The Theology Of Patriarchy Cannot Be Changed.

[jkwilliams]

I found it rather interesting that Kelly's own stated approach to elders she disagreed with was "I'm not listening…"

In case I haven't made this clear, I'm not defending Kate Kelly and am not pushing for women to be ordained to the priesthood. As I have said several times, this is something for active members of the church and the leadership to deal with, not me. My comment was about the perception some women have of being devalued in the church. I've seen some pretty hurtful things said about women in general and Kate Kelly in particular, which I find really disturbing.

[Calm]

Semantics as usual.  Of course no one can make you happy but yourself.  You twist everything.

 

You make the nehor look like an amateur.  (I hope he sees this)

I said the same thing, lol.

[Zakuska]

Because it's not a "patriarchy" when partners are equal.  All that is left is presiding which no one seems to be able to define.  The family is considered to be the eternal unit not the church as we presently know it.  Does the church champion patriarchy or priesthood? Is the word patriarchy even in any doctrinal statements?  If you haven't seen the distancing from the two, you haven't been listening to recent conference talks.  Men are not the priesthood, even if referred to as patriarchs.

 

I think presiding might be synonymous with "leading" or taking the helm of a Ship. Lets also remember the woman "subjugates" her self to her husband by covenant. Right Now Christ is Ruling over this earth. But at some point in the future even he is going to subjugate himself to the Father again.

 

 

• 1 Corinthians 15:28

  28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Zakuska

[jkwilliams]

And I find it offensive and dismissive of the very important males in both the co-creation of the next generation and its training.

 

D@mned few advocate for nuclear families these days, and to dismiss those men that bother to engage in meaningful fatherhood and husbandry as evil, brutal, dictatorial patriarchs [the inevitable meaning nearly everybody attaches to patriarchy these days] is slightly more than wrongheaded.

CFR on my ever dismissing the important role of men or not advocating nuclear families. I honestly have no idea where any of this is coming from, as I have never once said anything like what you are suggesting. If I'm offending someone, it damn well should be because of something I've actually said, not something invented out of whole cloth.

[jkwilliams]

I said the same thing, lol.

Should you be worried that you and I had the same idea?

[Ahab]

Then I suppose we disagree.

Well let's work on that until both of us agree with each other and both of us also agree with God. Surely he doesn't have conflicting ideas.

If that works for you, then good on you. I can't imagine either my wife or I having that kind of goal.

So what do you do with your towels, and what does she do, and do you both think that's the best thing to do with your towels? Hopefully you at least wash them once in a while and don't put your dirty and clean towels in the same place.

This is a good example of what I'm talking about. I'm not even sure there is a best way to put away towels, let alone ever going to my wife and saying, "You know, sweetheart, the way you fold towels isn't the best way. Perhaps you should consider folding them the way I do." Nope, can't even imagine doing that. The worst that can happen in my current system (supposing that we had different ways of folding towels) is that the towels in the linen closet might be folded two different ways.

That doesn't sound too bad for a worst case scenario. I'd question why you would both not do the sane thing, though.

For us, it's important to come to agreement on important things, but even then we understand that we don't always handle things the same way. Recently one of our children came to us separately for some advice about dating. We're generally on the same page so far as these things go, but the advice we each gave our child was different and really covered different aspects of dating. My wife was surprised at what I told my child, but we agreed that we had both given good advice and that, taken together, it was pretty solid and covered everything our child asked.

We do the same thing, though we don't always agree, and that's OK. If agreement about religion were a primary goal in our marriage, we'd probably not be married anymore. We had to accept a long time ago that we disagree and are likely never going to agree about religion. We spent about 2 years doing what you suggested, talking endlessly about our religious differences and how to resolve them, and it almost ended our marriage. We had to let go and realize that our disagreement in this matter wasn't important enough to destroy our marriage and break up our family. Life got much better after that.

That happens a lot with me and my wife too, with both of us contributing to the end result and both of us thinking we handled it, together, in the best way we could think of.

That's how I see my marriage, too. I think we just have different ways of getting there.

Or maybe you just haven't tackled the issue of the best way to handle your towels, yet. Edited June 26, 2014 by Ahab

[Calm]

 

. But that is what always happens.  We criticize those who ask the questions.  

 

I was with you until this.

 

This does happen, it happens a lot.  It doesn't always happen.  Let us applaud and point out when it doesn't so people start to notice them more and more and more and more listening will occur.

[Calm]

The irony is that only the Patriarchy can answer them. Even KK was acknowledging that by her demands TO the Patriarchy.

No one sees the irony. I am running away from home but daddy has to drive me.

Actually I have heard several feminists point this out and the irony of it.  It is one of the reason they don't want ordination.

 

It is one of the reasons I don't want it.  I could have sworn that Juliann at least had mentioned it here.  I know she and I have tossed that one back and forth quite a bit.

Edited June 26, 2014 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

I threw up a little when I read that post about keeping mama happy. Let's just say that Brother Bukowski's thoughts would not be well received by my wife and daughters.

 

What! Your wife and daughters don't want to be happy?

[jkwilliams]

What! Your wife and daughters don't want to be happy?

Whatever makes you think my wife and daughters don't want to be happy?

[Calm]

I realize you probably don't think very highly of me...

Want me to think higher of you (don't know if you do, just a suggestion)…lose the self deprecation.  It is like saying "don't think of elephants"…if you want people to move on, don't dwell on the past as much.     It is easier to believe people have changed if they don't keep focusing on what was.  Hope that makes sense.  Think of it as God forgetting our sins once we have truly repented and ourselves not even being able to remember what that kind of person we once were was like (though that is the ideal that may have to wait for the next life).

Edited June 26, 2014 by calmoriah

[jkwilliams]

Well let's work on that until both of us agree with each other and both of us also agree with God. Surely he doesn't have conflicting ideas.

I do not believe God cares how I fold my towels, and I cannot imagine asking Him to reveal His will about folding towels.

So what do you do with your towels, and what does she do, and do you both think that's the best thing to do with your towels? Hopefully you at least wash them once in a while and don't put your dirty and clean towels in the same place.

We do what most people do: we wash them, fold them, put them in the cupboard, use them, and repeat the process.

That doesn't sound too bad for a worst case scenario. I'd question why you would both not do the sane thing, though.

It's probably because neither of us cares one way or the other. There are lots of things we do differently. I make scrambled eggs differently than she does, and it's not a big deal to either of us. I just can't imagine trying so hard to come to agreement on every last detail of our lives. I think we have better things to do with our time.

That happens a lot with me and my wife too, with both of us contributing to the end result and both of us thinking we handled it, together, in the best way we could think of.

Or maybe you just haven't tackled the issue of the best way to handle your towels, yet.

Given that it's never come up in 27 years, it probably will never happen. It's a triviality. We're more interested in things like getting our kids through high school and college and teaching them to be responsible and decent adults.

[jkwilliams]

Want me to think higher of you (don't know if you do, just a suggestion)…lose the self deprecation.  It is like saying "don't think of elephants"…if you want people to move on, don't dwell on the past as much.     It is easier to believe people have changed if they don't keep focusing on what was.  Hope that makes sense.  Think of it as God forgetting our sins once we have truly repented and ourselves not even being able to remember what that kind of person we once were was like (though that is the ideal that may have to wait for the next life).

Easier said than done, but thank you for the advice. I think self-deprecation has become a way of life with me. Not healthy, but working on it.

[USU78]

CFR on my ever dismissing the important role of men or not advocating nuclear families. I honestly have no idea where any of this is coming from, as I have never once said anything like what you are suggesting. If I'm offending someone, it damn well should be because of something I've actually said, not something invented out of whole cloth.

 

It's coming from your specialized usage of the term "patriarchy."  Nobody else would use it that way.  It is a pejorative, plain and simple.

[ERayR]

No, she's just quiet like the rest of her female children.

 

Why is it that I feel the need to speak less about the more intelligent things around men at family gatherings because if I do, I might sound manly or macho?  Why do I feel the need to be soft spoken and quiet and sweet around them?  Speaking of my very TBM bro in laws and father in law of course.  I know it's all in my head but this has been part of my being for so long.  Do any women here feel the same, or am I an anomaly?  What is that all about?  Who or what made me feel this way?    

 

I am sorry your family dynamics is flawed.  Have a conversation with your husband and see if the two of you can find a way to educate the family to behave in a more appropriate manner towards the women.

[jkwilliams]

It's coming from your specialized usage of the term "patriarchy."  Nobody else would use it that way.  It is a pejorative, plain and simple.

What specialized usage? Bukowski's thread is explicitly about patriarchy--as in "The Theology Of Patriarchy Cannot Be Changed"--so I naturally used the term. Is it pejorative to use "Western" as opposed to generalized patriarchy? I just find your outrage rather strange, given that you are reading all kinds of horrible things into my use of a single word. Rape and white slavery? Opposing the nuclear family and devaluing men? Really?

Edited June 26, 2014 by jkwilliams

[Calm]

 I've seen some pretty hurtful things said about women in general and Kate Kelly in particular, which I find really disturbing.

Indeed.

 

I have had the same problem that when saying something along the above, I am challenged as being on the "other side" as if I have come out in support of ordination or men as pigs or whatever (and I have seen the reverse as when someone says they are not for ordination…so not saying it is one sided…disclaimer alert) simply because I recognize some behaviour as wrong and point it out.

 

It is frustrating, but there are somethings I've learned that we need to include disclaimers with just because they are so highly emotionally charged and while we may not be part of the polarization, it is going on all around us.

[Calm]

We do what most people do: we wash them, fold them, put them in the cupboard, use them, and repeat the process.

 

Guess our pulling them out of the basket as needed is an anomaly then…oh well, works for us.

[juliann]

You're not an anomaly. Every family is different, and I've found that in some environments I feel more comfortable speaking my mind than in others. There are lots of different conversation patterns and topics amongst men and women that have thousands of years worth of history. It won't change over night. It is also very difficult sometimes to convey to a man what it feels like. I've had several simply dismiss it as a nonissue. It is an issue and you're not alone.

 

The ridicule and abuse of women during the "women's lib" era was appalling.  For those who didn't experience this era, watching Mad Men is a must. Even though over dramatized and about upper class, it is an often dead on representation of the life of a woman in business or as a homemaker. I had two summer jobs on both coasts after graduating from high school.  There were older men at each place openly putting the moves on me, still a teenager.  It was just taken for granted. After college, my first job interviewer in SLC asked why I hadn't majored in "home ec."  So I left the Mormons and went to CA, where my first job interviewer asked me if I was planning on marrying. It was everywhere. It was the way we thought and lived. It did not feel out of place at the time...until women began to object and demand  social and political rights and then the casual but pervasive disrespect and disregard for women began to settle in.

 

Just as we had to be made aware of how damaging our language was towards minority groups, we are having to do that now in the church regarding girls and women.

[jkwilliams]

 

Guess our pulling them out of the basket as needed is an anomaly then…oh well, works for us.

Oh, you had to start that again. If there's one thing we'll never agree on, it's when and how to get them out of the basket.

[Calm]

Easier said than done, but thank you for the advice. I think self-deprecation has become a way of life with me. Not healthy, but working on it.

There is a fine line between being brave and admitting publicly where one is wrong and wallowing in it and it can vary from situation to situation and person to person.  Some need people to confess several times to be reassured the change has taken and it is safe to respond to the new way.  Others (myself in this camp) prefer to move on quickly and just deal with actual behaviour that is going on now especially if there was no personal harm done.

 

Habits save energy, but since everyone is different and different at different times in their lives, habits can also interfere with reacting appropriately.  I know there is a perfect balance between saving energy by using good habits and staying aware so as to react quickly and effectively, but where it is at is a mystery to me (a little self deprecation in there myself…hummm…but then I am still in that state and haven't moved on yet so maybe that is why it is okay for me to say it. )

[jkwilliams]

Just as we had to be made aware of how damaging our language was towards minority groups, we are having to do that now in the church regarding girls and women.

 

I had a bit of a shock recently when I checked my sister's ratings on "RateMyProfessor." She teaches engineering at an LDS-owned university, and unsurprisingly most of the students are male. I'm biased, of course, but she's pretty brilliant, and I know how hard she works to get her students internships and other learning and career opportunities. I was expecting some negative reviews, as it seems most people don't bother rating their professors unless they are unhappy with them. But what surprised me was the number of comments about how she should she keep her "pretty little head" at home taking care of kids instead of trying to teach engineering. Several students apparently found it offensive that they have to be taught by a woman.

 

Of course I don't believe those comments are representative of LDS men or BYU students in general, but it was shocking and a reminder of how much work we still have to do.

[JLHPROF]

The ridicule and abuse of women during the "women's lib" era was appalling.  For those who didn't experience this era, watching Mad Men is a must. Even though over dramatized and about upper class, it is an often dead on representation of the life of a woman in business or as a homemaker. I had two summer jobs on both coasts after graduating from high school.  There were older men at each place openly putting the moves on me, still a teenager.  It was just taken for granted. After college, my first job interviewer in SLC asked why I hadn't majored in "home ec."  So I left the Mormons and went to CA, where my first job interviewer asked me if I was planning on marrying. It was everywhere. It was the way we thought and lived. It did not feel out of place at the time...until women began to object and demand  social and political rights and then the casual but pervasive disrespect and disregard for women began to settle in.

 

Just as we had to be made aware of how damaging our language was towards minority groups, we are having to do that now in the church regarding girls and women.

 

I think there is a huge difference between the men who support the gospel principle of Patriarchy presiding and the men who don't understand the eternal importance of the female side of exaltation.  But unfortunately men who accept patriarchy and role differentiation are tarred with the same brush as men who seek to subjugate or diminish a woman's role in the gospel.

[Tacenda]

I realize you probably don't think very highly of me, but I appreciate your thoughtful responses both generally and in this discussion. You have a way of saying what I would like to say without causing conflict or hurt feelings. I am trying to do better and am learning from you, so thank you.

Well she did study psychology in school you know...which I just learned 2 seconds ago. And I agree with you.

[Tacenda]

My experience was the reverse. I have always been more respected in my dealings with men inside the Church than outside.

It may be luck of the draw. I know the women my husband worked with came up and told me they never had another boss or colleague male or female that treated them so respectfully.

I do know men who disregard women in the Church, but all of them that I know disregard men as well so I am not a good source for specifics on major disrepects. There is at this time a bias where there are some men who 'just don't get it' when it comes to women but I see that in women as well for men (and it may be biological to some extent and not just cultural given the evidence of brains working differently generally speaking), so the only problem I see is that the written word at this point allows for the first to be more easily sustained than the second due to the lesser presence of women in scripture and history discussions and at the pulpit (we have been less visually 'present'). This is changing and in time I suspect we will come to the point where disrespect that is still present will be pretty much equally balanced in open, obvious expression for both sexes (and hopefully this will be very, very minor).

I only have this feeling around my in laws who are TBM to the max, in church I'm fine. Maybe I married into the wrong family, I have a lot of hang ups around them. But I love my husband, though it's an ongoing process of standing my ground, and feeling good about myself.