The Theology Of Patriarchy Cannot Be Changed.

[ERayR]

I am sorry your family dynamics is flawed.  Have a conversation with your husband and see if the two of you can find a way to educate the family to behave in a more appropriate manner towards the women.

 

Whoops, sorry if that sounds patronizing to you but it is, IMHO, the most logical way to solve that problem.

[Calm]

Several students apparently found it offensive that they have to be taught by a woman.

Bizarre...

[Calm]

I only have this feeling around my in laws who are TBM to the max, in church I'm fine. Maybe I married into the wrong family, I have a lot of hang ups around them. But I love my husband, though it's an ongoing process of standing my ground, and feeling good about myself.

My advice from seeing my mom in the same situation…don't wait for when it is more convenient, you both are retired and have time for each other, etc.  Work on it now because it will be almost impossible to get anyone to change when they get so old comfort becomes a major priority.

[ERayR]

Here is a little poem I came across a few years back that might give a clue or two.

 

From Baxter Black - a cowboy poet.

 

The Cowboy and the Lady

She was tall and seductive, limber and lean
Right off she caught his eye.
She marched with a purpose right up to the door
That he was standin' by

He took off his hat and reached for the knob
And started to open the door
She spun on her heels and glared in his face
And under her breath she swore.

She said, "The last thing I need is a cowboy
Who thinks I'm a frail fraulein
And tries to impress me with sweet talk
With candlelight, roses and wine!"

"All men are alike, I've decided.
You're only after one thing!
All your chivalrous ways don't mean doodly!
There's no way I'm going to swing!"

Then she made him an obscene gesture
And stepped back to give him the space
But he let the door slip from his fingers
And it hit'er right square in the face!

'Cause his mother had gave him instructions
'Bout women, and others advise:
To treat each one like a lady,
Until she can prove otherwise!



 

[juliann]

Why would you put something like that up, ERay? Do you think it is funny? Do you think it appropriate to talk about women using obscene gestures and men doing damage to someone's face appropriate in this discussion?  Do you think it represents women?  Do you think women have to prove they are ladies or that a particular behavior absolves men from being gentlemen? Do you think wanting to be treated respectfully equates to rejecting small courtesies?  Or do you think it just might be a real slap down and mockery of those women who are trying their best to explain why this is offensive?

[juliann]

I think there is a huge difference between the men who support the gospel principle of Patriarchy presiding and the men who don't understand the eternal importance of the female side of exaltation.  But unfortunately men who accept patriarchy and role differentiation are tarred with the same brush as men who seek to subjugate or diminish a woman's role in the gospel.

No they aren't.  How many of us are right here supporting the church?  We truly seem to be invisible. That belief is what creates misogynistic "poems" such as the above, however.

[why me]

The ridicule and abuse of women during the "women's lib" era was appalling.  For those who didn't experience this era, watching Mad Men is a must. Even though over dramatized and about upper class, it is an often dead on representation of the life of a woman in business or as a homemaker.

Interestingly, many women in europe hated the term feminism. And one reason for that was the american women's lib movement and american feminism. It seemed too anti-male for many european women. Many would confirm that they were for equality but they did not want to be associated with term feminism and so, in one of my classes when I was guest lecturing, I asked for students to raise their hands if they were feminists and not one hand was raised. For the young women, they said that if they raised their hand, some class members would believe that they hated men.

 

And this society was considered to be one of the most equal societies between the sexes in the world. And even today, feminism is not a very respected word in europe. What this meant for OW because they were claiming to be feminist would have been a turnoff for many lds women in europe. These women may be for equality between the sexes but they would not want to be labelled a feminist.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-european-magazine/feminism-is-an-incomplete_b_1614784.html

 

Of course, americans do not seem to understand the world very much. By using the word feminist for their organization OW basically alienated many european lds saints.

[ELF1024]

No they aren't.  How many of us are right here supporting the church?  We truly seem to be invisible. That belief is what creates misogynistic "poems" such as the above, however.

 

Misogynistic? Nevermind, I'll just "check my privilege" and excuse myself from the conversation.

Edited June 26, 2014 by ELF1024

[Stone holm]

Not sure where ERay was going with that, but it is something frequently aimed at feminists that they are claiming equality with special privileges.  In the end, there is some truth to where he might be headed, even if somewhat crudely put -- that some feel that the "chivalry" is in some sense demeaning of women.  Its probably difficult to satisfy everyone, its kind of either being on the bus or off the bus -- either we are ladies and gentlemen to everybody regardless of gender, or we give certain benefits to a certain gender in exchange for withholding other privileges.  Its a confusing world we are transitioning into.

[Ahab]

Why would you put something like that up, ERay? Do you think it is funny? Do you think it appropriate to talk about women using obscene gestures and men doing damage to someone's face appropriate in this discussion? Do you think it represents women? Do you think women have to prove they are ladies or that a particular behavior absolves men from being gentlemen? Do you think wanting to be treated respectfully equates to rejecting small courtesies? Or do you think it just might be a real slap down and mockery of those women who are trying their best to explain why this is offensive?

Interesting how you're finding fault with the man for letting go of the door after she said he didn't want his courtesy. It hit her in the face because she didn't dtop it from moving in its natural course, or at least that's the way it seems to me. She didn't have to sleep with the guy for holding the door and despite what she said he may have not even been interested in her in that way.

[juliann]

Not sure where ERay was going with that, but it is something frequently aimed at feminists that they are claiming equality with special privileges.  

 

Yes, that is just a disguised way of saying that anything bringing women's opportunities closer to men's is a special privilege rather than a matter of parity  

[juliann]

Interesting how you're finding fault with the man for letting go of the door after she said he didn't want his courtesy. It hit her in the face because she didn't dtop it from moving in its natural course, or at least that's the way it seems to me. She didn't have to sleep with the guy for holding the door and despite what she said he may have not even been interested in her in that way.

 That you would immediately add sex to an offensive poem only demonstrates what women are up against.

[ELF1024]

 That you would immediately add sex to an offensive poem only demonstrates what women are up against.

 

Pardon me... but the sex... it was already there...

 

 

"All men are alike, I've decided.

You're only after one thing!

All your chivalrous ways don't mean doodly!

There's no way I'm going to swing!"

 

Sorry, you must have missed it...

 

Then again, I could be totally wrong, she must have been meaning that the "one thing" that men were after was opening the door for her...

Edited June 26, 2014 by ELF1024

[why me]

And then we have this when feminism goes wrong:

 

http://www.dawn.com/news/575185/feminism-war-and-silence-fuel-domestic-abuse-in-finland

 

And  iceland is considered to be the most feminist friendly country in the world

 

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/mar/25/iceland-most-feminist-country

 

and yet:

 

http://www.norden.org/en/news-and-events/news/major-problem-of-male-violence-against-women-in-the-west-nordic-region

 

http://www.humanrightseurope.org/2012/02/hammarberg-highlights-enduring-problem-of-icelands-domestic-violence/

 

There is a problem with feminism as an ideology and the violent reaction of men. How to solve this problem? I don't trust equality laws imposed by human beings to bring about a more equal understanding of gender rights. It isn't working out very well. So, I would prefer to trust god in all this and not the human being when it comes to what is best for women and men.

 

I would prefer peace between women and men in the church and not a 'feminism' that plagues europe where domestic violence between both sexes is rampant.

Edited June 26, 2014 by why me

[ERayR]

Why would you put something like that up, ERay? Do you think it is funny? Do you think it appropriate to talk about women using obscene gestures and men doing damage to someone's face appropriate in this discussion?  Do you think it represents women?  Do you think women have to prove they are ladies or that a particular behavior absolves men from being gentlemen? Do you think wanting to be treated respectfully equates to rejecting small courtesies?  Or do you think it just might be a real slap down and mockery of those women who are trying their best to explain why this is offensive?

 

Because I think there are too many figurative obscene gestures thrown around.  Equating sexism with being polite toward women or to a man acquiescing to his wife's wishes because it makes her happy.  I think it a offensive to be accused of sexism because I told my wife that how the towels were organized didn't matter to me and if she wanted a new towel cabinet then it was fine with me.  Before you complain about being offended you might look at the beam in your own eye.

Edited June 26, 2014 by ERayR

[juliann]

 

 

There is a problem with feminism as an ideology and the violent reaction of men. How to solve this problem? I don't trust equality laws imposed by human beings to bring about a more equal understanding of gender rights. It isn't working out very well. So, I would prefer to trust god in all this and not the human being when it comes to what is best for women and men.

 

I would prefer peace between women and men in the church and not a 'feminism' that plagues europe where domestic violence between both sexes is rampant.

But you just said Europe was the most feminist place in the whole world. Oh, wait...women being equal means violence.  Which means if they continue to stay in their designated place it will be peaceful.  So every women in a shelter...or dead... is a feminist?  

[ERayR]

But you just said Europe was the most feminist place in the whole world. Oh, wait...women being equal means violence.  Which means if they continue to stay in their designated place it will be peaceful.  So every women in a shelter...or dead... is a feminist?  

 

Do you realize how offensive you generalizations are? 

[juliann]

Because I think there are too many figurative obscene gestures thrown around.  Equating sexism with being polite toward women or to a man acquiescing to his wife's wishes because it makes her happy.  I think it a offensive to be accused of sexism because I told my wife that how the towels were organized didn't matter to me and if she wanted a new towel cabinet then it was fine with me.  Before you complain about being offended you might look at the beam in your own eye.

I have no idea what you are talking about, perhaps some previous interaction?  So when you are offended, your natural reaction is to laugh about a woman's face being smashed by a door? I mean, every woman deserves that if they don't act like a "lady," right?  Do you not see a problem here?

[Calm]

 I think it a offensive to be accused of sexism because I told my wife that how the towels were organized didn't matter to me and if she wanted a new towel cabinet then it was fine with me.

And if that was the way it was phrased no one would have had a problem with it.

 

Language matters.  

[ERayR]

I have no idea what you are talking about, perhaps some previous interaction?  So when you are offended, your natural reaction is to laugh about a woman's face being smashed by a door? I mean, every woman deserves that if they don't act like a "lady," right?  Do you not see a problem here?

 

Would you believe me if I answered your question with a no.  The lesson of the poem is to be careful what you ask for because you just might get it , consequences and all.

Edited June 26, 2014 by ERayR

[Zakuska]

I liked the poem but I think Juliann may not have understood the all inclusiveness of this line and missed the whole point of the poem.

 

'Cause his mother had gave him instructions

'Bout women, and others advise:

To treat each one like a lady,

Until she can prove otherwise!

 

We are to treat All humans, both male and female alike, like Lady's and Gentlemen till they prove us wrong.

 

Lets not make each other offenders for a word shall we?

Edited June 26, 2014 by Zakuska

[Calm]

I find the poem offensive because it went straight to the woman being crash as well as violence. Most women who turn down opening doors do so as respectfully as the door being offered, generally saying "no thanks, I can manage that myself".

It makes it seem like "lady" equates to be demure" and one can either be that or a disgusting witch.

And the guy did let the door go without any concern of what was going to happen to it. Meaning he should only worry about harming someone else if they are grateful or respectful? What happened to treating our enemies as we treat our loved ones?

It did say assume she was a lady until proved wrong, not assume she wasn't…but then it allowed him to treat her as if she didn't exist.

She was wrong in the way she treated him, but then to treat her that way reduced him, it didn't prove anything about her.

Add-on: oops, that was supposed to be crass, not crash...My brain needs blood sugar.

Edited June 26, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

 

I liked the poem but I think Juliann may not have understood the all inclusiveness of this line and missed the whole  point of the poem.

 

 

'Bout women, and others advise:

To treat each one like a lady,

Until she can prove otherwise!

 

We are to treat All humans, both male and female alike, like Lady's and Gentlemen till they prove us wrong.

 

Lets not make each other offenders for a word shall we?

 

We are actually supposed to treat everyone like ladies and gentlemen even when they prove us wrong according to the Good Book.

[Ahab]

That you would immediately add sex to an offensive poem only demonstrates what women are up against.

She was the one who brought it up. What did you think she was talking about?

[juliann]

Do you realize how offensive you generalizations are? 

 

Why Me's own link gives this as the solution, that is hardly an indictment of feminists asking for equal rights:

 

He added: “Equal treatment legislation should cover all the relevant grounds of discrimination in all walks of life.”

 

Would you believe me if I answered your question with a no.  The lesson of the poem is to be careful what you ask for because you just might get it , consequences and all.

 

And this is what the gospel teaches us? That we should meet out the treatment people "deserve?"  That violence to women is funny as long as we decide they deserve it?