The Theology Of Patriarchy Cannot Be Changed.

[saemo]

Do you guys really have no idea how bad you all sound right now?

 

I mean really.....I know the guy a while back who said "check your privilege" was being sarcastic. But I'm not. I've never said that before, but frankly the shoe is really fitting right now. Juliann's reaction may have been heavy, but I promise it wasn't by much. Here's something I don't brag about much: I'm pretty. I don't mean that "haughtily" I mean that as an irrelevant fact to who I am...like saying I have brown eyes or ten fingers. I'm aware of it, because people tell me it all the time....male, female, young, old....doesn't matter. And here's another fact: It doesn't matter what I wear, a perfectly acceptable outfit on one girl, suddenly seems "immodest" or a "means to unintentionally seduce." If I dress up and pay a little more attention to my make-up, I'll be looked at. If I'm hiking in a tank and shorts, I'll be looked at.  

 

So I see myself in the woman (minus the height, I'm 5'5") in that song, not the poor, poor disrespected man. And the first few stanzas what I see is some fool, who can't stop eyeing me up and down because I've chosen to wear some heals and a skirt today. I've watched him sit while I'm filling up the gas (because women are usually aware when I dudes checking her out, ya guys aren't known for your subtlety). And he hasn't lifted a finger for the dad with 3 kids and the old lady who've come in and out of the door. Probably because he's distracted from oggling my tall limbs and "catwalk" (codename: my butt and, you know, moving with female hips) from afar. And there he is still watching every step I take as I walk to him, making a fool of himself all the more. Now, albeit, I wouldn't have done what she did....but knowing that a dude may not leave me alone for the while if I even smile at him (because obviously a smile means, come hither), I would probably act extremely cold to him. After all this guy has been watching me for a while, has given me the one over, and is currently still watching my figure as he's tipping his hat (right now, it's less like a gentleman and more like a perv, because he's still looking at my body like he's eyeing a meat auction). So when I'm the least assertive and call him out on his gentlemanly crappy, suddenly I go from lady to witch in 10 seconds flat and it's ok it allow a door to hit me in the face. Ya know, because I deserve it.    

 

Do women seduce? Of course they do. To be honest, when you know you can turn heads, sometimes it's fun to do just that. Sometimes it's useful (like getting through airport security fast and with less hassling). And there's others who do it far more regularly for some dumb reason or another. But most women, the vast majority that I know. Aren't. Because those turned heads and how we already look can easily lead to harassment, unwanted attention, men touching you inappropriately, rape, etc. We do not want random strangers on the street eyeing us for 15 minutes. But this isn't "her asking for it" this isn't because "she's obviously trying" the majority of the time, being on the receiving end and having pretty friends who've also had this happen far more than they'd ever want. It's not a modesty issue at all, unless somehow having a nice outcome in the roll of the gene pool counts as being immodest. This is a male issue. This is an issue littered with sexism, benevolent and otherwise, and a sense of deserving our attention because he smiles with extra "respect" and now suddenly we owe them our attention or kindness or demure approach. And the answer is that I need to be extra cautious or modest and wear my hair in a tight bun and never touch make-up and not wear clothes that fit me or set off my skintone (cuz that's what it would take to stop some men from staring....it wouldn't work, p.s. it would just change who's staring).

 

    

As a woman, on this note I think I can speak pretty authoritatively on this. This poem is not about a dude being disrespected and misbegotten chivalry. From this end, it's about a woman being disrespected because she didn't act how the man desired. 

 

And while I'm at it, CV75, modesty in dress and virtue in thought may both have spiritual implications, but I assure you they're not equal. When I have a bad thought no one feels the need to correct me and it's trusted that I will learn to self regulate. When I dress "immodestly" a number do seem to have a right to reinforce their standard of modesty on me. Physical modesty (of women usually) is one of the only virtues that seems to have more check by the society than the individual. And here, it has seemed to be most influenced by whether a man now lusts than anything else.

 

With luv,

BD

Ha! Men hold the door for the young, pretty girls and the same door swings right back at me like I'm invisible. I am always prepared to follow behind, keeping my hand on the door so as to not get whacked. LOL.

 

Use your pretty while you got it! :-)

[ERayR]

So if women read in a poem about a guy staring at a woman because he thinks she is seductive, we might have good reason to think he just isn't thinking about what kind of flowers she might like or if she is a good cook or likes to watch football. And while we are well aware that not all men are thinking "I am going to have that woman no matter what", we are generally also very, very aware there are enough men out there that are that our mothers, our sisters and friends have been attacked at least one out of twenty and more likely closer to one in ten or five.

 

 

When I posted the poem I expected one or two to ignore what was written and find fault with their own constructs but not you.  You are usually very careful at reading what is actually written.  What attitudes and actions the poet ascribes to each of the characters. 

 

I am frankly a little surprised at those who responded to their own characterization of what was really written.  As I said elswhere it offered me some insight into what may be going on in KK's mind.

[BlueDreams]

Ha! Men hold the door for the young, pretty girls and the same door swings right back at me like I'm invisible. I am always prepared to follow behind, keeping my hand on the door so as to not get whacked. LOL.

 

Use your pretty while you got it! :-)

 

Just for you I will....but I promise that if you're behind me I'll open the next door for ya too .

[Calm]

Ladies, (cal, blue, Juliann)  I can sympathize with you how all the lusty looks effect you. My wife complains all the time how she observes men out in public staring at our daughters.

 

But I think all the women in this thread jumping to the conclusion that the Cowboy was looking at the Woman lustfully and in the wrong is uncalled for.  Remember this was written in the third person,  The narrator is describing what he saw.

So it is the author (who identifies with cowboys btw) not the cowboy that sees the lady as seductive and in the end relates the door hitting the woman in the face and adding the comment of the cowboy that he can treat her with such carelessness because he only needs to be polite to women who behave like ladies.

I don't really care.

The woman got hurt and we supposed to think it funny.

I don't. I don't laugh at people in pain.

[jkwilliams]

When I posted the poem I expected one or two to ignore what was written and find fault with their own constructs but not you.  You are usually very careful at reading what is actually written.  What attitudes and actions the poet ascribes to each of the characters. 

 

I am frankly a little surprised at those who responded to their own characterization of what was really written.  As I said elswhere it offered me some insight into what may be going on in KK's mind.

 

For the record, I thought it was kind of appalling for the same reasons Cal did.

[Calm]

I must have missed your condemnation of her actions.

 

I could be wrong but if you go back and look the reaction was immediate and almost violent itself against the cowboys action.  It is interesting to observe who reacted and how to the provocations described in the poem.  Takes me back to a freshman English class I had in college.  The cowboys reaction to the young woman"s rudeness was immediately condemned, as it should be, but no general condemnation of the rudeness of the young woman.   Again it has been interesting to observe which way people came down on this.  I think that before we can ever come to a unity we have a lot of work to do.

 

Side note:  It has given me a little insight into KK"s frame of mind.  We each become fixated on our own perspective and have very little tolerance for something different.

For me the difference is who is the victim at the end of it. Both were jerks IMO, she was ruder in what she said. But she was also the only one physically injured and the poem was justifying, turning her pain into something to be laughed at. If it had been a woman doing it to a man I would have been just as offended.

[ERayR]

saemo, on 27 Jun 2014 - 4:51 PM, said:

Ha! Men hold the door for the young, pretty girls and the same door swings right back at me like I'm invisible. I am always prepared to follow behind, keeping my hand on the door so as to not get whacked. LOL.

 

Use your pretty while you got it! :-)

 

saemo I will hold the door for you and promise I won't let it hit you in the face. 

[mfbukowski]

Not all women read them. Some can't stand them...I am in this group. Not all women want rich and or powerful husbands.

And there are some women who have rape fantasies even....but that doesn't mean that is what they actually want.

Perhaps it would be helpful for everyone to stop using generalisations and work at specifying they are talking about a subsection of a gender.

Add-on: in 2009 there were over 158 million women in the US. That is a significant percentage of them reading romance, but not all romance is sexual (Jane Austen) and that is still the majority of women not reading.

OK, I kinda got that, and should have phrased it better but what do we do in the church then?  Clearly we don't take a vote and decide how to change doctrine accordingly

 

You can't please all the people all the time. 

[Calm]

I totally agree with you.  Great post and is the flip side of what I am saying and proves my point.

 

The facts of reproduction are the facts of reproduction.  It is biology.  Women must never be fearful of that in a civilized society- it has absolutely no place whatsoever, and that includes harassment of any kind.

 

To be what I call a "patriarch" those tendencies need to disappear completely, and only kindness and equality must reign totally.

 

But it is what we men must BECOME.  Ignoring that fact ignores the most basic moral principle that we are to "put away the natural man" and overcome.  Those who overcome can sit with the Lord in his kingdom.

 

But we men cannot overcome without that as an IDEAL to aspire after.

Yes. Consider this underlined and bolded but on iPad so too lazy to do the coding by hand.

[Zakuska]

So it is the author (who identifies with cowboys btw) not the cowboy that sees the lady as seductive and in the end relates the door hitting the woman in the face and adding the comment of the cowboy that he can treat her with such carelessness because he only needs to be polite to women who behave like ladies.

I don't really care.

The woman got hurt and we supposed to think it funny.

I don't. I don't laugh at people in pain.

 

Who thinks its funny? I see no one laughing that she got hurt. (If in fact she even did.  See below)

 

Lets walk a few lines in the Cowboys boots shall we?

 

He see's a pretty, not so modestly dressed, confident woman walking up to a building and he grabs the door for her,  She sticks her nose in the air and gives him a sex-lecture and points a condescending middle finger at him. He's apparently surprised by this. She's still standing there and will not walking through the door and much less one he's holding, so he lets the Door go.

 

I don't know about you... but... I had lots of doors slammed "in my face" on my mission.  Not once was I ever hurt by one.  Maybe a little emotionally.

 

But enough said about the poem.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Zakuska

[Calm]

I have a problem with the use of the term patriarchy, as it has been wholly co-opted, as I've mentioned before in this thread.  Your thesis I agree with.  I just wish we could come up with a better, non-in-your-face-use-of-a-charged term.

I agree. It is unfortunate that so much baggage has been attached to it.

[Calm]

I think the point you're getting at is that we need to have the attitude and perspective of a loving father to be as good as we can be. Father sounds better to me than patriarch and I think most people can relate to the concept of fatherhood rather than patriarchhood or patriarchy or however else you want to phrase it.

There's still a lot of good to be said about motherhood or matriarchhood/matriarchy too, though, and since I personally had a much better relationship with my Mom than my Dad there is more of my Mom incorporated into how I father my children as well as how I interact with my brothers and sisters, which is everybody on this planet.

Our Father is heaven is a perfect father, though, and I imagine that he interacts with us just as our Mother in heaven would if she interacted with us both personally and through our Father as they work through things together.

On the other hand, a Patriarch cared for all those who sought protection from him as if he was their father so there is IMO a nuance to Patriarch that is missing in Father.

[Calm]

When I posted the poem I expected one or two to ignore what was written and find fault with their own constructs but not you.  You are usually very careful at reading what is actually written.  What attitudes and actions the poet ascribes to each of the characters. 

 

I am frankly a little surprised at those who responded to their own characterization of what was really written.  As I said elswhere it offered me some insight into what may be going on in KK's mind.

A person..I don't care whether it was a man or woman...ended up smacked in the face and we are supposed to laugh at that because s/he deserved it. That is offensive.

That the justification used is she wasn't ladylike, that the author embodied her not as a thinking human being but as a sex object I find offensive.

That the author thinks cowboys would be okay with a woman being physically injured in their presence because as a result of their action or inaction i find it offensive.

That the author thinks it is alright to teach if people are jerks they deserve to be not only hurt, but laugh at is barbaric to me.

[Calm]

OK, I kinda got that, and should have phrased it better but what do we do in the church then?  Clearly we don't take a vote and decide how to change doctrine accordingly

 

You can't please all the people all the time.

We each need to seek out God to the best of our ability and ask him. And if someone else tells you God didn't tell you that, you need to decide if you've made a mistake and need to go back to the source or if the witness is sure in your mind, decide who you are going to listen to...the guy who is telling you what God said or God.

Now if God tells you to listen to the guy you should be doing both.

And whatever choice you make accept the consequences and don't try to wiggle out of them. God asks us to sacrifice for him. Our actions lose meaning when we try to include an escape clause.

[teddyaware]

A person..I don't care whether it was a man or woman...ended up smacked in the face and we are supposed to laugh at that because s/he deserved it. That is offensive.

That the justification used is she wasn't ladylike, that the author embodied her not as a thinking human being but as a sex object I find offensive.

That the author thinks cowboys would be okay with a woman being physically injured in their presence because as a result of their action or inaction i find it offensive.

That the author thinks it is alright to teach if people are jerks they deserve to be not only hurt, but laugh at is barbaric to me.

... running away and hiding. Yikes!

Edited June 27, 2014 by teddyaware

[Calm]

"Well it made my wife laugh..."

"Not quite as good as many dumb blonde jokes I've heard but it is still kinda funny if you're able to see the humor."

[Zakuska]

... running away and hiding. Yikes!

 

Tell me about it.  It seems many totally missed the point of the poem.

 

The woman is the one that placed herself in the supposed "dirty mind" of the Cowboy as a sex Object using her mind reading abilities that women think they have (My wife seems to thinks so anyway). The woman is the one that assigned malice to a total innocent act..Then she refused to walk though the door, so the man let it go. He didn't slam it on her or mean for the door to hit her.

 

 

"Well it made my wife laugh..."

"Not quite as good as many dumb blonde jokes I've heard but it is still kinda funny if you're able to see the humor."

 

 

Ok... one person laughed. I see no ambulance coming to stitch the woman up. What makes you think she got hurt?  I had many doors slammed in my face on my mission without me getting hurt.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Zakuska

[mfbukowski]

On the other hand, a Patriarch cared for all those who sought protection from him as if he was their father so there is IMO a nuance to Patriarch that is missing in Father.

Yes, agree.  We are talking here about Abraham as a paradigm, Moses, etc.  And we know that Abraham is on to his exaltation, so he must have done something right

[mfbukowski]

We each need to seek out God to the best of our ability and ask him. And if someone else tells you God didn't tell you that, you need to decide if you've made a mistake and need to go back to the source or if the witness is sure in your mind, decide who you are going to listen to...the guy who is telling you what God said or God.

Now if God tells you to listen to the guy you should be doing both.

And whatever choice you make accept the consequences and don't try to wiggle out of them. God asks us to sacrifice for him. Our actions lose meaning when we try to include an escape clause.

Sounds good to me!

[Calm]

What makes you think she got hurt? I had many doors slammed in my face on my mission without me getting hurt.

Because I have and I have seen others I including a guy gey a bloody nose as he was walking into it at the same time the other let go.

"And it hit'er right square in the face!"

Edited June 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

Not all women read them. Some can't stand them...I am in this group. Not all women want rich and or powerful husbands.

And there are some women who have rape fantasies even....but that doesn't mean that is what they actually want.

Perhaps it would be helpful for everyone to stop using generalisations and work at specifying they are talking about a subsection of a gender.

Add-on: in 2009 there were over 158 million women in the US. That is a significant percentage of them reading romance, but not all romance is sexual (Jane Austen) and that is still the majority of women not reading.

No not sexual, but certainly "sexist" by today's standards just the same, showing dependence on "salvation" by a rich and powerful man.

[Nemesis]

I'm not going to say what I was going to say but, consider saying some of the stuff some of you guys are saying to your young daughter or wife and see if you don't get the look. Thread closed.

Nemesis