The Theology Of Patriarchy Cannot Be Changed.

[JLHPROF]

Given that the Church now teaches that men and women are equal partners in marriage--neither one must defer to the other in making decisions but must both freely consent to each decision, I believe that God and His Wife are also equal partners.

 

Equal partners can mean many things.  If my wife and I start a restaurant as equal partners and I cook and she runs the front of the house we can still be equal partners who do not step on each others roles and responsibilities.

But frankly, I doubt very much that Heavenly Father asks our Heavenly Mother(s) for permission before acting.  But since they are all perfect they are all in harmony I doubt there would be any disagreement either.  I am sure that he seeks their counsel and advice on many subjects.

I see the relationship more as a Bishop and his counselors.  But one presides.

[teddyaware]

The big problem with quoting Ephesians is that is widely believed to have been written in the 80 to 100 period and is therefore pseudonymous. (Paul was dead). It reflects later theological concerns rather than those of the very earliest communities. Galatians just might be a more authentic lens into Paul's attitude to women.

Interesting approach. You don't say Paul was wrong or uninspired, but you do seem to say the epistle doesn't even belong in the Bible in the first place. Good insight. What would the Church do without its intellectuals? I'll be sure to mention this to the Gospel Doctrine teacher when we study Ephesians next year. We can just skip over that particular lesson. Why bother?

What you say about Paul's epistle to the Ephesians may be widely believed by the learned, and by the so-called "experts," but that doesn't make it so. The LDS Church believes the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; and as far as I know, the Prophet Joseph Smith didn't touch the verses in question.

For some reason, your post reminds me of the following words of exhortation Paul gave to the Ephesian saints:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Ephesians 4)

[Senator]

This is a very simple point.

 

Some are against the idea of Patriarchy.

 

That view is essential to Mormonism.  THAT VIEW IS MORMONISM.

 

There really isn't anything more to it.  God is our Father, we have a Mother and we make up their children, literally, as spirit children. As their children, our objective is to "grow up" to be like them.  All of our doctrine is based on that principle.

 

We don't know much about Heavenly Mother, and the Father presides over his family.

 

THAT my friends IS Mormonism

 

How can we possibly do away with that and remain "Mormons"?  Do we want to become Creedal Christians and accept the Trinity?  What is the alternative?

 

I am starting this thread for those who want to explain how it can change and have us keep our essential core beliefs.

 

I'm not convinced that the patriarchal order is an eternal system.  Given what we learn in the temple, it appears that the order was a result of the fall, and therefore subject to be finally redeemed through the atonement of Christ.

[Stone holm]

I remember sitting at a Ward Conference once during a Priesthood Session and a Brother went off on the whole husband presiding thing, the member of the Stake Presidency who was leading the session looked somewhat incredulous and then said you don't really believe you preside over your wife do you? Trying to picture me explaining to my wife that I preside over her. Hm...nope I don't think I want to commit suicide tonight so will take a pass on that. Get real brothers, the Victorian Era ended awhile back and it certainly does not define Mormonism.

[mfbukowski]

I'm not convinced that the patriarchal order is an eternal system.  Given what we learn in the temple, it appears that the order was a result of the fall, and therefore subject to be finally redeemed through the atonement of Christ.

OK, but I don't think that is the point.  Here we are, fallen beings.

 

For me, the point is simple.  Is God a Patriarch, and are we supposed to be like him or not?  Yes or No.

 

What is the story we are telling ourselves?  If God IS a Patriarch, and we are supposed to be like Him, = status quo

 

If God is NOT a Patriarch, and/or we are NOT supposed to be like him, then Mormonism is wrong.

 

I cannot see a refutation for that- can you?

 

Giving up patriarchy is giving up the church.  Period, end of story.

 

How is that wrong?  I am waiting for someone to answer that- so far, nada.   Sure we can tweak the beliefs and pretend, and keep the same name, or we can change the name like the Disciples of Christ etc.  The Church Formerly Known as The COJCLDS.- take your pick.

 

But doing so changes what is the fundamental nugget of what Mormonism is.

[mfbukowski]

I remember sitting at a Ward Conference once during a Priesthood Session and a Brother went off on the whole husband presiding thing, the member of the Stake Presidency who was leading the session looked somewhat incredulous and then said you don't really believe you preside over your wife do you? Trying to picture me explaining to my wife that I preside over her. Hm...nope I don't think I want to commit suicide tonight so will take a pass on that. Get real brothers, the Victorian Era ended awhile back and it certainly does not define Mormonism.

Domination and bossiness never defined Mormonism as far as I know.  Read D&C- "Amen to the priesthood of that man" etc.

[mfbukowski]

Agreed 100%. 

It may not seem fair.  It may not fit with current thinking (ie the last 40 years out of all of earth's history).  But it does fit with eternal principles as established in scripture and the temple.

 

We know that Heavenly Father presides over his family.  We make assumptions about what role Heavenly Mother has, but it's safe to say it is a glorious and important role and that she defers to Heavenly Father in running our little creation here.

 

We desire to grow to be Heavenly Fathers and Mothers ourselves and live in this eternal patriarchal order as outlined in the temple.  I seem to post this a lot, even though it isn't 100% in keeping with current church teachings but to me it is the best description of Mormonism.:

Great quote, thanks- I love Sister Snow, and always have.  THAT is the essence of Mormonism.

 

If the beef is about getting back to that, I am behind it all the way.  Got no problem with that.

[Tsuzuki]

OK, but I don't think that is the point.  Here we are, fallen beings.

 

For me, the point is simple.  Is God a Patriarch, and are we supposed to be like him or not?  Yes or No.

Did God fall when we did?

[mfbukowski]

I see Mormonism as the apotheosis of the Human Family and I don't know how you can have Mormonism without that.

[Tsuzuki]

I see Mormonism as the apotheosis of the Human Family and I don't know how you can have Mormonism without that.

I agree. However, the human family is not necessarily patriarchal.

[Ahab]

Agreed 100%.

It may not seem fair. It may not fit with current thinking (ie the last 40 years out of all of earth's history). But it does fit with eternal principles as established in scripture and the temple.

We know that Heavenly Father presides over his family. We make assumptions about what role Heavenly Mother has, but it's safe to say it is a glorious and important role and that she defers to Heavenly Father in running our little creation here.

Defers, huh. That's not quite the way it works in my family. And my wife is as sweet as can be.

You're familiar with how the right hand or right side of God's throne is a prominent position of power, aren't you? And that our Lord is on the right side of our Father? Well who do you think is on the left side of our Father in heaven, on what would be that person's right side?

I worship my wife as much as I worship our Father and our Lord, which works out pretty well because she also worships our Father and our Lord as much if not more than I do, and I suspect it will always be this way forever and ever.

I suppose there are some times when she defers to me, but I am usually the one deferring to her and what she wants from me. When she's happy I'm happy, and I love nothing more than making her as happy as far as I have the power to do that.

[Thinking]

When she's happy I'm happy, and I love nothing more than making her as happy as far as I have the power to do that.

 

The weaker sex is actually the stronger sex because of the weakness of the stronger sex for the weaker sex.

[mfbukowski]

Did God fall when we did?

Who cares and how would I know?  The classic answer of course is that that is ridiculous.

 

There are all kinds of ways of taking that of course- if he is our conception of our idealized selves, then yes. We are each Adam, we are each God. Brigham Young meets Jung. 

 

Pragmatically, it doesn't matter much.  The point is that either we view the apotheosis of the human family as the Godhead or not.  THAT is the story of Mormonism.  Without that, we are telling another story.

 

Brigham Jung.  :rofl:

Edited June 26, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I agree. However, the human family is not necessarily patriarchal.

Debatable- who is making the call?  The Mormon human family is.  That is how it is defined.

 

And the real trick is that the narrative about Heavenly Mother will have to suddenly turn everything upside down to make it work.

 

At what point is "same" the same?

Edited June 26, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Tsuzuki]

Debatable- who is making the call?  The Mormon human family is.  That is how it is defined.

It doesn't have to be, nor are the Gods bound by how Mormons structure their families.

 

And the real trick is that the narrative about Heavenly Mother will have to suddenly turn everything upside down to make it work.

Outside the belief in Her existence, Heavenly Mother doesn't have a narrative in Mormonism, though She does in other traditions.

[Wants2know]

What I want to know is where the Theology of Matriarchy disappeared to in the Church. Its all over the Old Testament and much of the New.  It was there in Joseph Smiths time, but every since the Women Liberation movement, its virtually absent in the church.

I wonder about this as well.  Not sure it has much to do with the women's movement though.  What makes you connect the two?

[mfbukowski]

It doesn't have to be, nor are the Gods bound by how Mormons structure their families.

 

Outside the belief in Her existence, Heavenly Mother doesn't have a narrative in Mormonism, though She does in other traditions.

Maybe yes maybe no.  When I meet Her I will let you know if the Mormons were right.  But that's still not the point.  The point here is whether or not the MORMONS are right.  That presumes a correspondence theory of truth used in a religious context- which  is a no-no as far as I am concerned.

 

Maybe some other church IS "right", but that is not the discussion.

[jkwilliams]

Why would we assume that our flawed, human view accurately reflects how God (father and mother) operates?

[Tsuzuki]

Maybe yes maybe no.  When I meet Her I will let you know if the Mormons were right.  But that's still not the point.  The point here is whether or not the MORMONS are right.  That presumes a correspondence theory of truth used in a religious context- which  is a no-no as far as I am concerned.

 

Maybe some other church IS "right", but that is not the discussion.

Your claim is that something is not possible. I'm saying that it very much is. One of the fundamental claims of Mormonism is that even if it's right, it still doesn't have the whole story.

 

"...and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

[ERayR]

Why would we assume that our flawed, human view accurately reflects how God (father and mother) operates?

 

Yep seeing as how this is patterned after his world and is a training facility for us to practice getting it right.  Yes I would expect some resemblance.

[DJBrown]

I'm not convinced that the patriarchal order is an eternal system.  Given what we learn in the temple, it appears that the order was a result of the fall, and therefore subject to be finally redeemed through the atonement of Christ.

 

What if the behavior of Adam and Eve respectively in the Garden was true to their natures?  In other words, each did what was their nature to do.  This possibility seems very likely, at least in the most recent versions of the endowment.  Their responses and actions and words are different without one being better than the other. 

 

I have been so impressed with the role and wisdom of Eve in the new presentation.  I see the whole thing in a new light.

[jkwilliams]

Yep seeing as how this is patterned after his world and is a training facility for us to practice getting it right.  Yes I would expect some resemblance.

 

Is it church doctrine that Heavenly Mother has no priesthood authority or office?

[ERayR]

Is it church doctrine that Heavenly Mother has no priesthood authority or office?

 

That was not the question.  Note please for reading comprehension that I did not say it was a fax copy but only patterned after.  You have attempted a red herring by posing a different question.  Perhaps you would like to start one with that question?

[jkwilliams]

That was not the question.  Note please for reading comprehension that I did not say it was a fax copy but only patterned after.  You have attempted a red herring by posing a different question.  Perhaps you would like to start one with that question?

 

You suggested that what we see on earth is patterned after what happens in the celestial realms, which to me suggests that Heavenly Mother has no priesthood authority. I simply asked you to clarify if that's what you meant. If it's a red herring to ask you about the implications of what you said, then I plead guilty.

[JLHPROF]

Is it church doctrine that Heavenly Mother has no priesthood authority or office?

 

I don't think there is an "official" doctrine, but I would strongly say that she absolutely has priesthood and office.