Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Flyonthewall]

There are dozens of verses that clearly teach that our salvation is based on faith and not works.  Contrast this to what Mormonism teaches which is faith and lots of works in order to be exalted.  These two viewpoints are completely opposite of each other and both can't be true.  This touches on the second main point that I have mentioned before  (1. In the true God of the Bible;   2.  What God has laid out for us to do and what is required for salvation. )

 

BTW I disagree with your interpretation of the verses in Matthew 19.  If you like we can discuss them.

What is it you disagree with? I pulled it straight from the Bible. Did Jesus not give a list of things to do, ie keep the commandments? Or do you believe Jesus did simply say Believe me?

There are many Biblical verses that indicate works are an integral part of one's salvation.

How can you ignore James 2:17? If faith is dead without works, and if salvation is based on faith, then you are saying dead faith brings salvation.

[halconero]

But what of the scripture that EV's bring up and I once brought up in GD class, very timidly in my crisis, that works are but filthy rags, how do we get around that? Btw, the GD teacher had no idea what I was talking about, I was very embarrassed, to say the least.

 

The word used to describe the "righteous deeds" in Isaiah is derived from the Hebrew "odim" meaning ornamental dress. Israel was disguising their wickedness with hypocritical righteous deeds.

 

Context, context, context. Removing a verse from its surrounding chapter, historical, archaeological, linguistic, and religious context destroys any original meaning it had.

[danielwoods]

I can't think of a single instance of Jesus condemning someone for have wrong beliefs. He did condemn (sort of) faithlessness but not certain beliefs. To Him is was ACTIONS that were praised and condemned.

My only response is this verse.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

It seems to indicate that those who "obey" God are given the Holy Ghost. Which I am sure would provide that connection to God.

I would say so, and that is what the scriptures indicate.

 

I think that beliefs and actions are connected, as James makes clear. Jesus said many times, "Have you not read..." condemning false notions, which lead to false actions. 

 

What I find interesting, is that Jesus had grace. To the woman caught in adultery, he said "He who has no sin, cast the first stone." None had no sin. When they all left, he had forgiveness and grace for the woman. 

 

As for Acts 5:32. I agree that the Spirit given to us provides a connection to God. The question is what does "obey" actually mean in this context? And looking at the passage, Peter was just told by the Sanhedrin to stop preaching in this name. His reply was that we should obey God rather than man. In other words, preaching Jesus is to obey, and not preaching is to disobey, in this context. 

 

Connection to God directly is the primary message of Jesus and the Apostles throughout the NT. As Paul stated in 2 cor. 5:¹⁷ Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! ¹⁸ All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: ¹⁹ that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. ²⁰ We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. ²¹ God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

 

Being reconciled to God is to be connected directly, and as it states here, he doesn't count our sins against us, and if we are truly seeking the truth, I don't think he counts our erroneous views against us either. 

[Calm]

What I find interesting, is that Jesus had grace. To the woman caught in adultery, he said "He who has no sin, cast the first stone." None had no sin. When they all left, he had forgiveness and grace for the woman. 

 

Didn't he also say "go and sin no more"?

[danielwoods]

Didn't he also say "go and sin no more"?

 

Indeed. Which wasn't the attitude of those with stones in their hands. 

[Storm Rider]

 

I think that beliefs and actions are connected, as James makes clear. Jesus said many times, "Have you not read..." condemning false notions, which lead to false actions. 

 

What I find interesting, is that Jesus had grace. To the woman caught in adultery, he said "He who has no sin, cast the first stone." None had no sin. When they all left, he had forgiveness and grace for the woman. 

 

As for Acts 5:32. I agree that the Spirit given to us provides a connection to God. The question is what does "obey" actually mean in this context? And looking at the passage, Peter was just told by the Sanhedrin to stop preaching in this name. His reply was that we should obey God rather than man. In other words, preaching Jesus is to obey, and not preaching is to disobey, in this context. 

 

Connection to God directly is the primary message of Jesus and the Apostles throughout the NT. As Paul stated in 2 cor. 5:¹⁷ Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! ¹⁸ All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: ¹⁹ that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. ²⁰ We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. ²¹ God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

 

Being reconciled to God is to be connected directly, and as it states here, he doesn't count our sins against us, and if we are truly seeking the truth, I don't think he counts our erroneous views against us either. 

 

So based upon your last sentence, specifically, "...he doesn't count our sins against us,..."  Being a Christian would then mean that there is no judgment because there is nothing to judge because a Christian's sins are all forgiven.  

 

I disagree with such a position.  A Christian is forgiven through repentance.  The ordinance of baptism wipes all sins away at that time, but then we must still repent of sins.  A Christian can still sin, but as we hope to grow in Christ our desire to follow him and emulate his examples is magnified just as our desire to sin is made less appealing.

 

Faith without works is dead; faith is active; it demands action.  When those actions do not exist then surely the scripture is true and that faith is a dead faith. 

[Canadaigua]

    Canadaigua we believe in the True doctrine of #1 + #2 you posted.

 

In His Debt/Grace

      Anakin7

LDS and Evangelical Christians differ on both points.

[Canadaigua]

Christ himself taught clearly that works are necessary for salvation.  He taught it clearly in the Bible.

The Bible doesn't teach that salvation is by works, rather it teaches us that we are saved by faith.  

 

What verses are you speaking about specifically?

[Canadaigua]

What is it you disagree with? I pulled it straight from the Bible. Did Jesus not give a list of things to do, ie keep the commandments? Or do you believe Jesus did simply say Believe me?

 

If you would like I would be happy to discuss your example from Matthew 19

[Canadaigua]

Didn't he also say "go and sin no more"?

The Pharisees obeyed more rules and regulations than those who Jesus sought out.  Since LDS believe that exhalation is based on obedience to rules and regulation why didn't Jesus seek out those who by LDS standards were more "righteous"?

 

BTW you bring up a good point--"go and sin no more".  

 

LDS believe that they can perfectly obey all of the commandments so shouldn't that be the standard requirement for exaltation?

Edited September 12, 2014 by Canadaigua

[Flyonthewall]

If you would like I would be happy to discuss your example from Matthew 19

In hopes that it will answer my questions, let's discuss. Your turn.

[halconero]

The Bible doesn't teach that salvation is by works, rather it teaches us that we are saved by faith.  

 

What verses are you speaking about specifically?

 

And what did faith mean in its original Hellenistic context? 

 

I'll give you a hint, it goes beyond belief and enters into waters that many modern Christians would call works.

[Vance]

I think that beliefs and actions are connected, as James makes clear. Jesus said many times, "Have you not read..." condemning false notions, which lead to false actions.

They are, BUT!

If both of us believe in a loving, just, and merciful God, but believe vastly different about His physical nature (or lack thereof), what we believe in common about His character will drive us both to the same types of actions. Right? 

If we both believe that He rewards the good and punishes the bad, won't that drive us to be better? 

Now, as far as that "have ye not read" phrase. Jesus ONLY used it when He was confront by Pharisees or Sadducees. It is rather obvious that it was they who were claiming that Jesus was in error, either in action or belief. As you recall they were hypocrites of the first degree.

He never used those words for the average individual.

 

What I find interesting, is that Jesus had grace. To the woman caught in adultery, he said "He who has no sin, cast the first stone." None had no sin. When they all left, he had forgiveness and grace for the woman. 

 

As for Acts 5:32. I agree that the Spirit given to us provides a connection to God. The question is what does "obey" actually mean in this context? And looking at the passage, Peter was just told by the Sanhedrin to stop preaching in this name. His reply was that we should obey God rather than man. In other words, preaching Jesus is to obey, and not preaching is to disobey, in this context.

I think you are rationalizing in an effort to limit the application of a clearly general teaching. The context is clear. They, the apostles were witnesses of Christ's resurrection, and so was the Holy Ghost a witness of Christ's resurrection. And the notion that the God gives the Holy Ghost to the obedient is separate.

You are basically saying that no one before Christ could have been connected to God. I think Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elijah and a host of others would disagree with you.

 

Connection to God directly is the primary message of Jesus and the Apostles throughout the NT.

And so is obedience to God.

 

As Paul stated in 2 cor. 5:¹⁷ Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! ¹⁸ All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: ¹⁹ that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. ²⁰ We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. ²¹ God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

That does not counter nor contradict the notion that God gives the Holy Ghost to the obedient.

 

Being reconciled to God is to be connected directly, and as it states here, he doesn't count our sins against us, and if we are truly seeking the truth, I don't think he counts our erroneous views against us either.

There are many spiritually connected individuals in the world who know nothing about Jesus. Edited September 12, 2014 by Vance

[LittleNipper]

Yes, I do believe the Bible in its original language. There are some issues with translations but I feel God works to bring the truth to all those seeking it.  I feel God will often allow one to be emptied of lies and half truths in order to fill him up again with the fact of God. Seek after Him and do not allow yourself to be manipulated into being controlled by those seeking to be in command. We are not at the mercy of religion. We have one Priest, one Prophet, one King and He is the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Vance]

The Bible doesn't teach that salvation is by works, rather it teaches us that we are saved by faith.  

 

What verses are you speaking about specifically?

Well there is that part of Romans written by Paul that you ignore.

Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Jesus taught,

Matt 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus also taught,

Matt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF thou wilt enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

Jesus condemning the Pharisees,

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Jesus also taught,

Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall DO AND TEACH THEM, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Oh, I forgot, you guys ignore what Jesus taught and only pay attention to your misinterpreted version of Paul.

[LittleNipper]

So, if one believes in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit-----then because there is ONE GOD, that Lord God must be Triune!

[Vance]

The Pharisees obeyed more rules and regulations than those who Jesus sought out.  Since LDS believe that exhalation is based on obedience to rules and regulation why didn't Jesus seek out those who by LDS standards were more "righteous"?

Wow, is that why Jesus said to the them,

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well YE REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, that ye may keep your own tradition.

You seem to be accusing us of requiring more than God's commandments. Yet it is you that rejects the commandments of God.

LDS believe that they can perfectly obey all of the commandments so shouldn't that be the standard requirement for exaltation?

You do know that Jesus taught,

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Matt 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Paul seemed to think that perfection was possible,

1 Cor 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are PERFECT: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Even Paul commanded it,

2 Cor 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. BE PERFECT, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Paul describes the organization,

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the PERFECTING of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I could go on, but that is enough to show that you obviously don't know your Bible very well.

[Vance]

So, if one believes in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit-----then because there is ONE GOD, that Lord God must be Triune!

Yes, and Paul and Apollos are a mysterious biune.

1 Cor 3: 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth ARE ONE: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

[Vance]

And what did faith mean in its original Hellenistic context? 

 

I'll give you a hint, it goes beyond belief and enters into waters that many modern Christians would call works.

Apparently we just don't get it.

"Faith" MUST mean ONLY what Modern American Protestant Evangelicals think it means. Original context, meaning and usage are irrelevant.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Vance

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The Bible doesn't teach that salvation is by works, rather it teaches us that we are saved by faith.  

 

What verses are you speaking about specifically?

Sigh, and just what is faith if it is alone? BTW it is a straw man to say that we believe we are saved by our good deeds alone as you seem to imply.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Jesus taught,

Matt 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Not that parable. You mean I have to do more than just say Jesus' name to be saved?

[ERayR]

So, if one believes in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit-----then because there is ONE GOD, that Lord God must be Triune!

 

That is one explanation.  It might also be that you do not really understand what God is.

[JLHPROF]

The Bible doesn't teach that salvation is by works, rather it teaches us that we are saved by faith.  

 

What verses are you speaking about specifically?

 

Christ said -

 

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12

AND

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

AND

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."  John 14:21

AND

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."  John 14:23

 

 

So Christ very clearly said that if we love and believe on his name we will keep his commandments (works).

Is belief enough without doing anything (works)?

 

 

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt 7:22

 

Even Christ had to do works.

 

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." "

John 10:36-38

 

But does ANY of this require these works for salvation?

Use a little logic - we are required to believe on Christ to be saved (you could argue that is a work but I digress).  How does Christ know we believe on Him?  Because we keep his commandments (works).  If we don't keep his commandments then logically we don't believe on him.

[ERayR]

The Bible doesn't teach that salvation is by works, rather it teaches us that we are saved by faith.  

 

Are you saying that I can be murderer, adulterer or just a despot in general and as long as I believe and have faith I am saved? 

 

I asked so that I can clarify what you are really saying.

[LittleNipper]

Can Mormons say that they know everything about God? This is the reality , that  only God fully understands God. We can only seek God through the Lord Jesus Christ.