Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

One thing I think is a sticking point... Evangelicals think their idea of "salvation" corresponds with our idea of exhalation - I have come to the conclusion that it does not.

It would more accurately correspond to all 3 of the kingdoms of glory on our side of things.

You have a dichotomy - heaven and hell. We do not. So if you want to align your belief of all that do not go to hell go to heaven, then it must line up with our belief of all who do not go to Outer Darkness go to a kingdom of Glory.

Salvation is a free gift brought about by the atonement, but our reward within salvation is based on the judgment of our actions/works as mentioned in Revelation.

Essentially, your belief on this topic is very simplistic and rudimentary, our belief is more nuanced.

 

Please, if you don't mind. Which reference in Revelation mentions a judgement of believers actions/works?

 

 

I did not say completely different, but mis-aligned. As I said, Your belief is simplistic, not as nuanced as ours.

Your belief is encompassed in ours.

In our belief, the Lower 2 kingdoms are still Kingdoms of Glory, and all Glory comes from God.

 

 

However, the lower kingdoms don't live with God, and the highest does, is this correct? 

[coolrok7]

Anakin7 (post #513), the term "Christian" (used three times in the New Testament) while not used as often as the term "saint" is, is just as valid Biblically speaking. Other terms such as disciple, believer are used as well.

 

You refer to yourself as a saint but that doesn't necessarily make you one if you hold to non-Biblical doctrine and deny specific essential Biblical doctrine which is what Mormonism does.

 

As you consider yourself a saint, this is how your church represents the "other Christians" of Christianity:

 

Following the death of the apostles, revelation ceased. The authority of God was no longer among men. Christianity sickened and died. In time, a new religion grew up in its place-a religion that professed to be Jesus Christ's Church but which in reality was a conglomerate of pagan worship and Greek philosophy, "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." . . .that eventually led to the complete apostasy of the true church and the eventual creation of an apostate religion that has been responsible for the extermination of Messiah's true followers and the persecution of his chosen people, the Jews. . . .(APOSASY AND RESTORATION pamphlet, p.9)

 

A brief reference by a General Authority to the nickname of "Mormon" (Believers were called Christians as followers of Jesus Christ):

 

I would like to speak of the institution. . .The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, sometimes known as the Mormon Church. That is not the Church's correct name, it is only a nickname derived from our belief in the Book of Mormon, . . .(Elder Russell M. Nelson, An Apostle's Testimony pamphlet, p.2)

 

There is also this (under the heading of I Have a Question in The Ensign):

 

. . .the name of the Church on the title pages of the first three printings o the revelations: "The Church of Christ" (Book of Commandments, 1833), "The Church of the Latter-day Saints" (Doctrine and Covenants, 1835), and "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Doctrine and Covenants, 1844). (January 1979)

 

In the D&C it is stated:

 

To meet the opponents of the church, both in public and private-

Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you in public and private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest. Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. (71:7-eight)

 

The "strong reasons" I would say aren't against the Lord but what Joseph Smith had to say, not of the Lord but of his own imaginations. This in place of what the Lord has spoken, recorded in the Bible (both Old and New Testaments), giving warning about those who would attempt speak for God without His permission in which He says not to go after them.

 

"Christian doctrine" is Christian. Dr. Stephen R. Robinson refers to the three times Christian is used in his book asking the question, "Are Mormons Christians?" The question should be, "Is Mormon doctrine Christian?" Mormon doctrine consists of some Christian teaching but interjects things not Christian, twists other things which I believe ultimately undermines it. This is what we are addressing in regards to the thread question.

 

[halconero]

This verse does not teach that salvation is by works.  If you think that it does please point it out for me.

 

Sure, no problem. A holistic view of that verse embeds it in the surrounding chapter.

 

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works.23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

 

So, in a way, I guess you're right. Justification is not the sole province of works, but neither is it a modernized view of faith either.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Where have I done that?

 

I agree with you, we shouldn't misrepresent other religious beliefs. 

[LittleNipper]

To whom was Jesus speaking?

[LittleNipper]

To whom was Jesus speaking?

[halconero]

To whom was Jesus speaking?

 

He spoke to a lot of people, but mainly Jews.

[LittleNipper]

No, what I mean is that you cannot always apply everything that Jesus and others said verbatim unless you consider the targeted listener. In other words, was Jesus speaking to a friend/disciple? Was Jesus speaking to a temple priest? Was Jesus speaking to a believer or an unsaved individual? Many people take what is being said way out of context. A good example is when Jesus said, "...you are gods..." He was speaking directly to judges from the temple. And the biblical reference refers to leaders who have been placed into a position of judgment. They were suppose to be acting on God's behalf. They are not GOD but as the angels they are messengers. Jesus was reminding them in a tongue and cheek way of this.  The very same goes for verses regarding works. A saved individual is being told what his duties are. An unsaved individual is told what God does for him. People tend to mix everything up, and while certainly all verses should be studies and considered, they need to be understood in context. A person does not go to heaven by his own works. A saved individual's works reveal whom he serves, and should make him a witness of the Spirit to those seeking God.

Edited September 14, 2014 by LittleNipper

[Storm Rider]

No, what I mean is that you cannot always apply everything that Jesus and others said verbatim unless you consider the targeted listener. In other words, was Jesus speaking to a friend/disciple? Was Jesus speaking to a temple priest? Was Jesus speaking to a believer or an unsaved individual? Many people take what is being said way out of context. A good example is when Jesus said, "...you are gods..." He was speaking directly to judges from the temple. And the biblical reference refers to leaders who have been placed into a position of judgment. They were suppose to be acting on God's behalf. They are not GOD but as the angels they are messengers. Jesus was reminding them in a tongue and cheek way of this.  The very same goes for verses regarding works. A saved individual is being told what his duties are. An unsaved individual is told what God does for him. People tend to mix everything up, and while certainly all verses should be studies and considered, they need to be understood in context. A person does not go to heaven by his own works. A saved individual's works reveal whom he serves, and should make him a witness of the Spirit to those seeking God.

 

Are you talking about John 10:34, or Psalms 82:6, or Isaiah 41:23, or Psalms 82?  Context is everything when understanding scripture, but you are not just talking about one verse in the example you gave above.  Even more difficult is when other verses are added to the conversation then it becomes even more complex.  Then it is even more complex if you introduce the discussion of the early Church Fathers that discussed Deification and/or Theosis.  

 

Not a single person here or in the Church of Jesus Christ thinks that anyone goes to heaven by their own works alone.  It is glaringly obvious that Jesus Christ is the only way to return to God. 

Edited September 14, 2014 by Storm Rider

[halconero]

No, what I mean is that you cannot always apply everything that Jesus and others said verbatim unless you consider the targeted listener. In other words, was Jesus speaking to a friend/disciple? Was Jesus speaking to a temple priest? Was Jesus speaking to a believer or an unsaved individual? Many people take what is being said way out of context. A good example is when Jesus said, "...you are gods..." He was speaking directly to judges from the temple. And the biblical reference refers to leaders who have been placed into a position of judgment. They were suppose to be acting on God's behalf. They are not GOD but as the angels they are messengers. Jesus was reminding them in a tongue and cheek way of this. The very same goes for verses regarding works. A saved individual is being told what his duties are. An unsaved individual is told what God does for him. People tend to mix everything up, and while certainly all verses should be studies and considered, they need to be understood in context. A person does not go to heaven by his own works. A saved individual's works reveal whom he serves, and should make him a witness of the Spirit to those seeking God.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint does not preach that man merits heaven by his own power. It preaches an interplay of grace and action, and that the Atoning power of Christ not only provides forgiveness, but the strength to ensure in Christ, which enduring includes living as Christ taught. Yes, we believe it necessary to live the commandments of Christ, but if it is him who gives us strength to follow, who instructs us both through scripture and revelation on how to do so, and who forgives us when we fall short, can we really claim that it is us who are meriting heaven. God forbid.

[Vance]

You do know that Jesus taught,

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Matt 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Paul seemed to think that perfection was possible,

1 Cor 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are PERFECT: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Even Paul commanded it,

2 Cor 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. BE PERFECT, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Paul describes the organization,

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the PERFECTING of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Why is it that some continue to misunderstand our position on perfection.  It is the same position as the early saints.

 

[boblloyd91]

Why is it that some continue to misunderstand our position on perfection.  It is the same position as the early saints.

Probably because they think because we follow a "false gospel" our thoughts, feelings and experiences are not valid and are merely souls needing to be saved. On a side note I find it interesting that in the eyes of our Evangelical critics, one is only Christian if that individual subscribes to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. There are good arguments that these two doctrines are themselves theological innovations that came into being with Luther.

[danielwoods]

It says that true faith is not independent from good works. That works are an integral part of faith. You can't have faith without works. You demonstrate your faith by your works. With your works you prove to yourself, and to God that you are worthy the gift of eternal life.

 

 

Probably because they think because we follow a "false gospel" our thoughts, feelings and experiences are not valid and are merely souls needing to be saved. On a side note I find it interesting that in the eyes of our Evangelical critics, one is only Christian if that individual subscribes to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. There are good arguments that these two doctrines are themselves theological innovations that came into being with Luther.

 

No where does it state what Vance stated above, that our good works prove to God that we are worthy of the gift of eternal life. 

 

If you have a gospel that states that, then it certainly isn't the gospel derived from the NT. 

[Flyonthewall]

Please, if you don't mind. Which reference in Revelation mentions a judgement of believers actions/works?

You know very well which reference in Revelation... and before you try to state that the righteous will not be judged, look at Romans 2:5-11. It is plain as day that All men will be judged.

 

However, the lower kingdoms don't live with God, and the highest does, is this correct?

They are still kingdoms of God. As I stated before, our concept on this is more advanced than yours, mostly because we have more information about it. Its like comparing addition & subtraction to calculus or even algebra. Those that only know addition & subtaction will think somebody talking about algebraic functions or calculus is talking about a different math... and it may sound that way but in reality it is not.

[ERayR]

No where does it state what Vance stated above, that our good works prove to God that we are worthy of the gift of eternal life. 

 

If you have a gospel that states that, then it certainly isn't the gospel derived from the NT. 

 

If you have a gospel that rejects the idea that works are necessary then why do we have a judgement?

[Flyonthewall]

No, what I mean is that you cannot always apply everything that Jesus and others said verbatim unless you consider the targeted listener. In other words, was Jesus speaking to a friend/disciple? Was Jesus speaking to a temple priest? Was Jesus speaking to a believer or an unsaved individual? Many people take what is being said way out of context. A good example is when Jesus said, "...you are gods..." He was speaking directly to judges from the temple. And the biblical reference refers to leaders who have been placed into a position of judgment. They were suppose to be acting on God's behalf. They are not GOD but as the angels they are messengers. Jesus was reminding them in a tongue and cheek way of this.  The very same goes for verses regarding works. A saved individual is being told what his duties are. An unsaved individual is told what God does for him. People tend to mix everything up, and while certainly all verses should be studies and considered, they need to be understood in context. A person does not go to heaven by his own works. A saved individual's works reveal whom he serves, and should make him a witness of the Spirit to those seeking God.

The reference in John He was speaking the Jews.

The reason he cited the scripture from Psalms was in defense to a charge of blasphemy... Here is more to that scriptural passage:

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Notice the scripture calls them gods unto whom the word of God came?...

I do not see a "just kidding" anywhere in there or anything to indicate it was "tongue in cheek".

Blasphemy was a serious accusation and this was his defense for it.

[danielwoods]

You know very well which reference in Revelation... and before you try to state that the righteous will not be judged, look at Romans 2:5-11. It is plain as day that All men will be judged.

 

So, I asked for a reference where all believers will be judged in Revelation. The reference in Revelation we were talking about isn't about believers. That's why I asked. 

 

Romans 2:5-11 is addressed to non-believers as seen in verse 5, "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart..." and then notice later in Romans 8, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

You are correct, that all will be "judged" but not in the same way. Believers will be judged for the purpose of giving out rewards, "¹⁰ For we [believers] must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (2 Cor. 5)

 

They are still kingdoms of God. As I stated before, our concept on this is more advanced than yours, mostly because we have more information about it. Its like comparing addition & subtraction to calculus or even algebra. Those that only know addition & subtaction will think somebody talking about algebraic functions or calculus is talking about a different math... and it may sound that way but in reality it is not.

I am still curious the difference between them. It's my impression (maybe I'm mistaken) that the lower kingdoms aren't in direct fellowship with the Father. 

[danielwoods]

If you have a gospel that rejects the idea that works are necessary then why do we have a judgement?

 

As I pointed out in the previous post, there is no condemnation to those in Christ. That is the context for the believer. No condemnation, because we have "put on Christ" and have his righteousness as a result, so our judgement is to determine our rewards only. 

[Storm Rider]

As I pointed out in the previous post, there is no condemnation to those in Christ. That is the context for the believer. No condemnation, because we have "put on Christ" and have his righteousness as a result, so our judgement is to determine our rewards only. 

 

Do you have a reference from your church that clearly states that the Judgment have no effect on the Christian and is only used to determine what rewards will be received.  Also, can you describe rewards?

[Flyonthewall]

So, I asked for a reference where all believers will be judged in Revelation. The reference in Revelation we were talking about isn't about believers. That's why I asked. 

 

Romans 2:5-11 is addressed to non-believers as seen in verse 5, "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart..." and then notice later in Romans 8, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

You are correct, that all will be "judged" but not in the same way. Believers will be judged for the purpose of giving out rewards, "¹⁰ For we [believers] must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (2 Cor. 5)

Ah... now we are getting somewhere. Of course everyone will not be judged in the same way, that is the very essence of what I am trying to say. Judgment is not only condemnation. All will be judged according to their works/deeds/actions - no two people will have lived the exact same life.

I am still curious the difference between them. It's my impression (maybe I'm mistaken) that the lower kingdoms aren't in direct fellowship with the Father.

The Father presides in the Celestial, the Son presides in the Terestial, and authorized representatives preside in the Telestial.

[Garden Girl]

 

You are correct, that all will be "judged" but not in the same way. Believers will be judged for the purpose of giving out rewards, "¹⁰ For we [believers] must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (2 Cor. 5) 

 

danielwoods...

this clearly states that all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, even believers according to you, so that each may receive (at the judgment seat from Christ) what is due us based on the things we have done while in the body, whether good or bad...   so "believers" will receive "rewards" for what they have done, i.e. works...

 

 

As I pointed out in the previous post, there is no condemnation to those in Christ. That is the context for the believer. No condemnation, because we have "put on Christ" and have his righteousness as a result, so our judgement is to determine our rewards only. 

 

And what are those "rewards" based on??  The things we have done!  Works...

 

 

Do you have a reference from your church that clearly states that the Judgment have no effect on the Christian and is only used to determine what rewards will be received.  Also, can you describe rewards?

 

Yes, but the "rewards" are based on what all have done while in the body... our works... done in our everyday life, whether they be good or bad...

I don't see this as being any different than the Revelation statement...  all having to appear before Christ's judgment seat means all... (all, which encompasses everyone).

 

GG

Edited September 15, 2014 by Garden Girl

[Vance]

This verse does not teach that salvation is by works.

That is the common LIE taught by anti-Mormons.

[Vance]

So, I asked for a reference where all believers will be judged in Revelation. The reference in Revelation we were talking about isn't about believers. That's why I asked.

Why limit it to Revelation? Why not to the Bible? Could it be this for just one of many examples.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Does "all" mean all? What separates those that are resurrected to eternal life and those that are not?

 

Romans 2:5-11 is addressed to non-believers

Talk about a blatant falsehood. The epistle was written to Rom 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:"

Apparently some of the saints in Rome were less than perfect.

I notice that you skipped over the content of a few verses. Like verse 6 "to EVERY MAN according to his deeds". Does "EVERY MAN" only refer to the "non-believers" among the Christians in Rome?

 

I am still curious the difference between them. It's my impression (maybe I'm mistaken) that the lower kingdoms aren't in direct fellowship with the Father.

Moving the goal posts I see.

First it was that they don't have fellowship with God, and now you are limiting it to "the Father". Do Jesus and the Holy Ghost now not qualify as God?

Edited September 15, 2014 by Vance

[danielwoods]

Do you have a reference from your church that clearly states that the Judgment have no effect on the Christian and is only used to determine what rewards will be received.  Also, can you describe rewards?

 

No. Only the scripture I used above, and there are others like Matt. 25:31-46. 

 

Can I describe the rewards? No. Not much is said about them. 

 

Ah... now we are getting somewhere. Of course everyone will not be judged in the same way, that is the very essence of what I am trying to say. Judgment is not only condemnation. All will be judged according to their works/deeds/actions - no two people will have lived the exact same life.

The Father presides in the Celestial, the Son presides in the Terestial, and authorized representatives preside in the Telestial.

 

Right. So in your system not all believers will be with the Father. I can't find anything like that in the NT. In the NT, Jesus states that the Father is in him, and he is in us. No separation for any believers. 

[danielwoods]

danielwoods...

this clearly states that all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, even believers according to you, so that each may receive (at the judgment seat from Christ) what is due us based on the things we have done while in the body, whether good or bad...   so "believers" will receive "rewards" for what they have done, i.e. works...

 

 

 

And what are those "rewards" based on??  The things we have done!  Works...

 

 

 

Yes, but the "rewards" are based on what all have done while in the body... our works... done in our everyday life, whether they be good or bad...

I don't see this as being any different than the Revelation statement...  all having to appear before Christ's judgment seat means all... (all, which encompasses everyone).

 

GG

 

The major difference is context. The 2 Cor. passage is talking to and about believers only ("We") and the Revelation 20 passage is talking about non-believers. 

 

We agree that rewards are based on works. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by danielwoods