to me like 2-1=1. I don't think that's how it's supposed to work.

[mfbukowski]

Pointing out the implications of your position is not sloganeering or engaging in strawmen. That you can't see that is not my problem.

 

There is nothing in the doctrines of the church or in social evolution that says that women must occupy this "equal but with no authority" position, which most people recognize is not equal. Attitudes are changing, and perhaps eventually the church's practice may change. I don't know. But the idea that there is some kind of consensus about the role of women or that this alleged consensus is the product of millions of years of evolution is, to put it mildly, nonsense.

Of course I never said any of this about authority.  Authority in the gospel is servitude but you would not understand that.

[mfbukowski]

If I'm understanding you correctly:

 

Benevolent Sexism = Patriarchy = Mormonism

 

Or insert "defines" in place of each equal sign.

 

This I disagree with in so.very.many ways. Not even gonna "splain" it.

Because you can't.  There is nothing to explain.  You don't like men holding the door open for you, or that God is an exalted Human Male.?  That is demeaning?

[CV75]

Having a good marriage isn't about resolving every single difference

Such as ensuring that both spouses hold priesthood office.

 

 

appreciating each other's differences and perspectives and working together.

Sounds very General Conference-esque to me!

 

 

 In a good marriage, 1+1=1.

No, each 1 realizes he/she is only 1/2 and 1/2 + 1/2 = 1.

 

 

Spending all your time trying to keep the other person "happy" sounds to me like 2-1=1.

It's still 1/2 + 1/2 = 1 and very joyous. Unless your quotation marks around happy is to convey something other than "happy."