The Theology Of Patriarchy Cannot Be Changed.

[mfbukowski]

This is a very simple point.

 

Some are against the idea of Patriarchy.

 

That view is essential to Mormonism.  THAT VIEW IS MORMONISM.

 

There really isn't anything more to it.  God is our Father, we have a Mother and we make up their children, literally, as spirit children. As their children, our objective is to "grow up" to be like them.  All of our doctrine is based on that principle.

 

We don't know much about Heavenly Mother, and the Father presides over his family.

 

THAT my friends IS Mormonism

 

How can we possibly do away with that and remain "Mormons"?  Do we want to become Creedal Christians and accept the Trinity?  What is the alternative?

 

I am starting this thread for those who want to explain how it can change and have us keep our essential core beliefs.

Edited June 25, 2014 by mfbukowski

[daz2]

Given that the Church now teaches that men and women are equal partners in marriage--neither one must defer to the other in making decisions but must both freely consent to each decision, I believe that God and His Wife are also equal partners.

[wenglund]

This is a very simple point.

 

Some are against the idea of Patriarchy.

 

That view is essential to Mormonism.  THAT VIEW IS MORMONISM.

 

There really isn't anything more to it.  God is our Father, we have a Mother and we make up their children, literally, as spirit children. As their children, our objective is to "grow up" to be like them.  All of our doctrine is based on that principle.

 

We don't know much about Heavenly Mother, and the Father presides over his family.

 

THAT my friends IS Mormonism

 

How can we possibly do away with that and remain "Mormons"?  Do we want to become Creedal Christians and accept the Trinity?  What is the alternative?

 

I am starting this thread for those who want to explain how it can change and have us keep our essential core beliefs.

 

[Thumbs Up]

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ksfisher]

Given that the Church now teaches that men and women are equal partners in marriage--neither one must defer to the other in making decisions but must both freely consent to each decision, I believe that God and His Wife are also equal partners.

 

Being an equal partner is different than presiding.

[Tsuzuki]

What is the alternative?

There are plenty of alternatives explored in various Western esoteric traditions that we already share core doctrines with. Thelema comes to mind.

[teddyaware]

This is a very simple point.

 

Some are against the idea of Patriarchy.

 

That view is essential to Mormonism.  THAT VIEW IS MORMONISM.

 

There really isn't anything more to it.  God is our Father, we have a Mother and we make up their children, literally, as spirit children. As their children, our objective is to "grow up" to be like them.  All of our doctrine is based on that principle.

 

We don't know much about Heavenly Mother, and the Father presides over his family.

 

THAT my friends IS Mormonism

 

How can we possibly do away with that and remain "Mormons"?  Do we want to become Creedal Christians and accept the Trinity?  What is the alternative?

 

I am starting this thread for those who want to explain how it can change and have us keep our essential core beliefs.

There is scriptural support for your position. Even so, in today's politically correct environment it's troubling knowing there's a chance I'll be igniting a firestorm of controversy by merely quoting the following 3 verses of scripture (reason being there are likely some LDS members on this board who will confidently opine that the Apostle Paul was backward, mistaken, misinformed  and uninspired when he wrote the following words of counsel to the saints in Ephesus):

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. (Ephesians 5)

 

The above is an obvious reference to patriarchal leadership and the Patriarchal Order.

 

Edited June 25, 2014 by teddyaware

[CA Steve]

Didn't our ancestors believe something similar, at one time, about the practice of polygamy here on earth being an indispensable part of what it meant to be LDS?

 

How do we know, that much like giving black people the priesthood, God simply has not been able to convince culturally bound men that His plan of salvation encompasses more than just male dominated priesthood?

 

It is interesting that you should mention how important the idea of the Patriarchy is to Mormonism, in view of the recent passing of  Eldred G. Smith, our 8th presiding patriarch and the fact the the office of the Church Presiding Patriarch no longer seem necessary to fill even though at one time it was considered equal with or even above (by some) to that of the prophet.

 

Our views of the priesthood and of patriarchs has changed over time, as have what is considered integral to being a Mormon.

[ERayR]

Given that the Church now teaches that men and women are equal partners in marriage--neither one must defer to the other in making decisions but must both freely consent to each decision, I believe that God and His Wife are also equal partners.

 

Please explain how that refutes a patriarchy.  Even in an equal partnership there is a managing partner.  The partners reach agreement and the managing partner administer the agreed upon procedures.

Edited June 25, 2014 by ERayR

[Ahab]

This is a very simple point.

Some are against the idea of Patriarchy.

That view is essential to Mormonism. THAT VIEW IS MORMONISM.

There really isn't anything more to it. God is our Father, we have a Mother and we make up their children, literally, as spirit children. As their children, our objective is to "grow up" to be like them. All of our doctrine is based on that principle.

We don't know much about Heavenly Mother, and the Father presides over his family.

THAT my friends IS Mormonism

How can we possibly do away with that and remain "Mormons"? Do we want to become Creedal Christians and accept the Trinity? What is the alternative?

I am starting this thread for those who want to explain how it can change and have us keep our essential core beliefs.

Okay, so let's get into what we mean by Patriarchy, to see if we have the same idea about what that means.

Patriarchy = the idea that the Father in each family has ultimate authority in his own family, which consists of his wife (or wives if he has more than one) and the children he has begotten through his said wife (or wives).

Is that accurate so far? What about the authority that his wife (or wives) has/have? Does the wife have as much authority as her husband, as an equal partner with him, or is she subject to her husband and authoritatively inferior to him?

And what about men who have the same priesthood, like our Father and our Lord. Who gets to tell the other one what they should do with the authority to boss the other around?

I know what I think, but what do you think?

[Zakuska]

What I want to know is where the Theology of Matriarchy disappeared to in the Church. Its all over the Old Testament and much of the New.  It was there in Joseph Smiths time, but every since the Women Liberation movement, its virtually absent in the church.

[mfbukowski]

There are plenty of alternatives explored in various Western esoteric traditions that we already share core doctrines with. Thelema comes to mind.

Well that is a suggestion but it is not our tradition.  When I asked for "alternatives" I didn't really mean to suggest that we should adopt Trinitarianism or any other "ism".

 

What I was trying to say is that there IS no alternative that is still "Mormonism".  We are all free to start our own churches, but they would not be the COJCLDS.

 

If one wants to believe/practice Thelema, great, but that's not Mormonism.  I am suggesting that perhaps certain beliefs can be modified and enlarged and re-interpreted, but patriarchy is not one of them if we want to keep the core of what we believe.

[mfbukowski]

Okay, so let's get into what we mean by Patriarchy, to see if we have the same idea about what that means.

Patriarchy = the idea that the Father in each family has ultimate authority in his own family, which consists of his wife (or wives if he has more than one) and the children he has begotten through his said wife (or wives).

Is that accurate so far? What about the authority that his wife (or wives) has/have? Does the wife have as much authority as her husband, as an equal partner with him, or is she subject to her husband and authoritatively inferior to him?

And what about men who have the same priesthood, like our Father and our Lord. Who gets to tell the other one what they should do with the authority to boss the other around?

I know what I think, but what do you think?

Patriarchs don't boss anybody- they serve everybody in love.

 

He who is greatest is the servant of all.  He earns leadership through love and earns respect because of that love.

 

Maybe that is the answer.

 

Maybe we stupid men need to BECOME true patriarchs.

 

We are in trouble with some of the sisters because some of us are not doing that.

Edited June 25, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Thinking]

Being an equal partner is different than presiding.

 

Does the one who presides have the final say?

[mfbukowski]

Given that the Church now teaches that men and women are equal partners in marriage--neither one must defer to the other in making decisions but must both freely consent to each decision, I believe that God and His Wife are also equal partners.

Of course.

 

The church has said that should be the way forever.  Ever read the Family Proclamation?

 

What does that have to do with Patriarchy?

[mfbukowski]

Does the one who presides have the final say?

Yep.

Just like any other organization on God's green earth, to coin a phrase. 

 

But the ideal is mutual agreement after as much discussion as it takes to reach unanimity.  That is what the Apostles do.

Edited June 25, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

What I want to know is where the Theology of Matriarchy disappeared to in the Church. Its all over the Old Testament and much of the New.  It was there in Joseph Smiths time, but every since the Women Liberation movement, its virtually absent in the church.

It should not be.

[Abulafia]

There is scriptural support for your position. Even so, in today's politically correct environment it's troubling knowing there's a chance I'll be igniting a firestorm of controversy by merely quoting the following 3 verses of scripture (reason being there are likely some LDS members on this board who will confidently opine that the Apostle Paul was backward, mistaken, misinformed  and uninspired when he wrote the following words of counsel to the saints in Ephesus):

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. (Ephesians 5)

 

The above is an obvious reference to patriarchal leadership and the Patriarchal Order.

The big problem with quoting Ephesians is that is widely believed to have been written in the 80 to 100 period and is therefore pseudonymous. (Paul was dead). It reflects later theological concerns rather than those of the very earliest communities. Galatians just might be a more authentic lens into Paul's attitude to women.

[Ahab]

Patriarchs don't boss anybody- they serve everybody in love.

He who is greatest is the servant of all. He earns leadership through love and earns respect because of that love.

Maybe that is the answer.

Maybe we stupid men need to BECOME true patriarchs.

We are in trouble with some of the sisters because some of us are not doing that.

Great response and true.

I often joke that as the person with the most authority from God in my family that I get to be the one that gets to do what everybody else wants me to do, or will let me do.

My wife does a lot of things too, but with her bossing me around, albeit usually in a very nice way, I still end up being the one that gives the most service.

And they are giving me their authority/authorization to do it, which I will do as long as I know God also gives me his authority/authorization to do what I do.

[mfbukowski]

Didn't our ancestors believe something similar, at one time, about the practice of polygamy here on earth being an indispensable part of what it meant to be LDS?

 

How do we know, that much like giving black people the priesthood, God simply has not been able to convince culturally bound men that His plan of salvation encompasses more than just male dominated priesthood?

 

It is interesting that you should mention how important the idea of the Patriarchy is to Mormonism, in view of the recent passing of  Eldred G. Smith, our 8th presiding patriarch and the fact the the office of the Church Presiding Patriarch no longer seem necessary to fill even though at one time it was considered equal with or even above (by some) to that of the prophet.

 

Our views of the priesthood and of patriarchs has changed over time, as have what is considered integral to being a Mormon.

I am not going to bicker over definitions.  We are the only church which believes that God is a resurrected Human Man, who has a Wife and his only begotten Son is Jesus Christ, the savior of the world, and that we little gods in embryo can become like HIM- and sisters can become like HER.

 

Gender is the essential point of the church- and the essential characteristic of the leader of a family in this system is Patriarchy.

 

The rest of these beliefs are all "riders" attached to the central core doctrine which is unlike any other church.  THAT is what makes us Mormon.  Not Polygamy, not even the Priesthood- Catholics and others have that as well.  Not who even HAS the priesthood

 

The essence is Father and Mother, with gender roles. 

 

We don't even have revelations (yet) about Mother- just very scanty hints.  That hopefully will change, but the fact that she is our Mother cannot change and keep the essence of Mormonism.

 

Maybe we will find out what kind of Priestess she is- I pray to know.  But the belief that He is our Father and she is our Mother cannot change.  That belief IS what we are.

[Tsuzuki]

Well that is a suggestion but it is not our tradition.  When I asked for "alternatives" I didn't really mean to suggest that we should adopt Trinitarianism or any other "ism".

 

What I was trying to say is that there IS no alternative that is still "Mormonism".  We are all free to start our own churches, but they would not be the COJCLDS.

 

If one wants to believe/practice Thelema, great, but that's not Mormonism.  I am suggesting that perhaps certain beliefs can be modified and enlarged and re-interpreted, but patriarchy is not one of them if we want to keep the core of what we believe.

What I am saying is that there are other traditions that share the core belief that humans are Gods in embryo, and they are not bound by patriarchy, so it can be done.

[Ahab]

Does the one who presides have the final say?

The final say to what? What he will do?

Yep, I don't do anything God doesn't authorize me to do, or at least I try not to. I already have enough to do as it is.

[mfbukowski]

Great response and true.

I often joke that as the person with the most authority from God in my family that I get to be the one that gets to do what everybody else wants me to do, or will let me do.

My wife does a lot of things too, but with her bossing me around, albeit usually in a very nice way, I still end up being the one that gives the most service.

And they are giving me their authority/authorization to do it, which I will do as long as I know God also gives me his authority/authorization to do what I do.

And that is pretty much what being a Bishop is as well.  You are a servant of every person in the ward.  The phone rings at 3 AM, and you answer it.  Dinner with your wife?  You answer it.

[Abulafia]

Just to add that Ephesus (for teddyaware) was the centre for the cult of Artemis a female deity.

[ERayR]

Does the one who presides have the final say?

 

Yes as long as he stays within the agreed upon parameters.

[JLHPROF]

This is a very simple point.

 

Some are against the idea of Patriarchy.

 

That view is essential to Mormonism.  THAT VIEW IS MORMONISM.

 

There really isn't anything more to it.  God is our Father, we have a Mother and we make up their children, literally, as spirit children. As their children, our objective is to "grow up" to be like them.  All of our doctrine is based on that principle.

 

We don't know much about Heavenly Mother, and the Father presides over his family.

 

THAT my friends IS Mormonism

 

How can we possibly do away with that and remain "Mormons"?  Do we want to become Creedal Christians and accept the Trinity?  What is the alternative?

 

I am starting this thread for those who want to explain how it can change and have us keep our essential core beliefs.

 

Agreed 100%. 

It may not seem fair.  It may not fit with current thinking (ie the last 40 years out of all of earth's history).  But it does fit with eternal principles as established in scripture and the temple.

 

We know that Heavenly Father presides over his family.  We make assumptions about what role Heavenly Mother has, but it's safe to say it is a glorious and important role and that she defers to Heavenly Father in running our little creation here.

 

We desire to grow to be Heavenly Fathers and Mothers ourselves and live in this eternal patriarchal order as outlined in the temple.  I seem to post this a lot, even though it isn't 100% in keeping with current church teachings but to me it is the best description of Mormonism.:

 

The Ultimatum of Human LIfe by Eliza R. Snow

...'Tis not for you to pry

Into the secrets of the worlds on high--

To seek to know the first, the moving Cause,

Councils, decrees, organizations, laws--

Form'd by the Gods, pertaining to this earth,

Ere your great Father from their courts came forth,

The routine of his ancestors to tread--

Of this new world, to stand the royal head.

* * *

Adam, your God, like you on earth, has been

Subject to sorrow in a world of sin:

Through long gradation he arose to be

Cloth'd with the Godhead's might and majesty.

And what to him in his probative sphere,

Whether a Bishop, Deacon, Priest, or Seer?

Whate'er his offices and callings were,

He magnified them with assiduous care:

By his obedience he obtain'd the place

Of God and Father of this human race.

Obedience will the same bright garland weave,

As it has done for your great Mother, Eve,

For all her daughters on the earth, who will

All my requirements sacredly fulfill.

And what to Eve, though in her mortal life,

She'd been the first, the tenth, or fiftieth wife?

What did she care, when in her lowest state,

Whether by fools, consider'd small, or great?

'Twas all the same with her--she prov'd her worth--

She's now the Goddess and the Queen of Earth.

Life's ultimatum, unto those that live

As saints of God, and all my pow'rs receive;

Is still the onward, upward course to tread--

To stand as Adam and as Eve, the head

Of an inheritance, a new-form'd earth,

And to their spirit race, give mortal birth--

Give them experience in a world like this;

then lead them forth to everlasting bliss,

Crown'd with salvation and eternal joy

Where full perfection dwells, without alloy.