Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Canadaigua]

Faith without works it dead.

 

What is "dead" in the verse that you are quoting?  Faith.  

 

Those who do not have faith will not be saved.  This verse is a mantra among Mormons but it you actually stop and think what it says it doesn't say that works contribute for salvation.

[Vance]

Not in the sense of the NT "works". It's a change of attitude.

Actually, it would be more correct to say, not in the sense of Paul's usage of "works". All other NT authors used "works" to mean good deeds/works of righteousness/loving your neighbor/obedience to God. When uses "works" differently. He uses it to mean the "works of the law of Moses".

It doesn't matter how many times this is explained to them, it just doesn't take with some of our EV friends.

[JLHPROF]

Does no one consider Revelation 20:12 and 13??

 

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

 

GG

 

Edit to add:  I did not read all of this thread (34 pages!) and I'm sure someone else probably gave the above quotes so I'm sorry if I have been redundant...

 

There are dozens of biblical quotes showing that works are necessary to salvation.  I provided a bunch, Vance provided a bunch.  You just provided an awesome one I missed.

But people see what they want to see, and limit themselves to a misinterpretation of Paul.

 

Entire religions have sprung forth from one solitary verse of scripture.  If people want to hang their eternal condition on a misinterpreting of one apostles words they can go for it.

[Vance]

Loaded questions like this make me leery. 

 

Of course we agree that repentance doesn't occur in a vacuum, there is always a context. But, ultimitely repentance is simply changing one's mind, the actions that follow are a response to the grace and love of God in our hearts when we understand what was done for us.

Actually that is not accurate. Repentance, in the Christian context, is much more than the simple Greek definition of changing ones mind.

[Vance]

What is "dead" in the verse that you are quoting?  Faith.  

 

Those who do not have faith will not be saved.  This verse is a mantra among Mormons but it you actually stop and think what it says it doesn't say that works contribute for salvation.

It says that true faith is not independent from good works. That works are an integral part of faith. You can't have faith without works. You demonstrate your faith by your works. With your works you prove to yourself, and to God that you are worthy the gift of eternal life.

You continue to ignore ALL of the words of Jesus that clearly and plainly contradict your position. If the words of Jesus don't convince you then mine won't either.

[danielwoods]

1.Sorry this is not a loaded question. I did not ask you if you stopped beating your wife. I am using your logic to show that you have not thought this out.

 

 

2.So you would say that this is not a work, how? It clearly doesn't happen on it's own and that real effort is required on our part.

 

According to the NT repentance is a change of mind. I suppose someone might have commitment phobia, and for them they might sweat a little, but no, changing ones mind doesn't involve work as the NT defines work. Maybe you could show me how I'm not thinking this through enough and explain how changing one's mind is actually work?

[Canadaigua]

Does no one consider Revelation 20:12 and 13??

 

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

 

GG

 

Both believers and unbelievers will face judgement before God.  If salvation was based on our works then every one would fall short and end up in Hell.  Each person who comes before God is guilty and if that person has not placed his faith in Christ then they will be deserving of the judgement that they receive.  Those who have placed their faith in Christ will be saved from the penalty that they would otherwise deserve. 

[JLHPROF]

 

Does no one consider Revelation 20:12 and 13??

 

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

 

GG

 

Both believers and unbelievers will face judgement before God.  If salvation was based on our works then every one would fall short and end up in Hell.  Each person who comes before God is guilty and if that person has not placed his faith in Christ then they will be deserving of the judgement that they receive.  Those who have placed their faith in Christ will be saved from the penalty that they would otherwise deserve.

 

I love how you answer the scriptural quote by telling us it doesn't mean what it says.  The scripture says they are judged according to their works.  You say they will only be judged according to their works if they don't believe in Christ.  That's not what the scripture says.

I'll stick with the scripture.

[Anakin7]

       And by the way the greek word for Faith [True Faith] that accepts/accesses/activates True Grace is pistis which has approx 25 definitianal meanings anchiently -  commitment/devotion/faithfulness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust to name a few. All are words of Covenant as with a marriage.

 

In His debt/Grace

       Anakin7

LDS Kryptonian Jedi

Edited September 12, 2014 by Anakin7

[Canadaigua]

I love how you answer the scriptural quote by telling us it doesn't mean what it says.  The scripture says they are judged according to their works.  You say they will only be judged according to their works if they don't believe in Christ.  That's not what the scripture says.

I'll stick with the scripture.

Let's assume that you are right for sake of discussion.  If this were the case then the basis for Heaven and Hell would be your works--which would mean perfect obedience to the commandments as the requirement for salvation/exaltation.  Is that the standard that you are using for the final judgement?

Edited September 12, 2014 by Canadaigua

[danielwoods]

Does no one consider Revelation 20:12 and 13??

 

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

 

GG

 

Edit to add:  I did not read all of this thread (34 pages!) and I'm sure someone else probably gave the above quotes so I'm sorry if I have been redundant...

 

I'm not sure how the LDS interpret this section of scripture, but evangelicals generally see this as a judgement of the wicked. Here's why:

 

Believers in Jesus are already in Heaven.

Notice in Rev. 19:6 "A great Multitude" these are believers because they are wearing "Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people." (verse 8 )

 

Then Jesus on a white horse (vs. 11) shows up with the armies of Heaven following him "dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (vs. 14) A reference to believers again, because of the reference to fine linen and white and clean.

 

So, by the time you get to Rev. 20:12, you're talking about non-believers, not believers. Who are judged according to their works, because they didn't accept the work of Christ for their lives. 

 

 

https://www.raptureready.com/abc/great_white_throne.html

Edited September 12, 2014 by danielwoods

[Canadaigua]

I love how you answer the scriptural quote by telling us it doesn't mean what it says.  The scripture says they are judged according to their works.  You say they will only be judged according to their works if they don't believe in Christ.  That's not what the scripture says.

I'll stick with the scripture.

Your description above about what I believe is "kinda" right--so let me restate it in a different way so we can understand each other.  We ALL will stand before God and give an accounting of the things that we have done i.e. our works.  However our final destination is based on whether or not we have trusted in Christ to save us.

[JLHPROF]

 

I'm not sure how the LDS interpret this section of scripture, but evangelicals generally see this as a judgement of the wicked. Here's why:

 

Believers in Jesus are already in Heaven.

Notice in Rev. 19:6 "A great Multitude" these are believers because they are wearing "Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people." (verse 8 )

 

Then Jesus on a white horse (vs. 11) shows up with the armies of Heaven following him "dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (vs. 14) A reference to believers again, because of the reference to fine linen and white and clean.

 

So, by the time you get to Rev. 20:12, you're talking about non-believers, not believers. Who are judged according to their works, because they didn't accept the work of Christ for their lives. 

 

 

https://www.raptureready.com/abc/great_white_throne.html

 

This completely ignores "another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

 

Who has their name written in the lamb's book of life that are judged according to their works? The righteous who followed Christ.

It clearly shows that the righteous will be judged according to their works.

 

- Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

- Revelation 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

- Phillipians 4:3 nd I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

[Canadaigua]

 

I'm not sure how the LDS interpret this section of scripture, but evangelicals generally see this as a judgement of the wicked. 

 

 

Thanks for posting that because that is the way I see this section of scripture as well (i.e. Great White Throne). Those who are believers appear at the judgement seat of Christ and have already been resurrected at this point and it wouldn't make a lot of sense referring to those as "dead".  

Also in the section of scripture quoted LDS usually leave out verse 15 which is the basis for being thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Revelation 20:15

And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Canadaigua

[danielwoods]

It says that true faith is not independent from good works. That works are an integral part of faith. You can't have faith without works. You demonstrate your faith by your works. With your works you prove to yourself, and to God that you are worthy the gift of eternal life.

You continue to ignore ALL of the words of Jesus that clearly and plainly contradict your position. If the words of Jesus don't convince you then mine won't either.

 

That's an interesting way of saying it. "Worthy [of] the gift of eternal life."

 

Won't find that statement in the NT!

 

The only one worthy is Jesus, we are all unworthy yet, while we were yet sinners, he died for us, in our place and took the punishment for our sin. Not based on our worthiness, but rather based on our willingness to simply accept his gift of life to us. 

[Canadaigua]

This completely ignores "another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

The basis sending a person to the lake of fire is whether or not his name is in the book of life, not works. 

[danielwoods]

This completely ignores "another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

 

Who has their name written in the lamb's book of life that are judged according to their works? The righteous who followed Christ.

It clearly shows that the righteous will be judged according to their works.

 

- Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

- Revelation 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

- Phillipians 4:3 nd I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

 

I didn't ignore that part rather, as I said, the chronology of that passage points out that the believers aren't apart of this judgement. 

[JLHPROF]

The basis sending a person to the lake of fire is whether or not his name is in the book of life, not works. 

 

NOT what the scripture says.  It says that the Book of Life is opened (established as containing the names of the righteous) and all the dead people (everyone by then I should think) are judged out of those things written in the books according to their works.

 

How much clearer does it need to be.  The righteous are judged according to their works and get their name kept.  The unrighteous are cast out and their name blotted out.  Based on what?  The works written in the book.

Edited September 13, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Flyonthewall]

Sure.  You brought up Matthew 19 to support your belief that works are required for exaltation.

One of many. If you have followed this thread, you have been shown many many verses that show works are indeed part of salvation.

I have already stated that there are dozens of passages that clearly teach that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and our works do not contribute to our salvation.

So you have stated, but have shown only one that can be taken that way IF many other verses are ignored.

This is a perfect example of how your gospel and my gospel are completely opposite of each other.  So lets take a look at the verses in Matthew 19 and see if they really support your position OR is it possible that Christ was trying to send a different message than the one that you assume that he is sending.  I will also include the parallel passage in Mark.

 

Matthew 19 

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”

17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,

19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

 

Mark 10

17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’ ”

20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.”

21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

 

The first thing that jumps out from these verses is that the man does not refer to Jesus as Lord, rather he sees him as simply a "teacher".  Jesus then replies “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.  Christ's response here is extremely important for a few reasons.  I am sure that you would agree that Christ is perfect so certainly Christ is "good".  So why did Christ say this to this guy?  I think that he was trying to point out to him that he is God and that this guy didn't seem to catch that.  Let's start with this before moving on to another important point with this verse.

Ok, I will walk with you on this, go on.

[Flyonthewall]

What is "dead" in the verse that you are quoting?  Faith.  

 

Those who do not have faith will not be saved.  This verse is a mantra among Mormons but it you actually stop and think what it says it doesn't say that works contribute for salvation.

If you would but read the entire book of James, your question is answered right there.

 

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Verse 19 says the devils also believe, are they saved? What do you think is different between the devils that believe and others that only believe? The answer is in the very next verse.... WORKS!

Vers 26 is a very convincing analogy, wouldn't you say.

Look at James 4:17

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The key you are missing/ignoring when you cite passages that we are saved by faith alone, is that fail includes works, because without it, it is dead.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Flyonthewall

[Flyonthewall]

duplicate post

Edited September 13, 2014 by Flyonthewall

[Canadaigua]

NOT what the scripture says.  It says that the Book of Life is opened (established as containing the names of the righteous) and all the dead people (everyone by then I should think) are judged out of those things written in the books according to their works.

 

How much clearer does it need to be.  The righteous are judged according to their works and get their name kept.  The unrighteous are cast out and their name blotted out.  Based on what?  The works written in the book.

So I can better understand your position--with respect to this section of scripture--can you tell me more about the "Book of Life".  Do you believe that every person who is ever born has his name in this book and it gets deleted if they are bad, or nobody has their name in this book and it gets added and then possibly deleted.

[halconero]

What is "dead" in the verse that you are quoting? Faith.

Those who do not have faith will not be saved. This verse is a mantra among Mormons but it you actually stop and think what it says it doesn't say that works contribute for salvation.

Nah, it pretty much does say that. The epistle of James is addressed to a caricature of Paul, or those who have misinterpreted Paul's epistles. It's a response to the Saved by Faith crowd wherein Faith = intellectual assent to the concept of Christ as Saviour and nothing else.

[ERayR]

Let's assume that you are right for sake of discussion.  If this were the case then the basis for Heaven and Hell would be your works--which would mean perfect obedience to the commandments as the requirement for salvation/exaltation.  Is that the standard that you are using for the final judgement?

Edited September 13, 2014 by ERayR

[Canadaigua]

If you would but read the entire book of James, your question is answered right there.

 

Verse 19 says the devils also believe, are they saved? 

Salvation by faith in Christ applies to humans--not to angelic beings such angels/demons.