Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

LDS believe that works are required for exaltation--without the required works you can't possibly be exalted.

The bible says that too you guys love to ignore James, as it has been pointed out so many times now.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Salvation by faith in Christ applies to humans--not to angelic beings such angels/demons.  

Irrelevant. They are not saved by a mere belief. That is the point of those words.

[danielwoods]

Why limit it to Revelation? Why not to the Bible? Could it be this for just one of many examples.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Does "all" mean all? What separates those that are resurrected to eternal life and those that are not?

 

Talk about a blatant falsehood. The epistle was written to Rom 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:"

Apparently some of the saints in Rome were less than perfect.

I notice that you skipped over the content of a few verses. Like verse 6 "to EVERY MAN according to his deeds". Does "EVERY MAN" only refer to the "non-believers" among the Christians in Rome?

 

Moving the goal posts I see.

First it was that they don't have fellowship with God, and now you are limiting it to "the Father". Do Jesus and the Holy Ghost now not qualify as God?

 

We were talking about a specific passage in Revelation, that is why I asked. 

 

What separates those who have eternal life and those who don't? Jesus said, "Knowing the only true God…" That's it. Relationship with God directly. 

 

The passage in Romans was clearly describing non-believers, who have no excuse, and who are stubborn and will be judged based on their works because they don't have Christ. For those who have Christ, there is no condemnation. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Nah, it pretty much does say that. The epistle of James is addressed to a caricature of Paul, or those who have misinterpreted Paul's epistles. It's a response to the Saved by Faith crowd wherein Faith = intellectual assent to the concept of Christ as Saviour and nothing else.

Correct, I noticed that our friends completely neglected to offer a real rebuttal to this. Just a "no it isn't".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The major difference is context. The 2 Cor. passage is talking to and about believers only ("We") and the Revelation 20 passage is talking about non-believers. 

 

We agree that rewards are based on works. 

No no no, it is not. Is the bible only for believers? I mean you guys really do love to strain for anything to dismiss what is actually being talked about.

[danielwoods]

No no no, it is not. Is the bible only for believers? I mean you guys really do love to strain for anything to dismiss what is actually being talked about.

 

Did I say that the Bible was only for believers? 

 

I was actually talking about a specific passage, that was addressed to believers only, where the subject was believers only. 

[Vance]

Right. So in your system not all believers will be with the Father.

"All believers" is an interesting description for you to be using.

1) The devils believe.

2) Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess (See Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10)

I can't find anything like that in the NT.

Perhaps you are not looking in the right place.

Plus, there is this,

1 Tim 2:4 (God)Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So, it is God's will for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Does God get what He wants?

In the NT, Jesus states that the Father is in him, and he is in us. No separation for any believers.

Yes, and I am in my wife and family and they are in me. What is your point?

[Vance]

We were talking about a specific passage in Revelation, that is why I asked. 

 

What separates those who have eternal life and those who don't? Jesus said, "Knowing the only true God…" That's it. Relationship with God directly.

I notice that you don't address the verses I quoted. They, also, are direct quotes from Jesus. 

So, address the questions about the verses I quoted (John 5:28-29)

Failure to address them will be considered an implicit admission that they support our position and contradict yours, completely, totally and finally.

 

The passage in Romans was clearly describing non-believers,

False, as I demonstrated. They were written to and described members of the Church in Rome.

[Vance]

No condemnation, because we have "put on Christ" and have his righteousness as a result, so our judgement is to determine our rewards only.

It would be nice if you could support this concept with scripture. As far as I can find to "put on Christ" is simply being baptized. And the concept of putting on Christ's righteousness is nowhere to be found. I guess it is just another one of those Evangelical fabricated things.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Did I say that the Bible was only for believers? 

 

I was actually talking about a specific passage, that was addressed to believers only, where the subject was believers only. 

No you didn't but you like to constantly cherry pick when it suits your needs to say "this was only for believers, that was only for non believers". Esp when context does not dictate it. GG already rebutted your response that it was "only for unbelievers".

[Vance]

Are Mormons really not Christian?

[Garden Girl]

The major difference is context. The 2 Cor. passage is talking to and about believers only ("We") and the Revelation 20 passage is talking about non-believers. 

 

We agree that rewards are based on works. 

 

danielwoods...

What is it I'm missing when the scriptures tell us that all... repeat, all... which according to the dictionary means "the whole number" "the utmost possible" "the whole number, amount, or quantity of" i.e., all of mankind...  which would include believers and non-believers alike, will ultimately stand before the judgment seat of Christ.  It makes no difference... we all will ultimately arrive at the same place... the judgment seat of Christ... there the books (plural) will be opened and all will be judged (and rewarded in your words) according to what is written in the books... i.e., their works... 

 

GG

Edited September 15, 2014 by Garden Girl

[danielwoods]

"All believers" is an interesting description for you to be using.

1) The devils believe.

2) Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess (See Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10)

Perhaps you are not looking in the right place.

Plus, there is this,

1 Tim 2:4 (God)Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So, it is God's will for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Does God get what He wants?

Yes, and I am in my wife and family and they are in me. What is your point?

 

Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living waterwill flow from within them.” (John 7:37,38)

 

All the believers were together and had everything in common. (Acts 2:44)

All the believers were one in heart and mind. (Acts 4:32)

 

The use of "believers" is from the New Testament. 

 

Does God get what he wants? No. All will not be saved, or believers.

 

 

My point is that the idea of different kingdoms in heaven (as was just described), does not agree with what is taught in the NT where all believers will be with the Father and Son and Spirit. 

[danielwoods]

I notice that you don't address the verses I quoted. They, also, are direct quotes from Jesus. 

So, address the questions about the verses I quoted (John 5:28-29)

Failure to address them will be considered an implicit admission that they support our position and contradict yours, completely, totally and finally.

 

False, as I demonstrated. They were written to and described members of the Church in Rome.

 

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

 

Vance, if you put John 5 in context, notice what it says. He who believes will not be judged. Then later he describes having the authority to judge, which for the believers is for reward, and for the non-believers for condemnation. 

[danielwoods]

It would be nice if you could support this concept with scripture. As far as I can find to "put on Christ" is simply being baptized. And the concept of putting on Christ's righteousness is nowhere to be found. I guess it is just another one of those Evangelical fabricated things.

 

Romans 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

 

Putting on Christ is simply having his spirit inside us. 

[Vance]

Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living waterwill flow from within them.” (John 7:37,38)

 

All the believers were together and had everything in common. (Acts 2:44)

All the believers were one in heart and mind. (Acts 4:32)

 

The use of "believers" is from the New Testament. 

Irrelevant.

 

Does God get what he wants? No. All will not be saved, or believers.

Why not? Is He not powerful enough to do what He wants?

I think your problem is that you don't know what the word "saved" really means. Saved from what?

 

My point is that the idea of different kingdoms in heaven (as was just described), does not agree with what is taught in the NT where all believers will be with the Father and Son and Spirit.

Another falsehood.

Jesus taught,

"in my Fathers house are many mansions".

Paul taught that he was caught up to the third heaven. For there to be a third heaven, there has to be a first and second one.

Paul also taught that there are at least three glories in the resurrection.

[danielwoods]

danielwoods...

What is it I'm missing when the scriptures tell us that all... repeat, all... which according to the dictionary means "the whole number" "the utmost possible" "the whole number, amount, or quantity of" i.e., all of mankind...  which would include believers and non-believers alike, will ultimately stand before the judgment seat of Christ.  It makes no difference... we all will ultimately arrive at the same place... the judgment seat of Christ... there the books (plural) will be opened and all will be judged (and rewarded in your words) according to what is written in the books... i.e., their works... 

 

GG

 

All doesn't always mean all. If we are talking about all Men, or all Women, or all Children or All boats or something, then the category is limited by the context. 

 

In 2 Cor. 5 the context limits the "all" to just believers. 

[danielwoods]

All the believers were one in heart and mind. (Acts 4:32)

 

The use of "believers" is from the New Testament. 

Irrelevant.

 

Why not? Is He not powerful enough to do what He wants?

I think your problem is that you don't know what the word "saved" really means. Saved from what?

 

Another falsehood.

Jesus taught,

"in my Fathers house are many mansions".

Paul taught that he was caught up to the third heaven. For there to be a third heaven, there has to be a first and second one.

Paul also taught that there are at least three glories in the resurrection.

 

Note that you haven't demonstrated from the NT That there are three separate kingdoms where the Father isn't in fellowship with all three, nor the son, etc. 

[Vance]

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

 

Vance, if you put John 5 in context, notice what it says. He who believes will not be judged. Then later he describes having the authority to judge, which for the believers is for reward, and for the non-believers for condemnation.

John 5:24 NIRV

"What I'm about to tell you is true. Anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He will not be found guilty. He has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24 NIV

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24 NLT

"I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

John 5:24 MSG

"It's urgent that you listen carefully to this: Anyone here who believes what I am saying right now and aligns himself with the Father, who has in fact put me in charge, has at this very moment the real, lasting life and is no longer condemned to be an outsider. This person has taken a giant step from the world of the dead to the world of the living

John 5:24 WBT

Verily, verily, I say to you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but hath passed from death to life.

John 5:24 TMB

Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:24 WYC

Truly, truly, I say to you, that he that heareth my word, and believeth in him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and he cometh not into doom, but passeth from death into life [hath everlasting life, and cometh not into doom, but passed from death into life].

Your conclusion is not valid. It is not that they are not judged, but rather they are not found worthy of punishment.

[Vance]

Romans 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Thus supporting what I said above.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

You failed to notice all of the IFs in there.

Putting on Christ is simply having his spirit inside us.

Another falsehood. This one is so easy. The ONLY verse in the Bible that says "put on Christ" is this one.

Gal 3:17 For as many of you as HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO Christ have put on Christ.

It is Baptism.

[Vance]

Note that you haven't demonstrated from the NT That there are three separate kingdoms where the Father isn't in fellowship with all three, nor the son, etc.

I have demonstrated that there are three heavens and three glories. That is all that is necessary.

Quibbling over the semantics of "heavens/glories" versus "kingdoms" is just that, quibbling.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Vance

[MormonFreeThinker]

I have demonstrated 

 

Tim Ball was never a scientist, he was a professor of geography, not science. Dishonesty is not a Christian virtue, and Tim Ball is not demonstrating a Christian attitude. 

[Vance]

Obviously you are operating under the delusion that I have to have language in the Bible to support all of my beliefs. We do not subscribe to the false doctrine known as "sola scriptura".

[Vance]

Tim Ball was never a scientist, he was a professor of geography, not science. Dishonesty is not a Christian virtue, and Tim Ball is not demonstrating a Christian attitude.

What is this off topic and totally irreverent babbling?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

All doesn't always mean all. If we are talking about all Men, or all Women, or all Children or All boats or something, then the category is limited by the context. 

 

In 2 Cor. 5 the context limits the "all" to just believers. 

Translation: "All" means all except when it doesn't fit with my theology.  Thanks for that admission. Now we can go on.